Su-27 Weapon Systems and Missiles

[Thumper1606688436]

"Grumpy Git" Tharos ;)

[*Rage*]

Look at the missile mod; it's just one example of things that are being worked on.

 

As for why ED makes the decisions they do, I don't know. I do know that some moves towards more realism are detrimental, because a realistic flaw is missing for example.

 

If you can find the details for obtaining a full system lock-on for the flanker`s radar, you`ll find it can take as much as 10 sec to lock on (where you can find this, I can`t recall any longer, but it wasn`t `some page`or `some guy`on the internet :P ). By comparison there`s no such problems for its contemporary adversary. Imagine if ECM came into play. Similarly - flankers would be getting one set of jammers per flight of four, each eagle gets its own. This seriously affects tactics.

 

If this seems ranty, I really do not have time to get into it at the moment, busy doing things that pay me :)

 

My point is just this: DCS only reflects a little bit of A2A realism. As far as russian equipment goes, you have it good.

 

The missile mod has some science behind it and so ED have joined in on that debate. As far as I can tell they've rejected it but im willing to be proved wrong on that. Everything else you've mentioned so far in this thread is either anecdotal or hearsay. In other words. Inadmissable. Its fine if you don't have the time to present evidence to support your case. But that also means you cant go round making the sweeping statements you do.

[Esac_mirmidon]

This vertical mode limit is when the radar is the primary or the only channel, not the IRST one.

 

 

Remember that the Su-27 Radar and IRST can work alone or in common, beeing one the primary channel and the other the secondary channel.

[GGTharos]

Like I said, you can go find out for yourself. You`ll also then find out why a lot of it isn`t presentable. It doesn`t have anything to do with reliability.

 

Look at what Esac posted, too.

 

As for science and inadmissible arguments, I suggest you back up R-27`s not eating chaff in front quarter, see how well you can do without employing any speculation at all ;)

 

The missile mod has some science behind it and so ED have joined in on that debate. As far as I can tell they've rejected it but im willing to be proved wrong on that. Everything else you've mentioned so far in this thread is either anecdotal or hearsay. In other words. Inadmissable. Its fine if you don't have the time to present evidence to support your case. But that also means you cant go round making the sweeping statements you do.

Edited November 24, 2014 by GGTharos

[TAW_Blaze]

Any asymetric missiles load allow only maximum +2G maneuvers and no -G at all.

 

WOW! Is that real? Would that mean they have to fire missiles in symmetrical pairs? Or am I interpreting this wrong?

[Frostie]

If you can find the details for obtaining a full system lock-on for the flanker`s radar, you`ll find it can take as much as 10 sec to lock on (where you can find this, I can`t recall any longer, but it wasn`t `some page`or `some guy`on the internet :P ). By comparison there`s no such problems for its contemporary adversary. Imagine if ECM came into play. Similarly - flankers would be getting one set of jammers per flight of four, each eagle gets its own. This seriously affects tactics.

 

You need to stop this hearsay GG. You hear one thing then suddenly that becomes standard procedure for everything Russian.

 

You probably read on some forum that Yuri Bloggs took 10 seconds in his random Russian aircraft to lock something up one time and you equate that to all Russian radars take 10 seconds to lock something up, the same as firing two R-27Rs salvos at everything that moves no matter how many they're carrying and one ECM pod between a flight of four.

 

You make outrageous claims such as never being able to fire on an F-15 until 120C rtr etc. without even contemplating the situation it may face or how weak jammers, especially fighter aircraft jammers, become when more than one source attacks it, you also fail to contemplate how an ARH would fair against an advanced jammer. And to top it off you never see a weakness in US aircraft when there are so many not only in the parts but in the lack of upgrades and equipment not working to spec. Datalink is often brought up on these forums but it was cancelled in 1989. The fact that the F-15 in DCS doesn't warrant AIM-120C because it is a pre 120C radar and cockpit set, the TWS bar scan is vastly over modeled by real life specification and the question is should TWS even be on a PSP radar.

