KA50 Target Designator "a bad JOKE"

[Dejjvid]

If you have not encountered any issues with laser ranger resetting to 0.1/0.2 you have not played much Black Shark the last year or so. This is a game breaking bug in multiplayer, I don't fly SP, so I can't say if this bug exist in SP.

 

And yes, it's fair to say the Ka-50 have been abandoned. Look at the patch notes 12 months back, and then compare with the bugs that are introduced, and left to rot patch after patch.

 

If ED don't feel the need to update and patch the Ka-50, release the source code to a 3rd party dev so they can continue to work on the shark. Win-win.

[Rogue Trooper]

In case the reply is to me Dejjvid, Yes the laser range finder resetting by 0.1 is there in SP too and I see it often recently. You have to be very precise to guarantee a hit but I now account for this, taking multiple readings for range before release. Of course this decreases my efficiency.

 

I do not fly Combat much at all in MP.

[DAZnBLAST]

SiThSpAwN I retested the Vikhr's losing track and flying wayward. I was told by you lot it is the wind blowing the Vikhr off course, and I can confirm by editing the mission (removing the wind factor), it IS indeed the wind blowing the Vikhr off course.

 

My question is (and OGREMAN mentioned this) how can the wind affect a "rocket" propelled Vikhr so drastically? Surely the affect needs to be dumbed down a little?

[ajax]

... This is a game breaking bug in multiplayer...

 

I wouldn't say it was a game breaker, but it certainly is annoying and aggravating to no end.

[OGREMAN]

Really! WE SEE NO EVIDENCE OF THAT ASERTION

 

REALLY!

ED hasnt abandoned the Ka-50.

[NineLine]

REALLY!

 

 

Really. Priorities change as products mature. And I would imagine that much of the focus is on the IG and core of the sim right now. SO yes its painfully slow for those who love the Ka-50, but its no abandoned.

[Sceptre]

I don't think ED has a lot of programmers to spare (with all the new content in development) but I am sure they have not forgotten their first DCS module.

[NeilWillis]

For those developers of a nervous, or sensitive disposition, please allow me to translate this thread...

 

I am slightly miffed with the very minor shortcomings of your otherwise world class simulation. Would it be possible for you to expend even more herculean effort into making someone's miserable existence less awful? Poor guy!

[Isegrim]

For those developers of a nervous, or sensitive disposition, please allow me to translate this thread...

 

I am slightly miffed with the very minor shortcomings of your otherwise world class simulation. Would it be possible for you to expend even more herculean effort into making someone's miserable existence less awful? Poor guy!

 

Me and many many other people do not have those Proplems, so it cant be a Bug like thing. :smilewink:

[Home Fries]

I've implemented the method you described. The only difference is that I use a separate button to let go of the stick (this way you can hold the trimmer if you prefer). Additionally it includes releasing the rudder from the trimmer using the way PeterP found.

 

<...>

 

I gave it a shot (for the first time in my life I was able to spam click trimmer) ...

 

<...>

 

... I made the trimmer a toggle button.

You press (and release it) once, and the trimmer is locked in the pressed position. I maneuver, and when I'm in comfortable position I click the button (and release it) once more and the trimmer gets released and I recenter the stick. It's basically not different from holding it (in terms of simulator behaviour) but allows you to maneuver comfortably without the need to keep the button down. It also contains some additional stuff (like the unchain of the rudder).

Havner,

Your idea has inspired me to write a similar implementation for the cougar. The idea is to take the best of both the "standard" helicopter trimmer and the "Central Position Trimmer Mode" (hereafter CPTM) and combine them. Since I use the Cougar, I was able to incorporate the rudder as well. CPTM must be disabled in DCS for this to work.

 

Here's how it works:

I have trim mapped to H4U (similar in position to the KA-50, and since I already use S3 for a modifier I didn't want to use that). H4U short does the standard trimmer without any CPTM, allowing for small and quick adjustments. H4U long enables CPTM, but instead of locking the joystick until recenter it re-trims the stick in the opposite direction (in TARGET), which has the same effect, but still allows minor adjustments without having to recenter. This allows you to make a major trim adjustment, then refine it as necessary without recentering.

