WinterH

Means it's so boring actual fighter pilots using it wrote and performed a song about how sad it is, "Dos Gringos - JDAM Blues" now, don't get me wrong, I do think there's cool tricks to learn, and perform a few times without getting bored with them. And you may not ever get bored with them, which is awesome , but just thought it's funny that it IS and actual song by actual fighter pilots who say that it is actually boring as hell

As is meant to be:) There, fixed it for you :)) Both sides have their tastes of course. And both can be blind to arguments from the side. They're both right in their own ways. I can enjoy modern aircraft in short bursts, before getting utterly bored of the experience. And still find enjoyment in MiG-21 8 years into its release. Apache is cool and neat, I guess, but it doesn't thrill me like trying to overcome challenging environments in Hind. Truth is, the more modern a module, the more likely for it to have a bunch of guesstimations thrown here and there. Not saying older aircraft are immune to it, we know they're not. But there's still a difference in the likelihood of that occurring betithem and their younger successors. For some that is completely ok if it's the price to experience that airframe or at least a semblance of it, for others less so. And that's fine. The more diverse stuff DCS can come up with, the people it can attract. And also, the more diverse, the more retention of users and their interest in the platform. While I prefer my 60s-80s aircraft by far the most in DCS, sometimes I do take a break from my favorites and enjoy WW2 or modern stuff for example. With all that said however, I do strongly believe 60s-80s is really the best period to represent in DCS. Not nearly as done to death in sims as the other two extremes, a lot more likely to be made to the level of authenticity expected of DCS due to likelihood of getting access to documentation, and a lot more likely to have a complete and competitive blue vs red and/or historical matchup. That doesn't mean it should be the only period in DCS of course. But for a while, more modern stuff was all we were getting announced/released so some of us got a little restless because of it But now we have more oldies coming up. Thus, I don't know if there's as much ground to be worried about for us Cold War line up lovers. More modern stuff are coming too like Eurofighter, Strike Eagle. And often they come before the stuff we Cold War folks want, because at the end of the day they'll sell more copies quicker so devs sometimes prioritize them. 70s-80s fighters and strikers filling up from both sides in DCS is just the objective best outcome and the dream though, so it's nice to see it happening Yeah, not nearly the same thing/experience in any way shape or form though. So much so, I'm not even sure if there's a point in mentioning it.

When we look at the Spanish variants, AFAIK they have the same air to air weapons, and same unguided air to ground weapons. Differences are the refueling probe and an INS NAV system as I've said above. AFAIK it is only a NAV system and not really a NAV/ATTACK one, so I wouldn't really call it an all weather striker if that is the case. Looks like all versions will get laser guided bombs, but all will need them to be lased externally including the M.

CE: the first bird we're getting, mainly an interceptor with some unguided ground attack weapons too. Navigation through radio beacons. EE: As above, but in addition to that: aerial refueling probe, INS navigation system, option to use a better RWR BE: Mostly like CE afaik, but a two seater training bird. Guns are deleted. M: modernized in late-ish 90s and has a more modern HUD and MFDs.

Glad to be of help, and to dispel odd thoughts Oh and, worth mentioning remaining stuff from current modules too, like 2 more tomcat variants, an actual AI A-6, AI Draken, etc :))

Next HB Module: DCS F-4E Phantom II including two variants of F-4E After that: DCS Eurofighter Typhoon Then, DCS A-6 and/or Naval F-4 So, yeah, that's years worth of development ahead...

Shafrir 1, 2, and then continues as the Pyton family from 3 to 5. Shafrir 1 was apparently a reaaaly bad missile, mostly made to reduce foreign dependency, but the rest of the family are very scary missiles.