 

This is all part of what makes the pretty even fight that Rage talks about.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Frostie

[GGTharos]

You need to stop this hearsay GG.

 

You need to do your own, real research.

 

You probably read on some forum that Yuri Bloggs took 10 seconds in his random Russian aircraft to lock something up one time and you equate that to all Russian radars take 10 seconds to lock something up, the same as firing two R-27Rs salvos at everything that moves no matter how many they're carrying and one ECM pod between a flight of four.

I suggest talking to real pilots, not reading Yuri Bloggs' page.

 

You make outrageous claims such as never being able to fire on an F-15 until 120C rtr etc. without even contemplating the situation it may face or how weak jammers, especially fighter aircraft jammers, become when more than one source attacks it, you also fail to contemplate how an ARH would fair against an advanced jammer.

Which Su-27S carries an advanced jammer? That's right, none of'em. What about 'ARH and advanced jammers'? Nothing, either - which advanced jammers? What do they do? What do they want? Why does a 120 care when it's getting fed deconfliction data from more than one source? Will it cause problems? Sure. You know who's going to have even more problems? An R-27 guided by an N001.

 

And to top it off you never see a weakness in US aircraft when there are so many not only in the parts but in the lack of upgrades and equipment not working to spec. Datalink is often brought up on these forums but it was cancelled in 1989.

I'm aware of the weaknesses.

 

The fact that the F-15 in DCS doesn't warrant AIM-120C because it is a pre 120C radar and cockpit set, the TWS bar scan is vastly over modeled by real life specification and the question is should TWS even be on a PSP radar.

TWS is described in the -34, and it was there before AIM-120 was ever put on the plane operationally. It's also grossly under-modeled, even for that era. So is RWS for that matter.

 

This is all part of what makes the pretty even fight that Rage talks about.

What makes a pretty even fight is avionics under-modelling on the eagle, and over-modeling on the russian jets, as well as the lack of distinction between missiles.

[Esac_mirmidon]

My fault, is not reduced at a maximum of +2G.

 

The maximum +G is reduced by 2 units.

 

For example:

 

R-27T/ET has a maximum plane maneuver G of +7, minus 2 with asymetric load = +5 NO -G.

 

R-27R/ER has a maximum plane maneuver G of + 5, minus 2 with asymetric load = +3 NO -G.

 

R-73 has a maximum plane maneuver G of + 8, minus 2 with asymetric load = +6 NO -G.

[*Rage*]

You need to do your own, real research

We all need to if we wanna talk science and not hearsay. You included.

 

Which Su-27S carries an advanced jammer? That's right, none of'em. What about 'ARH and advanced jammers'? Nothing, either - which advanced jammers? What do they do? What do they want? Why does a 120 care when it's getting fed deconfliction data from more than one source? Will it cause problems? Sure. You know who's going to have even more problems? An R-27 guided by an N001.

Perhaps. Hence the continued need for WVR capable jets and heaters, East and West. And..? We have enough trouble modeling missiles and seekers, let alone ECM and ECCM. Its a step beyond. Talking about that just muddies the waters even more. In my opinion they should just be removed from the game till we know what the hell to model.

 

I'm aware of the weaknesses.

But you will never admit to them. Why?

 

What makes a pretty even fight is avionics under-modelling on the eagle, and over-modeling on the russian jets, as well as the lack of distinction between missiles.

More hearsay with a sprinkling of whining:). Both jets have been somewhat mis-modeled for a long time (As might be expected for a non military sim). For example datalink on the 27 has been undermodeled for 10 years. Its finally getting some loving now. Things will continue to improve. Edited November 24, 2014 by ///Rage

[Esac_mirmidon]

About the time to lock a target with the radar and the LA is showed at the HUD:

 

When the radar gets a target lock the R/ER missile needs 2 seconds to adjust the guide frequency and the guide orders prior to be ready for launch. The R-27T/ET is ready for launch after a radar lock on inmediatly after his head seeker has a target lock.