 

Finally, should you want to recenter, you can do so using the "old method" of moving the joystick back to center (though the trim will offset in the other direction until the joystick is centered), and you can even specify the size of the center region at which point opposite trim is released. The other option is to recenter while keeping the trim offset in realtime, which can be accomplished by holding H4D or S3. Holding either of these buttons while moving the stick to center will re-trim the stick at defined polling intervals, essentially neutralizing the stick until the button is released.

 

Here's the code (though simplified from my profile to keep the message simple):

 

[color=#1e90ff][b]int[/b][/color]    CenterPositTrimmer        =    50 ;
[color=#32cd32]//    Allows TARGET based Central Position Trimmer Mode (CPTM) for helicopters.  Positive value is polling time in ms for neutral retrimming; set 0 to disable.[/color]
[color=#32cd32]//    If enabled, be sure to disable CPTM in DCS Options.[/color]
[color=#1e90ff][b]int[/b][/color]        CenterPositTempo    =    500; 
[color=#32cd32]//    Default TEMPO value (TEMPO short will be standard trimmer for minor changes, long for CPTM)[/color]
[color=#1e90ff][b]int[/b][/color]        CenterPositRudder    =    0 ;
[color=#32cd32]//    If 1, TARGET-based CPTM also trims rudder.[/color]
[color=#1e90ff][b]int[/b][/color]        CenterPositZone        =   [color=DarkRed] [color=Black]2000[/color][/color]    ;
[color=#32cd32]//    "Dead Zone" for CPTM recentering.  Value between 0 and 32768 (lower is smaller dead zone).

[/color]

[color=#1e90ff][b]int[/b][/color] CPTM_Trim([color=#1e90ff][b]int[/b][/color] trim, [color=#1e90ff][b]int[/b][/color] prof[color=DarkRed]=[color=Black]0[/color][/color], [color=#1e90ff][b]int[/b][/color] poll=2)
[color=#32cd32]//poll = 2 because that is the REXEC flag for both polling trimmers.[/color]
{
[color=#1e90ff][b]if[/b][/color] (    (prof == 2) & (!CenterPositRudder)   )
[color=#32cd32]//if rudder trim disengaged this will still kill rudder trim to BS2 regardless of TEMPO or setting.
//Forum note: prof == 2 is the BS2 profile[/color].
   {
   ActKey(CHAIN(    KEYON+D(),
                   KEYON+PULSE+Rudder_Left,
                   KEYON+D(),
                   KEYON+PULSE+Rudder_Right    ));
   }
[color=#1e90ff][b]if[/b][/color] (CenterPositTrimmer) 
   {
   StopAutoRepeat(poll);    [color=#32cd32]//should stop any polling of previous trimmers[/color]
   
   [color=#1e90ff][b]if[/b][/color] (trim)            [color=#32cd32]//trim enabled (doesn't need to be CPTM TEMPO)[/color]
       {
       [color=#1e90ff][b]if[/b][/color] (CPTM_Engaged)    [color=#32cd32]//forces axis trim if TEMPO long[/color]
                                    [color=#32cd32]//nested if/then to exit routine if TEMPO short[/color]
           {
[color=#32cd32]            //divide by 32 because the axis has 65536 values and trim has 2048[/color]
           TrimDXAxis[color=#ffffff]([/color]DX_X_AXIS, SET(-HCougar[JOYX]/32));    
           TrimDXAxis(DX_Y_AXIS, SET(-HCougar[JOYY]/32));
           [color=#1e90ff][b]if[/b][/color]  (CenterPositRudder)  TrimDXAxis[color=#ffffff]([/color]DX_ZROT_AXIS, SET(-HCougar[color=#ffffff][[/color]RUDDER]/32));
           }
       }
   [color=#1e90ff][b]else[/b][/color]    [color=#32cd32]//trim reset[/color]
       {
       TrimDXAxis(DX_X_AXIS, SET(0));
       TrimDXAxis(DX_Y_AXIS, SET(0));
       [color=#1e90ff][b]if[/b][/color] (CenterPositRudder) TrimDXAxis(DX_ZROT_AXIS, SET(0));
       }


