July 2014 Update #1

[Flagrum]

(...)

3. they PROMISED to fulfill the pledge rewards to the best of their ability.

 

Last I checked, ED is fully capable in allowing us to choose which planes we want. If they decide not to do that, they are going against their own promise.

"best of their ability" - they would certainly also be able to sell their computers, their office furniture and whatnot and send every backer a 1000 USD cheque. I.e. being "able" to do something does not mean that it should be done under all circumstances. Being "able" means to remain stable and in business. And as this is the thread of silly analogies: you are certainly be able to hold your breath for 10 minutes under water. Ok, you might be dead then, but you are able! :o)

[Psyrixx]

Eagle Dynamics did not pick this project up from RRG from the sheer kindness of their hearts, in order to give backers something in return for the pledges.

ED has predicted that it will be profitable for them to make this product (or products), and they intend to sell far more than just the measly 2500 copies of each airplane (there are only 2500 backers of WW2).

 

So while I am grateful to ED for continuing the development (even though technically they had no obligation), I realize that they're not doing it for me or any of the 2500 backers - they are in fact doing it for the tens of thousands of purchases of full priced modules, once the planes are developed and sold.

 

However, ED is fulfilling backer rewards to the best of their ability as a corporation based on the original amount pledged to the KS and what they perceive to be a fair reward at each pledge tier, out of the kindness of their hearts.

 

They could have just as easily said "RRG Failed, Project Cancelled. Oh but we're starting a new project called DCS: 1942, preorders happen here!"

 

:thumbup:

[ishtmail]

"best of their ability" - they would certainly also be able to sell their computers, their office furniture and whatnot and send every backer a 1000 USD cheque. I.e. being "able" to do something does not mean that it should be done under all circumstances. Being "able" means to remain stable and in business. And as this is the thread of silly analogies: you are certainly able to hold your breath for 10 minutes under water. Ok, you might be dead than, but you are able! :o)

 

Please explain to me how giving people the possibility to change from a P51D module to a different one would endanger the stability of ED?

 

The 'cost' of such a change, if every backer did it, would be 25.000 dollars. That's nothing compared to how much money development of even ONE airplane costs, and it's absolutely nothing compared to how much ED will get from the sales once they start selling the modules at full price.

 

Not to mention they would make the backers happy and would keep many loyal customers for years to come.

[ishtmail]

However, ED is fulfilling backer rewards to the best of their ability as a corporation based on the original amount pledged to the KS and what they perceive to be a fair reward at each pledge tier, out of the kindness of their hearts.

 

They could have just as easily said "RRG Failed, Project Cancelled. Oh but we're starting a new project called DCS: 1942, preorders happen here!"

 

:thumbup:

 

No, they could not, because they would have to start from scratch.

 

Normandy that RRG did? Gone.

BF109? Gone.

All the modeling for the Spit, P47, ME262? Gone.

 

If ED went down this path, they would have no right to use ANY of the assets developed by RRG, because those assets were payed for by the backers.

[NineLine]

I supported and advertised the project during KS on different forums too. Should I fulfil RRG's broken promises? Why ED should do it?

 

Good point, I convinced a friend to join the KS, perhaps I am responsible for his rewards? :helpsmilie:

[Flagrum]

No, they could not, because they would have to start from scratch.

 

Normandy that RRG did? Gone.

BF109? Gone.

All the modeling for the Spit, P47, ME262? Gone.

 

If ED went down this path, they would have no right to use ANY of the assets developed by RRG, because those assets were payed for by the backers.

What ED can (re-)use and what not is up to the agreements ED and RRG made or not have made (or "would have" in this hypothetical case).

That has nothing to do with any agreements between us and RRG.

[billeinstein]

Good point, I convinced a friend to join the KS, perhaps I am responsible for his rewards? :helpsmilie:

 

If you got their money, YES.

[NineLine]

If you got their money, YES.

 

Nope, but I helped them part with it....

[rubblebeam]

There is a lot of talk about a failed kickstarter. The kickstarter was successful. There is a lot of talk about RRG going bust we don't know that for sure. Luthier is gone we don't know why. There are many unanswered questions. Eople talk about the successful conclusion of this debacle thanks to ed but the animosity that not being able to chose the plane you want from the available flyables is going to put some folk off the project. Yes we all want the project to succeed but what good is the project when a lot of the backers are turned off and multiplayer servers are empty?

[ishtmail]

Nope, but I helped them part with it....

 

Yes, but the money isn't with you. It's with ED at this moment, tied into the assets they're developing.

[Flagrum]

Please explain to me how giving people the possibility to change from a P51D module to a different one would endanger the stability of ED?

 

The 'cost' of such a change, if every backer did it, would be 25.000 dollars. That's nothing compared to how much money development of even ONE airplane costs, and it's absolutely nothing compared to how much ED will get from the sales once they start selling the modules at full price.

 

Not to mention they would make the backers happy and would keep many loyal customers for years to come.