 

The time for the radar to get a lock could move between 2-6 seconds.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Esac_mirmidon

[GGTharos]

Depending on range, IIRC, yes? I figured that was from the manual.

 

Does it actually say that it tunes all the missiles at the same time?

[Esac_mirmidon]

Range, altitude difference, Aspect angle and PRF mode. It seems that Encounter mode is faster at lock on than Pursuit mode and if the aspect angle is very wide the radar scan pattern has difficulties and takes more time. Also the manual advise the pilot to NOT descend or ascend at the same height than the target with a valid lock on when a R/ER missile is launched. It always recommend a vertical height difference between the target and the Su with a SARH in the air. At lower altitudes ( < 8000 meters ) less difference, ( 500 meters ) at higher altitudes ( > 8000 meters ) more difference, ( 1000 meters).

 

About if they tunned all missiles at the same time i think not. The manual always talk about the "selected missile" and the data beeing send to the missile when the radar has a lock on. So i supossed no, every missile has the target data at lock on, one by one.

 

Maybe the PAIRS launch mode send the data to both missiles but maybe in 2 seconds row, one row for each missile. Or maybe at the same time but only with a lock on and only for the selected missiles.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Esac_mirmidon

[karambiatos]

Esac_mirmidon do you perhaps know, if the bore mode has hold lock button capability, like the vertical scan mode?

[Esac_mirmidon]

Yes.

 

From the manual:

 

CAC Vertical Mode: Maneuver the plane to put the target between the vertical lines ( lock on zone for IRST or Radar ). Press button ENTER ( lock on ) on the throttle and keep it pressed until lock on by the radar the IRST or the missile heat seeker. When the HUD shows the sign LA, launch the missile.

 

CAC Boresight Mode: Maneuver the plane or move the Boresight circle with the Stick hat and press the ENTER button on the throttle. Keep pressed until lock on by the radar, the IRST or the missile heat seeker.

 

For T/ET missiles: If the lock on is only with the missile heat seeker the ENTER button must be pressed all the time until launch.

 

If the radar or the IRST has a valid lock, the HUD must show the lock on mode.

 

If the missile heat seeker has a valid lock, the HUD shows the LA order inmediatly. If the pilot release the ENTER button before the SUB ( weapons manager system ) gets his launch solution, the LA indication on the HUD dissapears.

 

For R-73 missiles: In Boresight mode ( also in Helmet mode ) if the pilot release the ENTER button, the lock on is lost and the SUB enters in auto lock mode and it´s possible to lock in autonomous mode any other target in the missile heat seeker FOV.

 

To reset this auto mode the pilot must press the RESET button and make another lock on of the dessired target.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Esac_mirmidon

[will-]

Did you know in dcs you can...

 

Launch in tws x2 ET ER and get kills...

 

Why are people using r's with locks anyways? I presumed they were used for jamming targets like aim7 flood.

 

This is just how the game works and tested. No idea how they act IRL.

[GGTharos]

Definitely not the way you described it, so if your description is accurate, that's a bug.

[ShuRugal]

Slightly oblique? You were strictly saying AMRAAM equals a god button.

 

Yes, that's called 'hyperbole'. If you'd like the literal truth: Every AIM-120 which has gone into terminal guidance mode against me has killed me, most of them withing the time it takes for my RWR to get off 3-5 beeps.

 

 

You have more than enough tools to deal with ARH wielding opposition in the form of datalink and some other stuff.

 

do tell, then, exactly how datalink helps me get out from underneath that bloodhound of a missile. Also, if you could describe to me the default keybinds to activate this magical "other stuff", i would be grateful.

 

 

To be really honest if we had working TWS radar memory+datalink+ARHs flying towards last known intercept point in case the bug is lost instead of going full retard you wouldn't stand half the chance you do now.