I see being able to run to be more relevant in BVR, unless it leads into/happens after a loss of visual, I see running off from WVR more often resulting in taking a missile up the nozzles personally. For the AIM-7M, AFAIK it's seeker requires a pulse doppler radar, which F-4E never got. I've seen manuals from up to 80s, and they still only mentioned E-2 and F. DMAS upgraded F-4E has an updated APQ-120, so I supposed that "maybe kinda sorta look down" feature may have been in that. But it's not the first variant we got, and that one shouldn't have any look down capability. As for the AIM-9L and/or M, I've heard that F-4Gs got them in USAF service, but I've seen a few photos with what seems to be plain Es with them too. So don't know. That could be testing/evaluation sort of thing too in those photos. Don't know that either. F-4F had them, but then, it's not exactly an E. Here in Turkey, I've never seen/heard about F-4Es with any other sidewinder besides J/P, even the 2020 Terminators afaik. It doesn't seem to me like the specific variants of F-4E we'll get has Lima or Mike's, but we'll see. As for Cold War aircraft nearing a release, I feel like only the Mirage F1 is close. Gina will probably be 1-1.5 years from now I think. MiG-17 may or may not happen, and doesn't seem around the corner in either case. F-4E is supposed to be this year still, but as much as I would love that to happen, I'm not really counting on it too much. MiG-23 herself doesn't seem likely even next year, or at least before late next year to me. Razbam has Strike Eagle to do, and polish, in addition to doing work on their existing modules. Their number of programmers seem to have grown, but don't know if they're still enough to work on/release two relatively big new modules. Here's hoping... A-7... maybe next year, who knows... I'd love it to happen soon, but things take time as much as needed. All the rest seem at least 2-3 years off to me sadly. Finally, the MiG-25 thing. It doesn't seem likely anyone will pick it up soon TBH. Also, any version of interceptor variants will be kind of limited in DCS, but I'd still like it. If you want to see it in Cold War multiplayer tho, PD would be the minimum for to be useful in any capacity. Personally, I'm more interested in SEAD and recon/bomber variants. Former, because obvious. Latter, because what's not to love in (janky and probably not particularly accurate) supersonic CCRP from stratosphere with 10 FAB-500s :p?

It's cool for me in the same way. Cold War coolness, potent strike aircraft for it's time, I also like Soviet/Russian aircraft, and DCS has forever been lacking a full fidelity Russian strike aircraft. Even as an FC3 aircraft, I really like Su-25, and 17/22 are like 25 but faster, and in some ways it offer more toys to play with like TV guided Kh-29T and SEAD stuffs. Su-25T can also do those of course, but I personally find the fitter more alluring.

I'd be surprised if MiG-17 doesn't have a go at at least top 10 gun kills in said period too.

Su-17M4 and Su-22M4 are so similar, it's almost certain we won't have two studios release two modules of these. Like others said, these aren't signed with ED as a licensed 3rd party module. It's pretty clearly what both OctopusG and Magnitude 3 intend to do, but they didn't take it to ED yet. SVKSniper's effort, if we follow the breadcrumbs, seems to be in cooperation with Mag3, but that's not confirmed either. SVKSniper said he'll continue modeling it, what may come. But in the end it might mean that without 3rd party programmer support his effort may end up as just a pretty model. Long in short, we are likely, eventually getting a Su-17/22 of M4 variant, from one party or other, but it isn't official yet, and will likely take quite a bit time to come. While this is the aircraft I'm most excited to have in DCS together with the F-4E, I have to say that it's too early worry about/hype for. So, I'd say don't worry about it, until the time we get some news and ED awarding license to one party or other, or maybe even to a cooperative effort between the two.

