The damage code is not real.

hello I reported this situation before and is well know the M-2000 does not get damage easily. This aircraft cant keep in combat like nothing happened after a direct hit. Come on this is not battlefield game. M-2000 is a single engine and a direct hit tail on should be fatal.

here some pictures and see how this "bug" or whatever make this M-2000 achieve a kill and keep in high speed, afterburner 100% everything ok to end in a kills in favor Mirage. This is unaccepted.

Yesterday I did some AA gun Vs AI MiG 29 and AI MiG 21.

- the MiG 29 went down with one burst in engine area.

- the MiG 21 took over 60 hits and was still flying straight (that's a combined 3kg of explosive and 12kg of steel)

Yesterday I did some AA gun Vs AI MiG 29 and AI MiG 21.

- the MiG 29 went down with one burst in engine area.

- the MiG 21 took over 60 hits and was still flying straight (that's a combined 3kg of explosive and 12kg of steel)

Perfect. Then go to the Mig forum and report it. I am talking about this mirage is becoming unreal and over-protected about damages.

+1

The mirage definitely takes too much damage, I've put 2 AIM-120s and 1 AIM-9 into it the other day and it still flew...

+1

 

The mirage definitely takes too much damage, I've put 2 AIM-120s and 1 AIM-9 into it the other day and it still flew...

Any track ? Tacview ?

Because usually one R-60 is enough to ruin my flight...so how far did the missiles detonated from the M-2000 ?

Perfect. Then go to the Mig forum and report it. I am talking about this mirage is becoming unreal and over-protected about damages.

My point is damage model is a whole DCS thing, I had plenty of cases of planes taking hit and still flying. So no need to take it that way.

Is it not enough damage or over impressive visual effect ? Not that simple to assess with just theses pictures...

That one make it home after in flight collision, no joke:

These single engine Etendard IVP went home after MANPAD hit:

So single engine yes, but one hit may not be enough...

You can not compare a Manpad missile with a R-60M. Also with A-A missiles you got hit with direct impact on the main airframe damaging a lot of stuff also engine, or you got impact by distance detonated warhead and the missile come in straight fly level

When you get hit by A-A missiles tail on in an ambush, this gonna be a direct impact in your engine output. This is the case I posted in this bug report.

Conclusion. The M-2000 have a very simplified damage code. R-60M is not a Manpad and A-A missiles go in a straight level fly where the only can save you is a high G's maneuvers to decrease the damage, or countermeasures.

Ambush meaning...

You cannot use the ''not enough instances card'' here... Youtube is filled w/ crazy instances where 2+ missiles did not do the job. Just me, I had 5 times I just rtb'ed cause the mirage was still flying after 2+ missiles (and sometimes multiple gun runs) didn't kill him. Whenever I see a mirage online, i'm slightly afraid, not because its a capable airframe, but because I know it will pass BVR for sure as missiles won't do s***, and than he won't loose any abilities in the merge.

Also, you compare it to other planes, so let's do that :

Mig-29 : 25% as tanky as the mirage, survives 120s daily

Ground pounders : occasionally survive 120s, but minimal

27 : dies by any MRM missile excepted VERY few instances

F-15 : dies by a single bullet hit w/ hydro failure of doom

Yea, the M-2000 was sorta a running joke on blueflag as far as how many hits they could take.

Maybe the Mirage 2000 is currently a little bit too strong...not indestructible, but too strong, yes. I made some tests with an IL76, and some times, i clearly hit them with one wing while overtaking him : he take some damage, not me...

Midair contact damage model might need some tuning.

In my past experiences with the Mirage, I never managed to bring the aircraft back after a missile hit (A/A missiles nor SAM). Usualy, control systems are down & engine not responding.

I was lucky once or twice to survive gun damages but that's all.

Damage model & damage visual are two different things and they may not be perfectely sync right now.

Also, as jojo imply, direct hit and proximity blast damage have not the same effect on airframe integrity. You cannot throw a "not enoug" (©Ktulu2) like that, you have to provide tangible data, like a tacview ACMI or a DCS Track to build your pitch on.

RAZBAM recently claimed that they will be updating the damage model. Might as well delete this thread, completely unnecessary. Seems more to me as if this is some sort of whining thread... YES this module is still in development, YES it might currently have a bogus damage model, YES there are other aspects of it not working properly making it harder to fly in a combat environment

your point?

next...

@peppin, no need to shoot others with bitter responses, might at least show the tiniest bit of respect, that´s what´s been driving this community so successful for all these years (despite up´s and down´s in a few select instances)

Love how people seem to take sides and "your favorite aircraft act like tank", "no it's your favorite that does that" back and forth.

I take a much simpler approach : damage modeling on a great many things currently just sucks, and will hopefuly get fixed soon.

Even though pepin very often shows a bias and favoritism in his posts, in this particular case he has a point, Mirage is one of those things in DCS which has damage model issues even more than usual. Human MiG-21 in my experience dies just fine, AI I can't comment I havent flown often against AI MiG-21, but it very well may be tanky, I remember it being so 1-1.5 years ago.

Yes, AI aircraft use a SFM and SSM approach but, even with this in mind, damage issues are getting old. I ran a test last week, using every gun equipped aircraft in DCS against AI Hawk, it was impossible for me to down it with .50 cals for example, and did soak up a good number of hits from some really powerful weapons before going down. This is a more or less universal issue, it is just more acute on some modules, Mirage being one of them.