   CPTM_Engaged = 0;
   CPTM_Mapping(trim, MFD_Var);  [color=#32cd32]//Forum Note: MFD_Var indicates aircraft profile[/color]
   }
}



[color=#1e90ff][b]int[/b][/color] CPTM_Recenter_Active()
{
   TrimDXAxis(DX_X_AXIS, SET(-HCougar[JOYX]/32));    
   TrimDXAxis(DX_Y_AXIS, SET(-HCougar[JOYY]/32));
   [color=#1e90ff][b]if[/b][/color] (CenterPositRudder) TrimDXAxis(DX_ZROT_AXIS, SET(-HCougar[RUDDER]/32));
}

[color=#1e90ff][b]int[/b][/color]    CPTM_Center_Poll([color=#1e90ff][b]int[/b][/color] dz)    [color=#32cd32]//dz is deadzone value[/color]
{
[color=#1e90ff][b]if[/b][/color] (    (abs(HCougar[color=#ffffff][[/color]JOYX]) < dz) & (abs(HCougar[color=#ffffff][[/color]JOYY]) < dz) & 
   (    ((CenterPositRudder) & (abs(HCougar[color=#ffffff][[/color]RUDDER]) < dz))
       | (!CenterPositRudder)    )    ) [color=#32cd32]//all axes within dead zone[/color]
   CPTM_Trim(0);
}


[color=#1e90ff][b]int[/b][/color] CPTM_Mapping([color=#1e90ff][b]int[/b][/color] trim, [color=#1e90ff][b]int[/b][/color] prof = 0)
[color=#32cd32]//Forum Note: my actual profile remaps TG1/2, S1 and S2 to prevent my CommState routine (which remaps Hats 2-4 to F1-F12 for the comms menu) from engaging.  These are likely unnecessary for your own uses and are omitted.[/color]
{
[color=#1e90ff][b]if[/b][/color] (CenterPositTrimmer)
   {
   [color=#1e90ff][b]if[/b][/color] (trim)
       {
       MapKey    (&HCougar, H4D, CHAIN(EXEC([color=#a52a2a]"StopAutoRepeat(2);"[/color]), D(30), REXEC(2,CenterPositTrimmer,[color=#a52a2a]"CPTM_Recenter_Active();"[/color])));       

       MapKeyR    (&HCougar, H4D, EXEC([color=#a52a2a]"CPTM_Trim(0);"[/color]));    
       MapKey    (&HCougar, S3,     CHAIN(DX30[color=#ffffff],[/color]EXEC([color=#a52a2a]"StopAutoRepeat(2);"[/color]), D(30), REXEC(2,CenterPositTrimmer, [color=#a52a2a]"CPTM_Recenter_Active();"[/color])));   
       MapKeyR    (&HCougar, S3,     EXEC([color=#a52a2a]"CPTM_Trim(0);"[/color]));
       }
   [color=#1e90ff][b]else[/b][/color]    [color=#32cd32]//release[/color]
       {
       H4UD_CPTM(prof);  [color=#32cd32]//Forum Note: prof is the designated aircraft profile[/color]
       MapKey    (&HCougar, S3, CHAIN(DX30[color=#ffffff],[/color]TEMPO(DX3,     EXEC([color=#a52a2a]"S3S4Shifted();"[/color]), 300)));
[color=#32cd32]//DX3 short, long for modifier and eject check (forum note: another routine that includes eject check; just set this to your default S3 functionality instead)[/color]
       MapKeyR    (&HCougar, S3,                             EXEC([color=#a52a2a]"S3Release();"[/color]));
[color=#32cd32]//[/color][color=#32cd32]forum note: another routine that includes eject check[/color]
       }
   }
}
[color=#32cd32]//Forum Note: this routine reassigns H4U/H4D functionality after trimming is finished.  You can customize this liberally for your own uses, though keep the CPTM values and routines in place.[/color]
[color=#1e90ff][b]int[/b][/color] H4UD_CPTM([color=#1e90ff][b]int[/b][/color] prof = 0)
{
[color=#1e90ff][b]if[/b][/color] (prof == 2)
   {
   MapKeyIO(&HCougar,    H4U,    TEMPO(EXEC([color=#a52a2a]"SnapViewModRelease(KBPress);"[/color]), EXEC([color=#a52a2a]"SetSnapViewT(8);"[/color])),        
                               TEMPO(CHAIN(EXEC([color=#a52a2a]"CPTM_Engaged = 0;"[/color]),DX15),CHAIN(EXEC([color=#a52a2a]"CPTM_Engaged = 1;"[/color]),DX15),CenterPositTempo));        [color=#32cd32]//Snapview8 or DX15[/color]
   MapKeyRIO(&HCougar, H4U,    [color=#ffffff]0[/color],    CHAIN(EXEC([color=#a52a2a]"CPTM_Trim(1,2);"[/color]),REXEC(2, CenterPositTrimmer, [color=#a52a2a]"CPTM_Center_Poll(CenterPositZone);"[/color])));

