Operation "Blue Flag" - 24/7 PvP Campaign - ROUND 8

Guys, please STAHP!!!

I'm getting pretty bored of just reading complaints and moaning. Just play and try to have fun. If it's not fun.... Don't play :)

Blue had nearly captured the whole map earlier in the round, Red pushed back and now Blue are in the corner.

If that's the case then overall regardless of individually feelings and concerns over the round, layout or aircraft it's working as intended. It's a dynamic campaign with a moving front :)

Guys, please STAHP!!!

 

I'm getting pretty bored of just reading complaints and moaning. Just play and try to have fun. If it's not fun.... Don't play :)

 

Blue had nearly captured the whole map earlier in the round, Red pushed back and now Blue are in the corner.

 

If that's the case then overall regardless of individually feelings and concerns over the round, layout or aircraft it's working as intended. It's a dynamic campaign with a moving front :)

+1

Ciri, I really appreciate your effort and the time you put into this. But it came to a point where RED clearly has an advantage. It wasn't clear before Reaper6 came in and showed it to us. And no matter what we do, we lose one base after another just because the KA-50 is extremely hard to find. I consider this round over because you can't just set 4 aircraft on alert to look only for one freaking helo and still have almost no chance to find it. It's just broken and I don't understand why you keep ignoring this. The dynamic is fine to the point when only one helo makes a difference. Now RED has Tbilisi area and their fighters from Beslan are earlier on station before BLUE can send theirs. It's just broken beyond repair.

As an FYI: To capture Anapa BLUE F-15s would need to fly 200 (!!!) NM from the closest airfield while RED has 26 fighter aircraft from 95 to 130 NM of Tbilisi!!!

As it is right now BLUE needs one or 2 A-10Cs, depending on the layout, to take down all defences on an airfield plus a considerable amount of CAP, at least 8 aircraft staggered in 4 groups. Then 2+ helos to actually make it. There we have 12 aircraft for a successful takeover.

 

Let's apply the math to RED: 2 Helos.

 

That is what actually happens during blue flag. Sure, we could (!) go in with 3 or 4 Gazelles and 1 or 2 additional Hueys. But that increases the chance to get detected and shot down. And if you lose only one Gazelle the whole operation is doomed unsuccessful. Not to mention CAP is still needed because of the EOS.

If you don't know how to find a chopper in an F-15 i'm glad you haven't worked it out yet.

The problem is down to the huge difference in pilot ability and co-ordination on each side. Granted there are some good A-10 pilots on Blue but I've seen so many poor A-10 pilots, contrast with Red which has plenty of quality striker pilots. If you're getting done over by a Ka50 and Mi8 then your CAP is piss poor, you know when it says an airbase is under attack that means your airbase is under attack. When outnumbering red side and a Gazelle has got a bomber inbound the desire to defend that bomber is just non existent, probably too into airquake. A-10 pilots are given windows to make attacks they then perform 4 or 5 flyovers before even making a kill. But keep blaming the platforms because how can it possibly be anything else.

As it is right now BLUE needs one or 2 A-10Cs, depending on the layout, to take down all defences on an airfield plus a considerable amount of CAP, at least 8 aircraft staggered in 4 groups. Then 2+ helos to actually make it. There we have 12 aircraft for a successful takeover.

 

Let's apply the math to RED: 2 Helos.

 

That is what actually happens during blue flag. Sure, we could (!) go in with 3 or 4 Gazelles and 1 or 2 additional Hueys. But that increases the chance to get detected and shot down. And if you lose only one Gazelle the whole operation is doomed unsuccessful. Not to mention CAP is still needed because of the EOS.

Oh boy, what the hell are you on ? You spewing numbers and adding an airframe name next to it is not math -.-'

First of all one BIG misconception you have: EOS is not the magical "I can findz helos plox" sensor...far from it, as a matter of fact anyone using EOS as primary is doing it wrong, for alot of reasons.

Second, lets take your example... 2xA10 8xCAP 2xTransport ... so I assume you are talking about airfields yeah ? ... if you think our Red Helo combo takes out airfields on their own I don't think you factor in the all seeing AI.

In case you were talking about taking a FARP/COM Array ... really dude, you need all that shit for ONE FARP?

What I take from the last few pages is this: Blue starts to bitch about stuff just as much as Red now, we must have achieved asymetric balance :D

The main problem for people is apparently the lack of coordination, GCIs need to start being more of a general, taking command and working on big picture strategy (play it like a strategy game, not like a robot that is really good at giving vectors), pilots need to get into the mindset of joining the server and immediately finding out what that strategy is and who they need to talk to to help, instead of insisting to do their own thing. Better discipline overall from everyone is required, if that happens I think we'll be surprised how much we can work around the "unfair advantages" of the opposing force.