AIM-7F is very likely, I vaguely recall Heatblur saying yes to it, but I may be wrong with that, however, I do know that AIM-7F is in the manuals for both F-4E DSCG (first one we'll get) and F-4E DMAS birds. Regardless though, despite being able to carry twice the missiles, BVR or WVR alike, F-4E's radar will have it handicapped against MiG-23MLA in BVR fights imo. Look down capability isn't there for F-4E for starters, and it's radar dish is a lot smaller than that of the 23. Also, in F-4E you need to wait for 4 seconds for the Sparrow to be ready in order for it to track after a successful lock, whether it's E or F. Some say this is fixed in later updates, so may be not in at least one of the versions. But in the manuals I've read, I've always seen this requirement mentioned. And again, MiG has the IRST too. On the flipside however, F-4 has countermeasures. MiG-23MLA in Soviet service didn't, and depending on mission/server it may not get any. Iraqi Air Force apparently did modify theirs to fit countermeasures, and according to Razbam we will get it in the module as an optional capability. For F-4E, AIM-7F is the top of the line. Naval birds got the AIM-7M. When we get them, I think they will be better than even MiG-23MLA in BVR, as they have a pretty good radar too, in addition to more and arguably better missiles, as well as countermeasures by default. They can also get later Sidewinders, whether E can carry AIM-9L and/or M seems a bit unclear. There are some photos though. Regardless, naval F-4s could do better things with sidewinders like slaving them to a radar lock or using SEAM mode etc afaik. Slatted F-4Es we'll get should be more agile than F-4J in dogfights, but if we get F-4S, they also got slats, don't know how do they perform in relation to E. Overall though, maybe apart from better agility, F-4E is more suited to be a strike bird and naval F-4s are more suited to air to air. Yet, it is supposed to have INSANE acceleration and climb rate. Sooo looking forward to the day we'll have F-4E, MiG-23MLA, F-8J, (hopefully) MiG-17F, Mirage F1, Su-22M4 and/or Su-17M4, A-6E, A-7E all together in the sim in addition to existing AJS 37, MiG-21Bis, F-5E.

Think the dynamic between existing/upcoming 3rd gen fighters will be quite interesting. 23MLA will be by far the best in BVR if Mirage F1 doesn't get Super 530, but it'll still be better if it does get that missile, just with a less enormous gap. While F-4E can get AIM-7Fs which would be fairly equal with R-24s, MiG will still be a lot superior in BVR with a better radar, actual look down capability, IRST, and R-24T as an option. Now this part will be controversial but in a close in dogfight though other aircraft will have the upper hand as 23 will imo be hard to get the best out of in dogfighting. Maybe not Viggen because of its huge AoA limitations and huge deltas becoming a set of sails/airbrakes after the first 180 degrees of a turn :p.

Thankfully you're not

Apparently they've even put some Kh-29s on their Mirage F1s, and made that work. To think in hopefully foreseeable future we can have Su-22, MiG-23, Mirage F1 all together! :)) Getting closer to my dream of mid-late Cold War aviation heaven in DCS, one module at a time :))

That seems to be the opposite of the impression I got about them over years of reading migs but if that is indeed the case, I may become slightly interested in them. But can't quite say convinced just yet. It still has the bad rear visibility from last gen, but without additional fuel and avionics, most versions without a gun, where it gets the gun it is in an ugly, draggy, tacked on pod with not much ammo (not that F-13 has ammo, it has even less I'll admit), and it doesn't have the really high thrust engines from the last gen, especially the Bis. People like to throw shade at the Bis as heavy etc, but has the thrust to make up for it, especially down low with ChR mode where it pretty much goes almost 4th gen level of TWR (that'll, most likely write the engine off, but hey! :P), as well addition of a few aero refinements like strakes to provide better high AoA handling. F and/or F-13 is on the other hand, is the sleekest, has the best canopy, and the lightest by some margin, and is the first after all! To me, PF generation doesn't offer anything interesting aside from maybe historical relevance to some conflicts (most famous of which is far from being fleshed out enough to be representable in DCS anyway). As far as I'm concerned, it is the "worst of both worlds" and the ugly middle child of 21 lineage. Emphasis on ugly part too, because in addition to the metaphorical use of the word ugly there, I also tend to think that it has neither the clean gracefulness of F series, nor the muscle-car coolness of M series aesthetically

PF/PFM would be a pass for me. Never liked that gen of 21, and does't have the cool factor and famed handling of F-13 to redeem itself. R,MF, etc: Bis but slightly worse, so aside from (non existent) historical lineups I don't see their point. F-13: yaaay, TV-screens: yaaay, at least in case of the MiG :D, late F-7/J-7 with single piece windscreen and double delta wings: super yaaay