Again, these issues are known, nothing new. Regardless, fair that he reports, but the tone he presents is uncalled for, and that`s the main emphasis of my post.

As for AI damage model, it's ED`s business, so wrong sub forum for reporting that (which has already been discussed more times than I can remember)

You can see pictures on the first post. I mean if after a direct hit (direct mean the M-2000 was not aware one missile come and this missile hit all in the output) in this situation this engine is done, come on and after this see how the M-2000 still keep in fight. No way. This is not the first time happen. Something going on with M-2000 module sometimes don't get real damage.

You can see pictures on the first post. I mean if after a direct hit (direct mean the M-2000 was not aware one missile come and this missile hit all in the output) in this situation this engine is done, come on and after this see how the M-2000 still keep in fight. No way. This is not the first time happen. Something going on with M-2000 module sometimes don't get real damage.

I respect your opinion. Great that you report it, and as stated before, know that it is being taken care of. But just keep a more civilized tone, as the way you replied to Jojo kinda struck me as very aggressive I must admit... Nevertheless, let's hope they fix it soon :smilewink:

I wholeheartedly respect your opinion, and indeed it is a fact here, no doubt. Great that you report it, and as stated before, know that it is being taken care of. But just keep a more civilized tone, as the way you replied to Jojo kinda struck me as very aggressive I must admit... Nevertheless, let's hope they fix it soon :smilewink:

About your personal point, I don't agree. If I am reporting an issue. How come other person came and say this is not important because Mig and F-XX have the same behavior. If you are a M-2000 player I am glad about that. Go ahead, I love see more aircraft in the Sim. The Math is the same for all aircraft right...

About your personal point, I don't agree. If I am reporting an issue. How come other person came and say this is not important because Mig and F-XX have the same behavior. If you are a M-2000 player I am glad about that. Go ahead, I love see more aircraft in the Sim. The Math is the same for all aircraft right...

I do think you completely misunderstood what he wrote. He didn`t write it in a manner that essentially says "hey look, other aircraft are messed up as well, so deal with it..."

At least what I get from his message is a comparative situation that proves the GENERAL damage model to be more or less off, in other words not only Mirage 2000C has a inaccuracy there. I hope you can see where you misunderstood things

Again with the "feature xxxx in the beta version is wrong" whining. I always find it a little odd that people don't understand what buying a beta version of a product means. If you can't accept bugs here and there, wait until the final version is released.

And btw, check the sticky post in the bug reports forum...

I do think you completely misunderstood what he wrote. He didn`t write it in a manner that essentially says "hey look, other aircraft are messed up as well, so deal with it..."

 

At least what I get from his message is a comparative situation that proves the GENERAL damage model to be more or less off, in other words not only Mirage 2000C has a inaccuracy there. I hope you can see where you misunderstood things

Please add some prove about the main issue of this thread. I understand you want defend the M-2000. I see this ok, but defending your ideas with your opinion about the issue, not with personal attack. AND YES WE ARE IN A BETA STAGE, SO WE NEED BUG REPORT.

Back To the point. Do you think is ok the M-2000 don't get down or damage by e.g.Aim-120. Sometimes I see the M-2000 in combat after 120 hit.

Ok, my points were:

- damage model is a complex thing to do. I think many models suffer from that, and weapon's blast area effect is not enough efficient too. So it's complicated to tell if the fault is on damage model or weapons effect.

- a "hit" doesn't mean anything for the matter we are talking about. We need tracks to assess what distance the missile detonated from the target. Direct hit ≠ proximity fuse

- a "hit" in the tail, or even collision, is not always enough to down a single engine aircraft (see pictures page 1).

- visual effect may not truly replicate damage model. The damage I see in pictures of p1 are light.

- I think many player experienced extensive damages from a R-60 hit (nose cone ripped off, wing torn apart, engine down) despite it being one of the smallest AA missile, 30% lighter than AIM-9 & Magic 2.

- up to now after AIM-120 hit I'm in bad situation. And if not it detonated far behind.

So I'm just trying to figure out and gather objective data rather than personal feelings...

I have in memory a story from a South African Mirage F1 pilot, he took a hit from MiG 23, probably AA-8 missile. He was able to return home at high speed.

But the landing turned bad...

Each hit is specific case, but a "hit" doesn't always mean catastrophic failure.

Razbam has shown damage model, with engine, fuel tanks, electrical systems and so on...

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2832084&postcount=8

Crossposting here too, since I was talking about the incident jojo wrote above in another thread today, and found Mirage pilot's own testament of events, a nice read.

I will not enter into whatever flame war you have ongoing here.

I just want to inform you that we have reviewed the M-2000C damage table vs. the other mods.

In general, some areas are in line with the other mods and others were too high (fuselage and control surfaces).

We have lowered the HP for the too high areas to values consistent with the other mods.

We'll see what happens next. We don't like flying tanks either, if the aircraft was one it was unintentional.

I really appreciate how you react with the community feedback. Even if I don't yet own a module from yours Razbram I fully trust your team.

Mig-21 Headbutter

Thank you bye. With you out of this bug report we are in a real simulator thread posting a bug in a beta stage.

But as always: Post a track or it didn't happen. Screenshots can show anything or nothing, it's the viewers decision.