Blueflag is at a crossroads right now in my opinion, either you (1) keep it open for everyone, don't require much of a commitment/discipline from the pilots and just live with the airquake (and occasional succsesful coordination), this would pretty much leave the expirience as it is now.

Or you (2) could work some magic in form of whitelisting, make everyone agree to a certain ruleset and behavior so that we get a homogenous expirience everytime we join the server.

Ultimately this is for the BS team to decide, it is their campaign and they want to provide something for everybody, which of course has its drawbacks like I stated above.

I dunno about you guys, but I do not care one way or the other how the round goes, as long as I am having fun. Balance will be addressed, I'm confident. There's no need for hostility toward each other (EDIT: or blatant hyperbole soliciting such hostility, haha).

Don't get me wrong, I'm down for a Blue win and and kicking Red's dick in the dirt, but in the end, if it goes the other way - Sa da tay my main daime. You just have to sine your piddy on the runny kine.

Well, I tried a lot of things to find Reaper6. I have him on the scope but once I come within 15NM he drops. I tried switching MPRF, HPRF, Interleaved, Boresight, Vertical Scan, AIM-9 Seeker, anticipating flight path, last known position, Mk.1 eyeball - nothing. And when chopper hides in the trees (literally!) you can't even find it if you would stand 50 meters away on the ground. I bet you wouldn't find him five out of hundred times. But as I said before, there are allmighty beings in here that don't share but brag'n troll, bring it on guys.

If you don't know how to find a chopper in an F-15 i'm glad you haven't worked it out yet.

 

The problem is down to the huge difference in pilot ability and co-ordination on each side. Granted there are some good A-10 pilots on Blue but I've seen so many poor A-10 pilots, contrast with Red which has plenty of quality striker pilots. If you're getting done over by a Ka50 and Mi8 then your CAP is piss poor, you know when it says an airbase is under attack that means your airbase is under attack. When outnumbering red side and a Gazelle has got a bomber inbound the desire to defend that bomber is just non existent, probably too into airquake. A-10 pilots are given windows to make attacks they then perform 4 or 5 flyovers before even making a kill. But keep blaming the platforms because how can it possibly be anything else.

Adaptability

: able to change or be changed in order to fit or work better in some situation or for some purpose : able to adapt or be adapted

If you are not killing helicopters you deserve to lose.

I have flown plenty of CAP. I have shot down many helicopters. They win the war, not F-15s.

I would rather kill 2 hueys than 10 fighters. You know helicopters are our advantage, so hunt them down instead of cry.

Also if your A-10s don't have terrain mask, neither do helicopters.

It comes down to CAP. If you can't beat our Migs and Sukhois to clear your CAS in, then sorry, you're lose.

So much crying, "red has this, red has that". Has nothing to do with pilot skill right? I guess Red are just a bunch of crappy pilots that have amazing equipment? So disappointing to read these comments!

Reaper6

@Kobe

If you have a helo on your nose, in open terrain and he drops from your radar, 25km out. What would you do? Switch EOS and scan his last known position. Even at 25km the EOS should be able to find a hot chopper engine or rotor blades, even after he landed. I mean, it can look through clouds, so this is just right to assume.

Well, I tried a lot of things to find Reaper6. I have him on the scope but once I come within 15NM he drops. I tried switching MPRF, HPRF, Interleaved, Boresight, Vertical Scan, AIM-9 Seeker, anticipating flight path, last known position, Mk.1 eyeball - nothing. And when chopper hides in the trees (literally!) you can't even find it if you would stand 50 meters away on the ground. I bet you wouldn't find him five out of hundred times. But as I said before, there are allmighty beings in here that don't share but brag'n troll, bring it on guys.

If you saw a chopper inbound then you need to inform the powers that be get stingers placed and a focus on the area, heck you have NCTR so should be able to spot the major threat and notify the danger. Get the Ka50 or any chopper and learn how they operate then you'll understand what you need to do to make it tough for him rather than say oh well and press on forward looking for/attracting the fighters to play with. He has to get from A to B very slowly, he either takes 2 hours to get to the target or he is visible at 10 nautical at worst and 40+ at best, i'm sorry but you seem to be lacking in patience to care about this threat. And if he is attacking your base then understanding the crafts engagement range is going to help you no end.

