DCS Mirage 2000C Discussion

[jojo]

Yep, one dumb Mirage pilot Vs 2 MiG 21 + 1 MiG 29S...what else ? :lol:

[Hook47]

The Mirage features the same longitudal mode, and its got just as effective a set of IR missiles as the F-15. What it does lack are AMRAAMs, but it does feature the equivalent to AIM-7 Sparrows.

 

As for climb rate, I really don't think you'll feel the difference considering that the Mirage will be going for a rear aspect shot regardless, which is a lot more dangerous than a climbing F-15.

 

Really the MiG is balls deep in this one.

 

But far less of them, as mentioned in my prior post. The MiG is no more balls deep than it is against the 15, and I think significantly less than against the 29, and it can come out of out alive in the right hands.

 

The real question is will the 29 murder the M2000? HMD, more missiles, R-77, and better energy management/speed and significantly higher TTW ratio? Ouchies.

 

Yep, one dumb Mirage pilot Vs 2 MiG 21 + 1 MiG 29S...what else ? :lol:

 

Your just a write off, bro. You are cherry picking my post and making irrational generalizations instead of carrying on an actual discourse.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Hook47

[Hummingbird]

On a side note I'm sure the Mirage is going to be a fun match up for the Su-27 as they are both very close both in terms of agility and weapons.

 

The Su-27 will have an advantage in BVR however thanks to its larger radar and longer ranged R-27R of course, but should a merge happen with two competent pilots, well then it should be one wild ride!

[GGTharos]

I believe the R-27R is not quite as long-ranged as the Super, but the difference might be trivial. The ER is another story.

[Hummingbird]

But far less of them, as mentioned in my prior post. The MiG is no more balls deep than it is against the 15, and I think significantly less than against the 29, and it came of out alive in the right hands.

 

The real question is how hard will the 29 murder the M2000. HMD, more missiles, R-77, and better energy management/speed and significantly higher TTW ratio? Ouchies.

 

The F-15 outmaneuvers the MiG-29 ingame and the Mirage will outmaneuver the F-15, so why do you think the MiG-29 will "murder" the Mirage?

 

tbh I'd be quite vary going up against a Mirage in a MiG-29 unless I have some R-77's aboard.

 

I believe the R-27R is not quite as long-ranged as the Super, but the difference might be trivial. The ER is another story.

 

Ah yes, I was thinking of the ER not the R.

[Corsair]

The real question is how hard will the 29 murder the M2000. HMD, more missiles, R-77, and better energy management/speed and significantly higher TTW ratio? Ouchies.

When it will have a proper flight model, we'll see. I see no point in doing comparisons versus rail flight model aircraft.

As for real life, the murder is not that intense. The 29 is at the advantage when it comes to thrust, but from what I read concerning 2000C vs polish 29s set ups, it wasn't always easy to have a winner standing out.

[Hummingbird]

When it will have a proper flight model, we'll see. I see no point in doing comparisons versus rail flight model aircraft.

As for real life, the murder is not that intense. The 29 is at the advantage when it comes to thrust, but from what I read concerning 2000C vs polish 29s set ups, it wasn't always easy to have a winner standing out.

 

The Su-27 outperforms the MiG-29 according to Russian data, so if the Mirage can give the Su-27 a hard time it should be able to match a PFM MiG-29, which I believe it will.

[Ultra]

Will losing the dragging chute in favor of the extra CM's be a big deal? Being a lighter plane I wouldn't think the landing roll would be too long, unless the brakes are weaker.

 

Although maybe landing speeds will be high for delta wing, similar to the Mig-21?

Edited December 1, 2015 by Ultra

[Corsair]

Landing speed is slow, 130 - 140 kt, aerodynamic braking and brake are doing a good job. Drag chute is only used in particular situations (emergency or very short field). Nothing compared to Mirage III or MiG-21, thanks to, again, vastly superior aerodynamics and flight control systems.