How again did you come to that figure? Anyhow, although my calculation would result in a higher sum, we both don't know how large or small the margins are. 25K off = the aircraft is not even bringing in the costs - why would you block dev ressources and manpower for something that won't even cover the costs? And firing one dev to compensate for the loss is certainly not helping in either way.

[ishtmail]

How again did you come to that figure? Anyhow, although my calculation would result in a higher sum, we both don't know how large or small the margins are. 25K off = the aircraft is not even bringing in the costs - why would you block dev ressources and manpower for something that won't even cover the costs? And firing one dev to compensate for the loss is certainly not helping in either way.

 

Simple math.

 

P51D retail currently costs $30.

Dora currently costs $40 (safe to assume other modules will have a prepurchase price like this).

 

That's a $10 difference.

 

If ED allows us to switch from P51D to other modules, that's $10 per switch. There are 2500 backers.

 

10 x 2500 = 25.000 dollars.

 

That's the potential cost of allowing us to switch to other modules. And that's peanuts compared to the full development costs of any module (200.000 dollars and more), or how much ED can earn when they sell the module outright in their store (to tens of thousands of buyers).

[billeinstein]

Nope, but I helped them part with it....

 

I'm not angry for buying another copies of P-51D & 190D, but the $12 shipping costs, which will ship nothing now. Or I should back $8 more to get the 262.

 

Wish Wags reconsider this.

[NineLine]

There is a lot of talk about a failed kickstarter. The kickstarter was successful. There is a lot of talk about RRG going bust we don't know that for sure. Luthier is gone we don't know why. There are many unanswered questions. Eople talk about the successful conclusion of this debacle thanks to ed but the animosity that not being able to chose the plane you want from the available flyables is going to put some folk off the project. Yes we all want the project to succeed but what good is the project when a lot of the backers are turned off and multiplayer servers are empty?

 

When the project is finished... I doubt servers will be empty... but I understand you are trying to make a dramatic point...

[NineLine]

I will get a definite answer on shipping costs... but I assume that if the records show you paid x amount with shipping, that will be the total you backed for, and will put you in whatever category the OP shows.

[Cornbread]

Something that has been brought up a lot is that the kickstarter "promised" you rewards or that you've already "bought" all the aircraft with your $<insert amount> pledge.

 

People are missing the fundamental point of Kickstarter. Nobody has bought anything by pledging money. No one "owes" or "promised" you anything unless the project is completed successfully as laid out in the original Kickstarter. RRG, the founder of the Kickstarter, has closed up shop. ED has picked up the project themselves and is going to finish it.

 

The moment RRG lost control of DCS: WWII was the moment the Kickstarter failed. ED has no obligation to give anyone anything as, even as a "partner" in whatever extent that may have been, they were not the ones running the Kickstarter.

 

Kickstarter is an investment platform. Not a "buy things for cheaper" platform. The Creator of the Kickstarter was Luthier and RRG Studios. ED was a Partner. Only the Creator is responsible for the fate of the Kickstarter. The Creator, in this instance, failed spectacularly. The Partner, happily enough, decided to assume control of the failed project and continue it. This does not mean that now ED "owes" anyone anything. They could have just as easily said "sorry, DCS WWII has been cancelled due to project mismanagement".

 

You invested. The project failed. Luckily the partner decided to pick up the project and see it through to completion. They even restructured the original Kickstarter rewards in an attempt to provide some sort of return based on the level of financial commitment that each backer originally pledged.

 

That's as simple as this situation is. Apart from a few particulars that have already been discussed to death in this thread, it is a favorable outcome from a horrible situation.

 

Be patient, let ED sort through the thread and if they change their minds for the better then that's fantastic. But everyone should be approaching this as a failed investment first and foremost, not "someone owes me something and is not delivering".

 

I tried to make this point yesterday, about a zillion pages ago now, and it didn't make an impression on anyone. So I'm just gonna quote you because I'm too lazy to reword it and it would be gauche to quote myself. LOLSIES

[Abburo]

I am just happy that ED did not give backers an aquarium and a number of fishes according with their pledge amount.

 

Also I do hope ME262 do not cost 2000$+ representing a highly and ubber plane of that era. Also I am happy that future planes will not cost 200-500$.

 

What are we complaining here? I lost my 40$ ? No! Did I spend far more money on useless things ? Yes!

 

C'mon people, give ED a brake. Let them create their own marketing. Why only americans and robertsons know how to market something? Why when we are talking about a small company like ED we are so ungratefull!

 

@Eagle Dynamics: just hurry up with EDGE/dedicated server/Nevada and I am quite sure these riots will be reduced in intensity. You are almost there... just go for it!

[Gooseneck]

I will get a definite answer on shipping costs... but I assume that if the records show you paid x amount with shipping, that will be the total you backed for, and will put you in whatever category the OP shows.

 

Thanks old chum. :thumbup:

[ishtmail]

I am just happy that ED did not give backers an aquarium and a number of fishes according with their pledge amount.

 

Also I do hope ME262 do not cost 2000$+ representing a highly and ubber plane of that era. Also I am happy that future planes will not cost 200-500$.