EOS works on stationary choppers at about 5-7km.

If you don't know how to find a chopper in an F-15 i'm glad you haven't worked it out yet.

it's working as intended. It's a dynamic campaign with a moving front :)

I have to disagree with you Ciribob and Frosty Blue have almost nothing to counter the KA50.

I'm not sure what your thinking of with the F15 Frosty as KA50 pilots are often literally drive along the ground to not be detected.

As it is right now BLUE needs one or 2 A-10Cs, depending on the layout, to take down all defences on an airfield plus a considerable amount of CAP, at least 8 aircraft staggered in 4 groups. Then 2+ helos to actually make it. There we have 12 aircraft for a successful takeover.

 

Let's apply the math to RED: 2 Helos.

Also think this pretty much hits the nail on the head.

Not asking for anything to be changed this round but I would like next round back to the way things were.

Ciri, I really appreciate your effort and the time you put into this. But it came to a point where RED clearly has an advantage. It wasn't clear before Reaper6 came in and showed it to us. And no matter what we do, we lose one base after another just because the KA-50 is extremely hard to find. I consider this round over because you can't just set 4 aircraft on alert to look only for one freaking helo and still have almost no chance to find it. It's just broken and I don't understand why you keep ignoring this. The dynamic is fine to the point when only one helo makes a difference. Now RED has Tbilisi area and their fighters from Beslan are earlier on station before BLUE can send theirs. It's just broken beyond repair.

 

As an FYI: To capture Anapa BLUE F-15s would need to fly 200 (!!!) NM from the closest airfield while RED has 26 fighter aircraft from 95 to 130 NM of Tbilisi!!!

LOL...

You guys rock. This round started with Reds certain loss... We said just fight and let's see.

Then the posts kept going about the inbalance in numbers. Explained many times that balance is not only in pilot numbers... Then the Mirage in Blue side could take down everyone... And now Red side has a certain advantage cause of a chopper???

Did you ever consider the time a chopper needs to get to a target? But why bother? If things change again and blue take back the airbases maybe tomorrow we get posts about Blue certain advantage due to the Mirage and so on. Well at least we don't see any screenshots of player numbers inbalance anymore :D

It's really weird that posts come along with the map progress. Reds advace ---> Blue posts, Blue advance ----> Red posts.

You were certaintly not ready for a Nato vs Russian scenario even if asked for it many times :music_whistling:

Greg

@Reaper6

I'm sorry, despite being all that salty I must say that you exploit the Blacksharks capability to it's maximum that it's almost frightening. I'm not implying anything but it's at least understandable that people start wondering if it's just the skill or something else. But the fact is just that the KA-50 has a great advantage and is able to take down an entire airfield.

@Frostie

Don't you think I told all aircraft in the area what was going on? I told GCI. I'm not the commancer in chief so it is not my duty to act accordingly. I stayed 10 minutes in the area and kept looking for him. But it's not worth having four eagles look for one blackshark. And he can hover in the trees or even sit on the ground in the trees and there is nothing you can do about it unless you know his exact position. AI ground units don't tell me "Hey, there is a chopper/missile from the northeast over at X-City".

Btw, what's NCTR?

@Kobe

 

If you have a helo on your nose, in open terrain and he drops from your radar, 25km out. What would you do? Switch EOS and scan his last known position. Even at 25km the EOS should be able to find a hot chopper engine or rotor blades, even after he landed. I mean, it can look through clouds, so this is just right to assume.

yeah you are correct in ONE regard, you only ASSUME ...

I certainly will not switch to EOS in that situation, I sometimes can't find fighters within 25km on my EO depending on the circumstances.

If you don't believe me that is fine, but at least listen to Frostie, he is a veteran member of one of the best squads around (personal expirience).

Yes, you guys have the 21, we have the F5. This point is even for both teams. Blue lacks GCI just as much as Red does and we have people that fly the F5 and just fly in and die just like you have the 21.

Yes I agree but is not the same as having 5 F5 drivers and then you have 15 others in F15 / M2000 because you have 25+ players.

On the fact of the F4 vs 29... First I don't understand why Blue has a jet that was created in a totally separate era from the 29. Second, why in the world do the F4's fail to even take off half of the time? A lot of the time they don't even leave the tarmac, they just sit on the ramp short of runway.

Yes that happen to Mig29 too, sometimes they just get stuck on the taxi.