 

translation: "Not only are you wrong for saying that AMRAAM is OP, but it should really be even MORE OP, so how 'bout you show me some gratitude for letting you take the smaller schlong"

 

You should be happy you got an upgraded HDD along the flightmodel which nobody expected and AFAIK holds the capability of plane 2 plane datalink.

I would trade AMRAAM capability for a p2p datalink any day probably, the potential is insane.

 

alright, prove it. Grab an SU-27 and show us all how boss you are.

 

 

See above. You pretend it's harder for you, truth be told it's quite well balanced

 

bologna. Put me against an F-15 who is using Sparrows, and I'll break even with him in most fights. Give that same pilot AMRAAMS, and I lose every time, unless I manage to get the drop on him and kill him before he can come about and pitbull a few.

 

The best I have ever achieved against an F-15 who knew I was there was a Mexican suicide: His AMRAAM went terminal and killed me after my Alamo greased him. The simple fact that I -have- to maintain a hot aspect to get a kill gives every Eagle driver the ability to reach out and get me from beyond the grave, and that is what gives the Eagle its edge: If I want to survive an engagement with an Eagle, I must disengage the moment he launches, and since AMRAAM doesn't trip RWR until terminal phase, I have to assume that any hot eagle within 40km has launched.

[Svend_Dellepude]

Put me against an F-15 who is using Sparrows, and I'll break even with him in most fights.

 

Then you are doing something wrong. In the sim you should have first shot opportunity and you have 2 more missiles, unless you are with jammer pods.

 

 

The best I have ever achieved against an F-15 who knew I was there was a Mexican suicide: His AMRAAM went terminal and killed me after my Alamo greased him.

 

Mutual kills isn't really a win for anybody, is it?

[SFJackBauer]

Yes, that's called 'hyperbole'. If you'd like the literal truth: Every AIM-120 which has gone into terminal guidance mode against me has killed me, most of them withing the time it takes for my RWR to get off 3-5 beeps.

 

I fly quasi-regularly in MP and TeamSpeak. Not-so-long ago, I join TS and there is already two guys flying together in Flankers; I join them in a three-ship. We talk a bit during spool-up and taxi, and they are nice fellas, like almost everyone you would meet in DCS MP. Also seems reasonable on their knowledge of the aircraft systems and weapons.

 

We takeoff, I am happy to hang out a little behind in an Eagle. They then see a target, point their nose at him and run straight at him. The exchanged information in TS (target aspect, range) has little tactical value and no engagement/evasive plans are agreed beforehand. Its just running. They lost track of altitude and begin to drift higher and contrailing. They know about the Eagle TWS mode, but disregard the lights ticking out in the Beryoza (I, flying a Flanker, always assume being painted by an F-15, lacking better intel). They then fire an ER, the bandit goes defensive, and from "nowhere" as they say, the slammers come and... its too late to defeat. Both get killed within seconds, and I am watching from further back, analyzing the actions and reactions.

 

They get frustrated in TS (never admitting their lack of SA and tactics :music_whistling:), but quickly shrug it off and we take off again. This time, I think, they will do diferent. No. Its almost a replay of before, with only slight differences. This time they run nose cold, only relying on EOS, to get more close and "undetected". By the time they decide to turn the radar on, they get killed again, this time by an ET shot by a low-flying flanker, and from an Eagle at 40k feet. They get frustrated again, and quit.

 

Now here is my point:

 

- Should I blame them for their failures? No. They are not taking it "seriously", they are just having fun, so you take the consequences of not applying yourself to it. But also they dont come to the forums whine and complain about things they have no idea about.

 

- Should I blame DCS, perhaps, lack of realism, or symmetry, or assymetry, for their failures, or even my failures? No. If a person hops into a Flanker against Eagles in MP, he better 1) know (as in study) his choice of weapon and the enemy's choice) and 2) come up with a better tactic than running blindly into radar blips that he dont know if are "packing heat" (in this case... ARHs). Even if that means he lands in the end with zero kills.

 

Or this person can remain in denial and think he is right and the world is wrong.

