[NO BUG] 1.5.7: Texture mods and Integrity Check [FEATURE REQUEST Submitted]

What do you mean, Skatezilla, with "go to servers that dont IC" ? How many big servers are there, you think? You think ppl have a great choice other than coming to us, Blueflag or OpenConflict? The newest and youngest addition, which we welcome a lot, would be "through the inferno" which is 99% coop, btw. And I doubt aerobatics, as the remaining server that gets full, needs IC in the way we would.

 

In the 104th we are hosting the biggest and most populated server since 11 years now, and the only one that has been a constant to this Multiplayer. Of course we IC. We want to provide a fair game. We also dont want ppl to use mods that require everyone to have it or that give an edge, because the three main principles of our server - and what makes it so successfull - are: stability, reliability and accessibility. The latter being most important when trying to make this community grow, which is and always has been our main concern.

 

But terrain mods? Who is claiming that you can cheat with terrain mods? Where do you get that from? On what server? Please. It's not an issue on the 104th, and as far as I know it is not an issue on Blueflag, it is not an issue on Open Conflict. Those who claim it is, obviously havent flown with a terrain mod, also there has never occured any footage from someone showing "how much better he can spot targets because of a terrain mod".

 

It has never been an issue with air to ground anyway, those guys are actually happy terrain mods help them use their equipment at all and are more the coop section of MP than actually the competitive section.

It has never been an issue in air to air either, because none of the existing terrain mods makes spotting bandits easier.

 

Also: a vanilla game does not mean it is a game free of exploits or other ways ppl cheat. A vanilla game is not a must to provide a fair, open and successfull Multiplayer environment either.

 

Never ever, in 11 years of constant 24/7 hosting, and mind you again, being the only server that also was constantly full for 11 years, have we caught one single client who cheated with terrain mods. That is in more than 80.000 hours of hosting. So, unless you think you share the same amount of experience in creating a Multiplayer environment, please listen to me.

 

If you think that there is relief among our clients: there isn't. There is only complaints. As we speak I keep getting msgs why terrain mods and other mods don't work on our server anymore, as people now think it would be us, who dont want these mods. (it's not us.)

 

We do want ppl to use these mods on our server, 100%. And we do want to have the possibility as admins to decide what is ICed and what not, because we actually know what our clients want and need.

 

That goes for Multiplayer events, too. For more than 6 years now we had no single cheating incident in any Multiplayer event, and I can assure you over 70% of all Multiplayer events in the past 6 years have been organised by us, too. Excluding Coop that is, I am speaking of large scale competitive events. The last person cheating in a Multiplayer event was - you guessed it - Zerol from the Alpha Squad. No one else even attempted it in an event. And the only price money that has been involved in MP events, apart from Rik's event couple years ago, actually came out of our pockets or from sponsors we organized back together with SA-SIM. And I can tell you: cheating isn't an issue in events, at all. And if anyone should be concerned about it, it should be us, and not you. (edit: 6 years, not 8 years, the Zerol incident was 6 years ago.)

 

So please, we actually agree with the clients. IC should be configurable. And we need terrain mods and configurable IC back ASAP.

 

Many thanks to Eagle Dynamics, the rest of their work is - as always - beautiful and a joy to fly. Spread the love folks, all will be good, I am sure! :)

 

S!

THIS +100 Don't let it get buried

There is no reason for this to happen. The only acceptable reason would have been to drop the new terrain with it. They didn't. They ruined the sim for almost all users who can't stand the default textures.

I think the community here has made it clear that they don't care who is defending it. They are disgusted with this act. No warning and then we're hit with all this BS.

I had to go through hell to get the update to work just to find out my terrain mods won't. So now all that work is for nothing since I don't want to play with the broken terrain.

What? I think I have plenty of MP experience, hosting and playing on servers, so not really sure how you figure that.