   MapKey    (&HCougar,    H4D,    DX17);
       MapKeyRIO(&HCougar, H4D,    EXEC([color=#a52a2a]"CPTM_Trim(0);"[/color]),0);
[color=Lime][color=#32cd32]//Forum Note: S3+DX17 is used for reset trim in BS2[/color][/color]
   }                        
[color=#1e90ff][b]else[/b][/color]
   {
   MapKey    (&HCougar,    H4U,    TEMPO(CHAIN[color=#ffffff]([/color]EXEC([color=#a52a2a]"CPTM_Engaged = 0;"[/color]),DX15), CHAIN(EXEC([color=#a52a2a]"CPTM_Engaged = 1;"[/color]),DX15),CenterPositTempo));    [color=#32cd32]//Force Trim Set; shift reset[/color]
   MapKeyRIO(&HCougar, H4U,            EXEC([color=#a52a2a]"CPTM_Trim(0);"[/color]), 
                               CHAIN(    EXEC([color=#a52a2a]"CPTM_Trim(1);"[/color]),    REXEC(2, CenterPositTrimmer, [color=#a52a2a]"CPTM_Center_Poll(CenterPositZone);"[/color])));
   [color=#1e90ff][b]if[/b][/color] (prof == 6)
       {
       MapKeyIO(&HCougar,    H4D,    CHAIN(    PULSE+DX17,D(200),
                                           PULSE+DX17,D(200),
                                           PULSE+DX17,D(200),
                                           PULSE+DX17,D(200),
                                           PULSE+DX17), DX17);    [color=#32cd32]//flare; shift for 5x flares[/color]
       MapKeyR    (&HCougar,    H4D,    0);
       }
   [color=#1e90ff][b]else[/b][/color]
       {
       MapKey    (&HCougar,    H4D,    DX17);    
       MapKeyR    (&HCougar,    H4D,    0);    
       }
   }        
}

 

 

I know it's tough reading a profile with other integration (and without context of the other routines), but hopefully you can get the important stuff from here. I've added comments where I felt that my other routines might add confusion.

 

EDIT: One other thing: I noticed that in your polling you looped with a DeferCall in your routine and broke the loop with an if/then return 0. Is there any advantage to doing it this way instead of using REXEC/StopAutoRepeat?

 

 

Best,

Edited June 3, 2014 by Home Fries
fixed code

[Cyb0rg]

Ups..

 

I've just bought the shark. :cry:

[StukaJU87c]

I'm new to DCS and the KA-50 and have been having some issues with the Shkval and laser designation. Can someone confirm if these are known issues?

 

No launch authorization when locked on a target, and in range, and the hud sight is in position. Sometimes I have to flip the laser designater off and back on, sometimes switching to cannon and back to Vikhrs fixes it, and sometimes I have to reset the Shkval (and thereby losing my target lock save for DL) This happens to me pretty frequently.

 

And this is the first time this one as happened:

 

It just took me 10 Vikhrs to kill 3 T-72s. I'd launch them and they would just go straight into the ground. Not a near miss, it never even gets within 5km of the target (launching from 7.5-7.9 kms). It was easy to tell when it happened, as you couldn't see the smoke trail from the missile on Shkval. Kill 3 targets...RTB

[Flagrum]

Ups..

 

I've just bought the shark. :cry:

That is .... good to know ...?