Very interesting logic, truely wonder how you've arrived at it. Funnily however, while it includes aircraft from everywhere, most of my favorite aircraft tends to be Russian, DCS or otherwise. If you're looking for a Russian cockpit mod however, I'd hazard to say that English forum may not quite be the venue for this venture. Just saying Had you read my earlier post, you would have seen that I've said that I can read Cyrillic, just don't understand what I read, for the most part. Moreover, in the same post, I've said that while I'm definitely NOT against it, I find inclusion of English cockpits neither mandatory to include, nor deal-breaking for non MFD aircraft when they aren't available. It most definitely does not stop being a simulator when the things are represented in a different language as long as they work exactly the same, as expected, but I have a feeling that keeping at this discussion would be about as fruitful as having two zealots debate intricacies and pros/cons of their respective religions, so I'll rest my case Edit: Also, wouldn't it be nice if we could go back to discussing the Su-17/22. Which, funnily, happens to be one of the aircraft I'm looking forward to the most in DCS. Weird huh? Something must be wrong somewhere Re-edit: also, this seems to have gotten lost in conversation, I very much mean that English cockpits, not that important, but isn't evil either, ONLY IN ADDITION TO THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE COCKPIT. So, maybe you all got me wrong and thought that that I have argued "no original language, yes English" even though it was the exact opposite of what I was trying to say in the original post.

Because it changes literally everything. Pages and pages of MFD content, on screen labels, sub pages. All mainly text based, and no tooltips either. Arguably they too can be memorized, but a lot harder and less intuitive there. So yeah, if there's an ancient PC or a glorified tablet is involved, I'd rather it be in a language I can understand

I mean, and ADI is an ADI, an HSI is an HSI, a speedo is a speedo... It isn't that hard to memorize rough placement of switch groups, and they have tooltips in EN anyway. I've used Russian aircraft in sims for years without that much of an issue. Actually, as a side effect, at some point, I've found that I could spontaneously read Cyrillic not that I understand what I read, but hey! At least I can read it now Don't get me wrong, it is nice to have it, and these days, due to spending less time on DCS sadly, I tend to use English cockpit when learning, where available, and switch to Russian after getting comfy enough in operating the type. But I still don't see it as an essential feature to have in the beginning of a module's life. When MFDs are involved, I do understand and agree with requirement for an English cockpit though. But it isn't like we are likely to get anything with MFDs but not in English. That said I don't see how EN cockpit would be so egregiously unrealistic and a job for modders either. It is nice to have eventually.

Afaik that one doesn't require/use Vjuga that's why I didn't mention it there. Was available on earlier versions but I'm not 100% sure M4 can still use it. Probably does, I hope it does TBH.

The one on the M4 is almost the same as on the Su-25, it's called Klyon. There may be slight sub-variant differences between that on the 17 and 25, but they are overall the same designator/rangefinder combination. This makes it very similar to the 25 in using unguided bombs and rockets too afaik, so should be pretty accurate with them. It does use a pod for another thing though, it needs a pod named Vjuga for doing SEAD with Kh-25MP and Kh-58 missiles.

It is a give and take between Su-17M4 and MiG-27K. Thus, I'd really love to get them both eventually. Su-17 can carry a lot more at a time, and afaik it has bigger sticks for doing SEAD like Kh-28 and Kh-58, as opposed to Kh-25MP for the MiG. However, the TV screen in its cockpit can only work with Kh-29T TV guided missile, as the aircraft itself doesn't really have an optical system. For using laser guided missiles, it is the same as in the Su-25, with the Klyon laser designator/rangefinder in the nose, aiming with the pipper on the gunsight. MiG-27 however, would have a HUD rather than an old fashioned gunsight as on the Su-17. Also, MiG-27K would have the Kaira system, which is kind of like an older Shkval: a TV camera slaved to a laser designator/rangefinder. Using it, it can utilize missiles, especially the laser guided ones better/easier. Also, while not entirely sure, I believe it can carry/self designate KAB-500L Soviet LGBs. So they are both more/less capable compared to each other in different ways.

New features we know of so far: - Inclusion of a missile approach warning system - Addition of another set of pylons exclusively for twin Igla racks - More in depth modeling of some systems, for example INS will get drift now, which will increase/decrease according to how long an alignment option was chosen when starting the helo up. NAV fixes will also be possible to correct this drift.

- Every aircraft other than Meh-16 :p. - Syria and Channel maps - Combined arms - Garmin, its 3s in cockpit versions for Mi-8 and L-39. Also, A-4E which is basically like a free module rather than a mod at this point. Don't do campaigns myself.