It's not a "who's better comparison", please don't get me wrong, I didn't say you haven't any MP experience. I said it is not your field of expertise. It's not the main focus of your work in DCS - which again, is brilliant, buddy, and I can't thank you enough for it. But I think we can also agree that MP however is our field of expertise, as we lay our main focus on that (for more than 10 years now 24/7, which does make a huge difference).

And from our experience, what I am saying is: mods are good for DCS. They make the sim more inclusive, they bring it closer to the community, and they bring the customer base closer to DCS, they promote exchange, they prolong it's longevity by providing exchangeable new "aha" effects and they make it more interesting by providing a bigger variety and also they cater to certain needs of certain clients with certain preferences, which, again, brings us to inclusiveness. And as an admin with even little experience, you simply know which mod is and which mod isn't good for what you intended with your server / event / mission, etc.

Mind you also, some of us are flying for more than 10 years now, some since the days of Flanker 2.0. And mods are also a factor in that. So the solution is very simple: let server admins decide what is being ICed. It will be benefitial for our beloved MP environment, for DCS and for the end-user.

S!

I see it differently, so I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this, I want a Integrity check to insure me that the other guys are using a clean install, and not modded files to better their game or gain an advantage, which is basically a cheat in my eyes.

 

Maybe down the road ED will improve the IC and give more control, but in keeping DCS World clean, its doing what it is intended to do.

Agree to a point. But I think there should be more options to keeping the IC active but open for certain mods. A yellow shield in server browser maybe? :thumbup:

If Mods had a Specific ID / CLSID and CRC, it would be nice to add the ID's to an exclusion list when the IC Matures,

For Now IC Off is the way to fly with mods.

IC will mature, and things like Global Leaderboards or online persistent campaigns would benefit greatly from a matured IC (Disclaimer: not saying those things are in any way being developed right now).

But basically IC is doing it's job.

IC On, Clean Install No Mods

IC Off, Mods Permitted.

How do you check the integrity of those mods you allow, you allow a mod, then someone tweaks that mod into a cheat, and where does that leave you? An IC that doesnt really check the full Integrity of the server... so its still open to cheats.

Yes you are right, the server would be open for cheating (modified clients). So is there some other way we can ensure the server is not opening for cheating and still have server admins opening for certain mods? The old IC check did just that as we singled out files that was important to protect. :(

I see it differently, so I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this, I want a Integrity check to insure me that the other guys are using a clean install, and not modded files to better their game or gain an advantage, which is basically a cheat in my eyes.

 

Maybe down the road ED will improve the IC and give more control, but in keeping DCS World clean, its doing what it is intended to do.

That's all well and good Sith, but I think the point IronMike is trying to make is that its not fair that the devs are the ones that get to define what is fair and what is not. Id like to see the server admins and hosts be the ones to be able to define if terrain mods are allowed etc. To have an all or none solution is detrimental, in my eyes, to what DCS as a multiplayer experience has become.

Use Arma 3 for example. The server admins have all of the power and Bohemia has given it to them. The admins are the ones that are able to define what is allowed and what is not and it enables them to give a specific experience that they, as admins deem appropriate.

I see it differently, so I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this, I want a Integrity check to insure me that the other guys are using a clean install, and not modded files to better their game or gain an advantage, which is basically a cheat in my eyes.

 

Maybe down the road ED will improve the IC and give more control, but in keeping DCS World clean, its doing what it is intended to do.

That's fine, but I am saying that "gaining an advantage, which is basically a cheat" is a hoax at best and very, very few exceptions at worst. It is not an issue online, also because we constantly look after it (means we make it an issue for us, so clients dont have to). It is however a big excuse for many who fly. Unfortunately. Suddenly we speak about cheating with terrain lua after the new IC came, as we didn't speak about it before. Exceptions being some ppl driven by paranoia, but I would kindly exclude their input...