[Flagrum]

I'm new to DCS and the KA-50 and have been having some issues with the Shkval and laser designation. Can someone confirm if these are known issues?

 

No launch authorization when locked on a target, and in range, and the hud sight is in position. Sometimes I have to flip the laser designater off and back on, sometimes switching to cannon and back to Vikhrs fixes it, and sometimes I have to reset the Shkval (and thereby losing my target lock save for DL) This happens to me pretty frequently.

 

And this is the first time this one as happened:

 

It just took me 10 Vikhrs to kill 3 T-72s. I'd launch them and they would just go straight into the ground. Not a near miss, it never even gets within 5km of the target (launching from 7.5-7.9 kms). It was easy to tell when it happened, as you couldn't see the smoke trail from the missile on Shkval. Kill 3 targets...RTB

Post tracks that show the issues you are having.

 

(and fwiw, for the last issue, did you check the wind in that case?)

[BigOHenry]

Here is an example. 1st Vikhr fail, 2nd OK, 3rd fail, 4rd OK, 5th fail, etc....

bug_flight.trk

[Flagrum]

Here is an example. 1st Vikhr fail, 2nd OK, 3rd fail, 4rd OK, 5th fail, etc....

Allright, this one I can't really explain...

 

There is some wind in that mission, coming from the right. The missiles are then, as it looks, probably blown out of the laser cone, but TO the right...!? Wtf?

 

edit:

I tried it once more, this time without turbulences (was set to 4) but otherwise the same wind settings. I had no problems - every missile hit their target.

 

So ... what exactly are turbulences in DCS? How do they function??

Edited June 20, 2014 by Flagrum

[BigOHenry]

I tried one thing. I always let the counter count to 0 (in the track i didnt), then fire the missile or lock another target. 10 Vikhrs 10 hits. BUT, in earlier version of DCS this didnt do it (if i did it too offen, laser was burned).But in the track was 1st Vikhr fail, so it was at 1st "wrong" (counter wasnt at 0) launch.

 

BTW: I noticed the "fail" Vikhrs have another sound on launch then the right ones.

 

I will do more missions this week. I will always wait on counter and will see if happend again.

Edited June 20, 2014 by BigOHenry

[ShuRugal]

Allright, this one I can't really explain...

 

There is some wind in that mission, coming from the right. The missiles are then, as it looks, probably blown out of the laser cone, but TO the right...!? Wtf?

 

Sometimes in high crosswinds, the piper for where to aim the vikhr will be over-compensated, and you end up launching the missile clear out of the guidance cone.. I have had several misfires as a result of this.

[Flagrum]

Sometimes in high crosswinds, the piper for where to aim the vikhr will be over-compensated, and you end up launching the missile clear out of the guidance cone.. I have had several misfires as a result of this.

So you are saying, the Shkval takes wind into account? :huh:

 

Hrm ... "wind correction" ... given the otherwise rather rudimentary avionics I somehow doubt that. And I can't really see how this goes together with the fact that seemingly the behaviour has something to do with turbulences - which should be somewhat random and thus not really predictable by any system?

[ShuRugal]

So you are saying, the Shkval takes wind into account? :huh:

 

Hrm ... "wind correction" ... given the otherwise rather rudimentary avionics I somehow doubt that. And I can't really see how this goes together with the fact that seemingly the behaviour has something to do with turbulences - which should be somewhat random and thus not really predictable by any system?

 

no, the shkval doesn't, but your HUD elements take sideslip into account when producing CCIP cues. strong and gusty crosswinds blow the sideslip vanes around.

[Flagrum]

no, the shkval doesn't, but your HUD elements take sideslip into account when producing CCIP cues. strong and gusty crosswinds blow the sideslip vanes around.

Shkval ... HUD ... whatever. I just meant some sort of electronics (what was the name of the targeting computer again? K-something? :o)

 

Anyhow ... sideslip is something different that what we have here. I know that the pipper is displaced left or right if you are sideslipping when delivering unguided weapons. But does this really also apply to the Vikhr as guided weapon? Theoretically the missile corrects it's flight on their own - that is the whole purpose of "guidance". We tell it where to go and the missile will take care of how to get there.