[ShuRugal]

- Should I blame DCS, perhaps, lack of realism, or symmetry, or assymetry, for their failures, or even my failures? No. If a person hops into a Flanker against Eagles in MP, he better 1) know (as in study) his choice of weapon and the enemy's choice) and 2) come up with a better tactic than running blindly into radar blips that he dont know if are "packing heat" (in this case... ARHs). Even if that means he lands in the end with zero kills.

 

Or this person can remain in denial and think he is right and the world is wrong.

 

reasonable points, but they beg the question of what, exactly, is someone supposed to do when they know/suspect that the other blip is an eagle?

 

At this point, the only thing I have been able to do which keeps me alive is to disengage. If the eagle is aware of my presence before I launch, I have, at best, a 50% chance of coming out alive, even if i kill him. The only time I have survived killing an F-15 online is when I was able to achieve perfect surprise: Either by popping up out of the mountains abeam of him, or by dropping out of the sky from 15km+ elevation and slotting in behind him.

 

But what do you do about a force of F-15s that are maintaining good SA? My main complaint is that, as things stand right now, a charlie eagle can kill any flanker which it is aware of from outside of where the flanker can kill it. Best-case scenario against an eagle who knows you are there is mutual kill. The only time I survive an equal battle with an Eagle is when the pilot doesn't leverage the range and reliability advantages of his AMRAAMs (IE: when he goes defensive before popping off a slammer).

[Svend_Dellepude]

The description that SFJackBauer gave is the sure way of getting killed and respawn to get killed again 10 mins later and so on.

That was exactly what I was doing too for a long time and not realizing what exactly got me killed every time. It wasn't my flying, I can do all the fun hi-speed stuff at low level, flying under bridges, between buildings, work the radar reasonably well etc. It was not having a plan other than racing to Bulls and engaging the first guy i saw only to loose track around 20nm and then get blown up 1 min later because i was continuing straight into his missile.

Now I'm a bit more picky about my fights. If i don't have the advantage or it doesn't look like I have a good chance of gaining it, I don't go there.

I never spam my missiles. Give the first a chance to, then prepare to follow up when it should have hit. Many times I see the splash seconds after i shot the second or third one, but just do whatever it takes to deny the bandit a shot. 10 missiles doesn't get you 10 hits, and it shouldn't.

If you have launch parameters you should expect the bandit to have it too, so don't be afraid to leave the first missile if that will give you a chance to shoot a second one.

If you know how to notch you will find it very useful if it's done at the right moment.

 

The short story is that it sounds like you should pick your fights a bit better.

I know that the SA in the flanker is horrible (at least for me it is), but if you have a mission with awacs you have a clear advantage, and those lone eagles will start falling out of the sky pretty soon.

 

Cheers

[TAW_Blaze]

My fault, is not reduced at a maximum of +2G.

 

The maximum +G is reduced by 2 units.

 

For example:

 

R-27T/ET has a maximum plane maneuver G of +7, minus 2 with asymetric load = +5 NO -G.

 

R-27R/ER has a maximum plane maneuver G of + 5, minus 2 with asymetric load = +3 NO -G.

 

R-73 has a maximum plane maneuver G of + 8, minus 2 with asymetric load = +6 NO -G.

 

I see, thanks for the correction!

 

 

Yes' date=' that's called 'hyperbole'. If you'd like the literal truth: Every AIM-120 which has gone into terminal guidance mode against me has killed me, most of them withing the time it takes for my RWR to get off 3-5 beeps.[/quote']

 

Every single AMRAAM that went active on you killed you?

 

1) That's a lie.

 

2) Even then, this means from an objective point of view, that you're a god awful pilot.