And it is also simply a fact, that while cheats do happen online, they do not happen through the mods we are talking about here (or the range of files they use). They happen when ppl find ways to alter different files. devrim's cockpit mods don't give an advantage, for example. nor do mentioned 3 terrain mods. you cannot just throw all in one pot. which is why IC needs to be modular. Then you can choose yourself - wether you want to fly on a server that provides the ability to use terrain or cockpit mods, or not. And you should be quite comfortable that when you fly on a server, like the 104th, a great amount of thought and testing went into the decision what mods should be allowed and what not and you should feel comfortable to fly in a well taken-care of environment.

I agree with you that IC should do what it does. But I would even go further: IC should be modular in that way, that you can actually white-list specific mods. So you don't open terrain lua in general, but only that particular mod with these particular files. that would be the optimum.

S!

It is false that removing the mods solves the problem. The integrity failure is repeated even though there are no mods installed, which shows a very bad resolution of the problem. The least you can ask is that they do things right.

It is false that removing the mods solves the problem. The integrity failure is repeated even though there are no mods installed, which shows a very bad resolution of the problem. The least you can ask is that they do things right.

clean and repair :thumbup:

like Hijack and Sith said, this actually isn't ED's fault, but the fault of the mods leaving "orphaned files" in the folder that further prevent IC.

use the DCS updater exe cleanup command in your cmd window. check skate zillas updater guide how to use it, and you should be fine. here is the link:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=114030

The IC I would say is implemented well, but too well for our needs. It rather does too much, as too little atm. Hence we are asking for modularity.

S!

Integrity Check is for checking the Integrity of the install of DCS World. Its to make sure the install is clean and un-altered. Maybe the IC will mature and you will see more options, but right now this is what you have, if it blocks something you like, you will need to run without it.

 

I dont think Terrain mods will be a big deal after 2.5, at least for a long time...

So opening up again for mods as it was in 1.5.6 is not an option for ED? Seriously? :cry:

And how long do you expect people to sit around and wait for 2.5 without their terrain mods to make the ugly game manageable...

There are no cheats as you explained being used on the popular servers.

Everyone has been using terrain mods for a long time. They are not cheats. They do not enhance anything. All game breaking enhancing mods were already failing IC.

Now ED killed off every terrain mod out there. Which is ridiculous.

not to mention bevor the IC cjheck i could run the game finde, and now with original Files its all stuttering...

thats what realy pisses me of, bought a game, works and now its allmost unplayable.....

Amen to that! :thumbup:

And how long do you expect people to sit around and wait for 2.5 without their terrain mods to make the ugly game manageable...

 

There are no cheats as you explained being used on the popular servers.

 

Everyone has been using terrain mods for a long time. They are not cheats. They do not enhance anything. All game breaking enhancing mods were already failing IC.

 

Now ED killed off every terrain mod out there. Which is ridiculous.

Well good, no cheats on popular servers, then just turn IC off and you are good to go.

Common mate, that's pretty cynical. He meant by the above mentioned mods, terrain, cockpit, skins, etc...

That approach is why all or nothing doesnt work for successful MP hosting, or at least: isn't benefitial. We cannot afford to turn off IC, and you know that very well. Of course popular servers are prone to cheating. But our taking care of it makes sure that is isnt an issue, not a hard-locked IC.

So, again, and again: modularity is the key, and I hope ED brings it back rather soone than later.

They understood people wanted to mod the old tired map, but that map is going away, why would they worry about terrain mods when they have full confidence in their work. I dont want to mod NTTR or Normandy, I doubt the updated BS map will be any different.

Then why did they lock out terrain mods before the new Caucasus is available?

maybe people just want to MOD to get a different landscape, like the awesome Vietnam textures. Will ED provide us with that? or a desert variant?

so its not unreasonable, what on the other hand is unreasonable telling people that they dont need TexMods because the 2.5 will look so nice .

lets do an experiement: allow server Admins to decide if they want to IC Texture Mods by giving them another option besides the old IC functions.

Then we will see how....popular this new feature is