 

And besides that, the sideslip of the helo was minimal at least during my manual hover. At least not that much that I would expect even unguided rockets go 45° off boresight - as the Vikhrs did.

 

Check the track. There is some wind coming from about 90° from the right. Even when firing a missile from the right wing (pipper on the right) and I had to turn a bit to the left to get the fireing solution, the missile went about 45° TO the right, INTO the wind. That just doesn't make sense ...

[BigOHenry]

In the track i fired all Vikhrs from "same position" (in crosswind), but there was 50:50 in fails and the interesting thing is: it was 1st fail, 2nd OK, 3rd fail, 4th OK, 5th fail, etc.. So it wasnt random... And like said Flagrum, fail Vikhrs goes against the crosswind... I will test the same mission of campaing (its 2nd mission of Georgian Oil War part 1), so i will post some tracks tomorrow.

Edited June 21, 2014 by BigOHenry

[BigOHenry]

I didnt forget to post some tracks, but i dont get that issue again... When i will have it again, i will post some tracks or info.

[LFCChameleon_Silk]

i think the real question is HOW much wind, its measured in meters per second and i think ppl are using some really insane wind settings when they do add wind and turbulence.

 

forward momentum is always good for rockets or vikhrs it will help to give better range and delivery but i think firing from a hover is much better and easier to do (maybe not with rockets)

 

as for auto turn to target, try it with no wind you will be amazed at how well it turns to target, now add some wind, look it struggles using AP to get it right almost as though it is putting it right but the wind is throwing it off... amazing eh? I would say auto turn to target is very reliant on your ability to trim and the outside conditions.

[ShuRugal]

In the track i fired all Vikhrs from "same position" (in crosswind), but there was 50:50 in fails and the interesting thing is: it was 1st fail, 2nd OK, 3rd fail, 4th OK, 5th fail, etc.. So it wasnt random... And like said Flagrum, fail Vikhrs goes against the crosswind... I will test the same mission of campaing (its 2nd mission of Georgian Oil War part 1), so i will post some tracks tomorrow.

 

Sounds like it's working correctly. If you keep the same point of aim in a high crosswind, missiles launched from the downwind pylon will fail.

 

i think the real question is HOW much wind, its measured in meters per second and i think ppl are using some really insane wind settings when they do add wind and turbulence.

 

this. I regularly see constant wind values of 10-15 m/s, which is in the "high breeze/near gale" range on the Beaufort scale. In this range, it becomes extremely difficult to effectively employ the helicopter: AP will struggle holding a straight line and will require large trim changes to change heading. Vikhrs will regularly miss due to being blown away from the guidance cone on launch.

 

I have played a few missions with the wind in the 20-30 m/s range, which puts it between a Strong Gale (20-24 m/s) a storm (24-28 m/s) and a violent storm (30-32 m/s) In these winds, the helicopter is rendered almost completely ineffective. Towards the low end of this range, AP becomes entirely helpless, and vikhrs will almost never stabilize into the guidance cone. At the upper end of this range, simply keeping the helicopter in the air becomes a full-time task, and combat employment is impossible. In these missions, I just dump back to the mission editor and drop the wind value to something that real-world procedure would not call for the closing of airports.

 

forward momentum is always good for rockets or vikhrs it will help to give better range and delivery but i think firing from a hover is much better and easier to do (maybe not with rockets)

 

Hovering might be easier to aim vikhrs if you're not comfortable controlling the helicopter in forward flight, but it is a terrible idea. You can get away with it in SP (provided there are no T-90s around) but try this online and you will be easy prey for any enemy pilots.

 

as for auto turn to target, try it with no wind you will be amazed at how well it turns to target, now add some wind, look it struggles using AP to get it right almost as though it is putting it right but the wind is throwing it off... amazing eh? I would say auto turn to target is very reliant on your ability to trim and the outside conditions.

 

This. The AP only has 20% command authority, and if it has to use half of that to maintain a heading, it is going to have a lot less left to align itself properly with a target. If you are trimmed with sideslip, the turn to target function will end up point the helicopter's motion vector at the target, while the nose ends up somewhere else entirely.