[Hook47]

The F-15 outmaneuvers the MiG-29 ingame and the Mirage will outmaneuver the F-15, so why do you think the MiG-29 will "murder" the Mirage?

 

tbh I'd be quite vary going up against a Mirage in a MiG-29 unless I have some R-77's aboard.

 

 

 

Ah yes, I was thinking of the ER not the R.

 

Thats a big negative my man, my experience is quite the opposite, the MiG 29 has an advantage over the Eagle in the merge handling wise, and the pretty huge benefit of the HMD (why did it take the USAF so long to get with it!) I would imagine the PFM will reinforce that. But that is neither here nor there. I think given all things equal, the 29 will be a bigger threat to the M2000 than the F-15

Edited December 1, 2015 by Hook47

[Hook47]

Will losing the dragging chute in favor of the extra CM's be a big deal? Being a lighter plane I wouldn't think the landing roll would be too long, unless the brakes are weaker.

 

Although maybe landing speeds will be high for delta wing, similar to the Mig-21?

 

It could make things tricky. I am betting on speed for the M2000 is pretty high, but not as high comparatively as the MiG 21. I would think that an empty and thirsty M2000 should be manageable if you use most of the runway. I can usually land the MiG 21 without the shoot in the right conditions.

[Hook47]

Just to stir the pot a bit. The M2000 is more maneuverable than the Flanker, only if the flanker feels like it... LOL

 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwI9ZOFAEzE&feature=youtu.be[/ame]

[TomCatMucDe]

First of all, drop the condescending tone, this is just a discussion and it's unnecessary.

 

Secondly, the R-60M (The missile I was referring to when discussion limited all aspect capability) was NOT rear aspect, The are limited all aspect, and were a damn good missile for their time. Very agile and a good seeker head. Even the R-60 was very capable.

 

Frontally the MiG 21 stands as much of a chance as the skills of the pilot allow. If you are attacking an Eagle or Mirage frontally, your taking your life into your own hands anyway. The point is to get into the merge or near merge where you have a better chance, and in the merge the 21 has a better chance against the Mirage than several other of the aircraft in DCS. That has been the entire point I have raised, maybe you missed that.

 

Third, have you ever flown the MiG 21 in adversarial PVP? Do you fly the MiG at all? Do you even own it? I do almost daily and get kills regularly. It's a matter of practice, judgement, and knowing your opponent. Yes- the Eagle and it's like have clear advantages, NO- that doesn't mean they will necessarily win an engagement.

 

8 R-60s is far from useless, and I have had more success with that loadout on PVP than many others. All this talk about it somehow killing the Fishbeds handling is balderdash. You seem to have limited knowledge of the 21 so let me drop a bomb on ya (no pun intended). One major advantage of the R-60 is it is VERY light. Did you know 8 R-60s weights 50 lbs more than 4 R-60s and 2 R-3RS? FIFTY... POUNDS... lol. That is nothing. You are talking out of your exhaust nozzle when you say it is a handicap.

 

 

you are trolling everybody here and discussion with you is useless but let me get a last shot at you.

 

before you question if i ever flown the 21 read my signature. that s what you do best, trolling and spamming this thread.

 

with 8 R60 you get killed before the merge with a Mirage who will lock before you see him and shoot you before your R60 will start to buzz. if you escape the first missile you d get into the merge with a disadvantage in a defensive position. with your 8 missiles you d be extremely unmanoeuvrable. better drop them and run for your life. let alone if the mirage comes higher than you. the mirage is capable of look down shoot down, which the mig can't do.

 

 

you really dont know either the mig nor mirage. you are just here trolling others.

 

bye

[sedenion]

I think (but maybe i'm wrong) Ramsay just finds hard to imagine that a pure delta wing aircraft can well fly, and it's even harder to imagine this strange thing, if this aircraft is "made in France"...