 

What are we complaining here? I lost my 40$ ? No! Did I spend far more money on useless things ? Yes!

 

C'mon people, give ED a brake. Let them create their own marketing. Why only americans and robertsons know how to market something? Why when we are talking about a small company like ED we are so ungratefull!

 

@Eagle Dynamics: just hurry up with EDGE/dedicated server/Nevada and I am quite sure these riots will be reduced in intensity. You are almost there... just go for it!

 

Not an entirely fair comparison, mate, because in DCS, you can't earn new airplanes just by playing the game ;)

[Merlin-27]

Good point, I convinced a friend to join the KS, perhaps I am responsible for his rewards? :helpsmilie:

 

It depends, are you directly benefiting financially from the product being offered now by ED which was partially funded by the crowdfunding effort? No matter how insignificant, the backers contributed to the project and were encouraged by the fact that EDs name was plastered over the entire endeavor. I personally wouldn't have even considered backing if ED was not involved. So, it's a bit disappointing to see people describe this situation as simple and straightforward.

 

My biggest shock was hearing that the Normandy map was not free at this point. This changes the whole dynamic in my eyes. I am already slated to receive every aircraft and the map, so this is not a gripe about rewards. How will DCS attract newcomers to the WWII theater and aircraft with no way to try it out? (Please don't point out that they can fly a warbird in the Caucasus) It's just not the same, and has stopped plenty of people already from joining the ranks. It's definitely going to be harder to bring people in, and I'm afraid the skies will be far quieter now.

[Flagrum]

Simple math.

 

P51D retail currently costs $30.

Dora currently costs $40 (safe to assume other modules will have a prepurchase price like this).

 

That's a $10 difference.

 

If ED allows us to switch from P51D to other modules, that's $10 per switch. There are 2500 backers.

 

10 x 2500 = 25.000 dollars.

 

That's the potential cost of allowing us to switch to other modules. And that's peanuts compared to the full development costs of any module (200.000 dollars and more), or how much ED can earn when they sell the module outright in their store (to tens of thousands of buyers).

It costs ED 0 USD to develop the P-51D, but 200000 USD to develop any other aircraft. I would assume, that the break even point for the P-51D is already reached, so every additional copy sold is a net. plus of 30 USD. Or from the KS perspective: it is a net. loss of 0 USD. (maybe better: "it costs ED 0 USD")

 

On the other hand, the Dora (or any other WWII a/c) costs ED 200000 which seemingly breaks down to 40-50 USD per copy to break even eventually. Every copy not sold, but given away as backer reward is therefore a net. loss of 20 USD (40 USD retail - 20 USD backer pledge = "costs for ED: 20 USD").

 

For 2500 backers this would sum up to 50000 USD - or 1/4 of the development costs of one aircraft. Hardly "peanuts", imo.

 

Edit:

for the record: I am not against the idea of allowing to choose the aircraft(s). I, too, don't want or need a second P-51D key. But I want to point out that "best to our abilities" could be a real and relevant restriction here.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Flagrum

[ishtmail]

It costs ED 0 USD to develop the P-51D, but 200000 USD to develop any other aircraft. I would assume, that the break even point for the P-51D is already reached, so every additional copy sold is a net. plus of 30 USD. Or from the KS perspective: it is a net. loss of 0 USD. (maybe better: "it costs ED 0 USD")

 

On the other hand, the Dora (or any other WWII a/c) costs ED 200000 which seemingly breaks down to 40-50 USD per copy to break even eventually. Every copy not sold, but given away as backer reward is therefore a net. loss of 20 USD (40 USD retail - 20 USD backer pledge = "costs for ED: 20 USD").

 

For 2500 backers this would sum up to 50000 USD - or 1/4 of the development costs of one aircraft. Hardly "peanuts", imo.

 

Absolute peanuts. ED isn't going into this to barely break even, the market for these modules is tens of thousands of copies.

 

Also, you're assuming that if 2500 backers didn't receive the Dora at a $20 discount, that they would all buy it at full price. Don't make such assumptions please. RIAA makes such assumptions often, and their assumptions have been disproven.

Edited July 8, 2014 by ishtmail

[upupandaway]

Not an entirely fair comparison, mate, because in DCS, you can't earn new airplanes just by playing the game ;)

 

We definitely need DCS trading cards on Steam...

[f-18hornet]

That is a suggestion they could consider.. but you all know I have no say in that :)

 

But thanks for making a suggestion without all the dramatic flare :)

 

It would be great to know if someone responsible can consider that.;)

[TaliG]

I supported and advertised the project during KS on different forums too. Should I fulfil RRG's broken promises? Why ED should do it?

 

Because ED continues the dcs ww2 development on the work that was done using KS money until now.

 

In my opinion they should at least give us the opportunity to choose what airframe we want.

 

There is already a huge disappointment from many of us.

I am very frustrated, like many others.

 

I feel I am treated not like a loyal customer, but as a loyal cow.

Realy.