The major problem a lot of Blue pilots have with the A10C is that they don't really know how to fly it well. People fly into an AO, find 1 target with the TGP, and then engage it without a full knowledge of what else lies in the AO and what threats will be faced.

you are a beast... I saw you flying.. .train them :P

@Kobe

 

If you have a helo on your nose, in open terrain and he drops from your radar, 25km out. What would you do? Switch EOS and scan his last known position. Even at 25km the EOS should be able to find a hot chopper engine or rotor blades, even after he landed. I mean, it can look through clouds, so this is just right to assume.

"This is right to assume"

You do a lot of assuming.

Have you tried assuming responsibility for chopper hunting duties?:music_whistling

Well at least we don't see any screenshots of player numbers inbalance anymore :D

 

Greg

Well that is because I learned nobody care about but still "saying" that the numbers does not affect to me is a huge oversight for the experience.

That was your, what, 3rd post without any contribution to the discussion but directly attacking me. I might be wrong on some topics but I have a right to my opinion and I'm fine if someone proofs the opposite. I assume you are just another troll.

"This is right to assume"

 

You do a lot of assuming.

Have you tried assuming responsibility for chopper hunting duties?:music_whistling

Not troll, just tired of you crying, as is everyone else.

You just happen to be the one that does it the most.

Telling you that you are wrong when you say wrong things is not troll.

Everyone asked for Russia vs NATO, but then complains when one side has an advantage in certain areas???

Not just you. I feel bad for 373rd. They deliver what people ask, only to get more criticism.

@Reaper6

 

I'm sorry, despite being all that salty I must say that you exploit the Blacksharks capability to it's maximum that it's almost frightening. I'm not implying anything but it's at least understandable that people start wondering if it's just the skill or something else. But the fact is just that the KA-50 has a great advantage and is able to take down an entire airfield.

 

@Frostie

 

Don't you think I told all aircraft in the area what was going on? I told GCI. I'm not the commancer in chief so it is not my duty to act accordingly. I stayed 10 minutes in the area and kept looking for him. But it's not worth having four eagles look for one blackshark. And he can hover in the trees or even sit on the ground in the trees and there is nothing you can do about it unless you know his exact position. AI ground units don't tell me "Hey, there is a chopper/missile from the northeast over at X-City".

 

Btw, what's NCTR?

I've been flying this since BS1, long before dcs world even existed. I purchased FC3 and a10c for the sole purpose of knowing their capabilities against the KA50. I have mastered every single system in the KA50, and spent years and years flying it. If I dont want to be found, I wont be! and that's the bottom line. Regardless of how you feel about the KA50, it requires SKILL, like most of the aircraft in DCS. Not just dumb luck.

Reaper6

I have to disagree with you Ciribob and Frosty Blue have almost nothing to counter the KA50.

I'm not sure what your thinking of with the F15 Frosty as KA50 pilots are often literally drive along the ground to not be detected.

 

Don't get me wrong there is no denying it is easier to find choppers with EOS but you've got to know where they are first. Not as easy as EOS but the AIM-9 seeker is no slouch at finding them, once they drop off the radar providing you've kept a visual on last known location you can pretty much guarantee that's where they are, understanding the acquisition range is going to help scan an area. To add to your problems you're trying to find a Kamov legend.

As for Ka50 having intel capability I think maybe this is unfair.

If you are not killing helicopters you deserve to lose.

I have flown plenty of CAP. I have shot down many helicopters. They win the war, not F-15s.

 

I would rather kill 2 hueys than 10 fighters. You know helicopters are our advantage, so hunt them down instead of cry.

 

Also if your A-10s don't have terrain mask, neither do helicopters.

 

It comes down to CAP. If you can't beat our Migs and Sukhois to clear your CAS in, then sorry, you're lose.

An a10 can't land in a field at a moments notice, then take off again though.

Sent while I should be working instead.

LOL...

You guys rock. This round started with Reds certain loss... We said just fight and let's see.

Then the posts kept going about the inbalance in numbers. Explained many times that balance is not only in pilot numbers... Then the Mirage in Blue side could take down everyone... And now Red side has a certain advantage cause of a chopper???

 

Did you ever consider the time a chopper needs to get to a target? But why bother? If things change again and blue take back the airbases maybe tomorrow we get posts about Blue certain advantage due to the Mirage and so on. Well at least we don't see any screenshots of player numbers inbalance anymore :D

 

It's really weird that posts come along with the map progress. Reds advace ---> Blue posts, Blue advance ----> Red posts.

You were certaintly not ready for a Nato vs Russian scenario even if asked for it many times :music_whistling:

 

 

Greg

+1337 nailed it.