 

I think i can understand its scepticism, Dassault is the only one (before that delta+canard configuration was popularized by Rafale and Typhoon) that successfully made a stable and manoeuvrable pure-delta aircraft... this is a kind of curiosity in the history of aviation, and the mirage appear strangely outdated to many people that remain with, for example, the F-102 in mind with the idea: "Delta wing, an old bad areodynamic idea that was abandonned by most of aircraft manufacturer"...

[OnlyforDCS]

As my question was originally drowned out in the Mig21Bis vs M2000C back-and-forth, I'm re-posting and humbly asking the fellow forum members to stick to the topic at hand. Thank you:

 

As we are nearing (hopefully) the initial beta release of the plane I have a few questions:

 

Are any training missions going to be available when the plane is initially released or are we going to have to wait for them. For example a cold start training mission would be awesome. If that is not an option will there be at least a few simple single mission scenarios which we can use to get familiar with the plane and its systems? (Sort of like those available for the L39c?)

[escaner]

I think i can understand its scepticism, Dassault is the only one (before that delta+canard configuration was popularized by Rafale and Typhoon) that successfully made a stable and manoeuvrable pure-delta aircraft... this is a kind of curiosity in the history of aviation, and the mirage appear strangely outdated to many people that remain with, for example, the F-102 in mind with the idea: "Delta wing, an old bad areodynamic idea that was abandonned by most of aircraft manufacturer"...

 

Actually Dassault designed and built prototypes for two aircraft simultaneously: Mirage 2000 and his big brother, Super Mirage 4000, with delta wing + canard configuration, wich was eventually cancelled. The M2000 kept those little fixed canards tho, maybe being lighter and smaller it didn't need the bigger movable ones. But the configuration was known and tested by the company.

[Corrigan]

As far as I've seen the elevons of the 2000 are huge anyway, so control authority probably hasn't been a problem.

[shagrat]

So, you basically say that, if it is a 18 months old piloting a 2000 versus a full wing of 21s with experienced drivers, the 2000 will probably lose. That's not impossible, yes.

 

But the point is : with equally experienced pilots, the 21 has close to zero chance.

Based in real life experience or on assumptions?

A lot of things that actually happen all the time in conflicts, have a near zero chance of happening... As a bunch of farmers armed with 60 Year old AK-47 rifles, old Enflield rifles and RPGs withstanding heavy bombardment and surviving firefights against specialist Soldiers with modern infantry weapons.

 

Or a platoon of american army guys from TF Rakkasan being dropped in the middle of Shahi-Kot valley's flank with hundreds of enemy fighters on high ground around them should have taken much more casualties than they actually did...

 

So why does anyone think chances are a matter of theoretical capabilities, weapon parameters and the like?

 

If warfare in humanities history did prove one thing, it is that sheer good or bad luck is one of the most constant factors in winning or losing an engagement. Since the days of Egypt or Alexander the Great.

Edited December 1, 2015 by shagrat

[sedenion]

Actually Dassault designed and built prototypes for two aircraft simultaneously: Mirage 2000 and his big brother, Super Mirage 4000, with delta wing + canard configuration, wich was eventually cancelled. The M2000 kept those little fixed canards tho, maybe being lighter and smaller it didn't need the bigger movable ones. But the configuration was known and tested by the company.

 

Yes and (off topic) for curiosity, i observe that delta-wing configuration is now clearly an European speciality : Mirage, Viggen, Gripen, Rafale, Typhoon... (Concorde :D)

[Corsair]

It could make things tricky. I am betting on speed for the M2000 is pretty high, but not as high comparatively as the MiG 21. I would think that an empty and thirsty M2000 should be manageable if you use most of the runway. I can usually land the MiG 21 without the shoot in the right conditions.

 

Dude. What don't you get about : the 2000 is equipped with fly by wire controls ?

It's not an iron. Landing speed is actually lower than on F-16.

[myHelljumper]

 

:lol:

[Brisse]

Lol, can't wait to fly by with the Mirage 2000C there :)

[Hook47]

I think (but maybe i'm wrong) Ramsay just finds hard to imagine that a pure delta wing aircraft can well fly, and it's even harder to imagine this strange thing, if this aircraft is "made in France"...

 

I think i can understand its scepticism, Dassault is the only one (before that delta+canard configuration was popularized by Rafale and Typhoon) that successfully made a stable and manoeuvrable pure-delta aircraft... this is a kind of curiosity in the history of aviation, and the mirage appear strangely outdated to many people that remain with, for example, the F-102 in mind with the idea: "Delta wing, an old bad areodynamic idea that was abandonned by most of aircraft manufacturer"...

 

No, I see why you would think that but I think I understand the M2000 is a pretty good flying aircraft. I was just pointing out reasons not to count out the MiG 21, which is more than some people here seem to be able to handle. That is nothing new to us MiG 21 fans, we have been dealing with it since before it came out. Funny thing is I am actually going to be a huge M2000 fan too, but that still doesn't make my think it's a foregone conclusion I'll be blowing MiGs out of the sky before they could ever be a threat. Quite the opposite, I'll recognize the couple of advantages it has that could make it dangerous.

 

It's ok, us Fishbed drivers bank of underestimation.

 

Dude. What don't you get about : the 2000 is equipped with fly by wire controls ?

It's not an iron. Landing speed is actually lower than on F-16.

 

Dude. What don't you get about actually reading a post before you open your mouth? The question was if loosing the Drogue shoot would make stopping the M2000 hard with enough runway. Do you know what FBW doesn't effect? THE BRAKES....

 

Based in real life experience or on assumptions?

A lot of things that actually happen all the time in conflicts, have a near zero chance of happening... As a bunch of farmers armed with 60 Year old AK-47 rifles, old Enflield rifles and RPGs withstanding heavy bombardment and surviving firefights against specialist Soldiers with modern infantry weapons.

 

Or a platoon of american army guys from TF Rakkasan being dropped in the middle of Shahi-Kot valley's flank with hundreds of enemy fighters on high ground around them should have taken much more casualties than they actually did...

 

So why does anyone think chances are a matter of theoretical capabilities, weapon parameters and the like?

 

If warfare in humanities history did prove one thing, it is that sheer good or bad luck is one of the most constant factors in winning or losing an engagement. Since the days of Egypt or Alexander the Great.

 

Exactly what I have been trying to get across, but it ain't getting through my man.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Hook47

[Corsair]

Dude. What don't you get about actually reading a post before you open your mouth? The question was if loosing the Drogue shoot would make stopping the M2000 hard with enough runway. Do you know what FBW doesn't effect? THE BRAKES....

As I said, FBW and improved aerodynamics lower approach and landing speed, and cannot be compared to the much higher speed of MiG-21 or Mirage III. The chute is rarely used, in some particular cases I mentioned.

 

What you said :

I am betting on speed for the M2000 is pretty high

Is not true. Landing speeds on the 2000 are particularly low.

[Hook47]

As I said, FBW and improved aerodynamics lower approach and landing speed, and cannot be compared to the much higher speed of MiG-21 or Mirage III. The chute is rarely used, in some particular cases I mentioned.

 

What you said :

 

Is not true. Landing speeds on the 2000 are particularly low.

 

Actually, you DIDN'T say that. What you said was "WUT DUNT U GET ABOUT TEH M2000 HAZ FBW!!!111" as if I have been denying the M2000 has FBW for some reason. Wasn't very helpful

 

After browsing through some documentation, landing speed for an M2000 empty appears to be around 140Kts. With load it can be up to 200. That is actually ballpark of the MiG 21 which approaches at 180 kts. So it seems with load, loosing the chute could be a factor if you will need to make a shorter field landing depending on how effective the breaks are.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Hook47