 

do tell' date=' then, exactly how datalink helps me get out from underneath that bloodhound of a missile. Also, if you could describe to me the default keybinds to activate this magical "other stuff", i would be grateful.[/quote']

 

Nobody forces you to jump into a bunch of missiles. Nor to enter a bad fight. Datalink is godly because it gives you insane situational awaraness compared to anything the F-15C has. I am forced to keep everything in my head and scan the whole area alone based on a specific pattern that I've worked out over time, while you're looking at your MFD that gives you everything immediately. If you know the position of the enemies you can go around them and force them into fights they can't or don't want to take. You have EOS to combine with this, making the Flanker an excellent tool to ambush people.

 

translation: "Not only are you wrong for saying that AMRAAM is OP' date=' but it should really be even MORE OP, so how 'bout you show me some gratitude for letting you take the smaller schlong"[/quote']

 

It was just an example that you should stop your crying because when things change you will probably get the even shorter end of the stick.

 

alright' date=' prove it. Grab an SU-27 and show us all how boss you are.[/quote']

 

I don't fly the 27. I flew it for training and I've tried what it can do, except for the recent PFM. I simply can't put up with the russian avionics.

 

bologna. Put me against an F-15 who is using Sparrows' date=' and I'll break even with him in most fights. Give that same pilot AMRAAMS, and I lose every time, unless I manage to get the drop on him and kill him before he can come about and pitbull a few.[/quote']

 

Defeat a guy using Sparrows with what? ER? Are you joking again?

 

You can defeat AMRAAM wielding Eagle drivers if you know what you're doing. I've done it, and arguably against better guys than anyone you will randomly find on the servers.

 

The best I have ever achieved against an F-15 who knew I was there was a Mexican suicide: His AMRAAM went terminal and killed me after my Alamo greased him. The simple fact that I -have- to maintain a hot aspect to get a kill gives every Eagle driver the ability to reach out and get me from beyond the grave' date=' and that is what gives the Eagle its edge: If I want to survive an engagement with an Eagle, I must disengage the moment he launches, and since AMRAAM doesn't trip RWR until terminal phase, I have to assume that any hot eagle within 40km has launched.[/quote']

 

Overall impression. You know next to nothing about air combat and you're unwilling to learn and you blame it all on the game instead. Consider that constructive criticism, because it is.

 

But what do you do about a force of F-15s that are maintaining good SA?

 

1) You aren't supposed to beat a flight of competent Eagle drivers alone.

 

2) That is typically the opposite of what you see on the server, people fly around not knowing what's going on around.

 

My main complaint is that' date=' as things stand right now, a charlie eagle can kill any flanker which it is aware of from outside of where the flanker can kill it.[/quote']

 

Eagles may have the advantage in most cases against a Flanker in a straight up fight, but there are positions where the Flanker is stronger.

 

The first thing you need to do is give up the idea that an Eagle is unbeatable in a straight up fight. It's not. It's all a matter of the pilot. PM me whenever you dropped the idea of blaming everything on the game, I can help you learn. If you don't want to learn, I can't help.

[*Rage*]

Shurugal. Your issue is this. In a 1v1 fight it is difficult to beat the Eagle but it is definately possible even in a straight up BVR head to head joust from 60km. You need to know what you are doing. You have to be aggressive and maneuver aggressively. The ERs out range The 120s as altitude increases. You need to launch first and keep launching while descending until you get the kill or force him to run home. While bleeding his missiles of energy. Its takes perfect timing and alot of practice but you can hold ypur ground. Theres alot more to it but thats a basic headline.

 

The trouble with that on MP servers is there is very little spontaneous teamwork going on. So while thats all happening you'll probably be engaged by another bandit so you either break off or push harder and probably get yourself killed.

 

Ultimately you need a dependable, well trained wingman.

 

When the server is 20+ players populated then it becomes a happy go lucky mountain furball and those high flying tactics are alot more dangerous.

 

I would suggest you get a sparring partner, turn externals and labels on, experiment and understand whats going on.

Edited November 25, 2014 by ///Rage

[Sciatis]

I am a total newb and I am willing to learn SU27, I love the plane.

 

So heres my first question: (needless to say, a newbie one :P)

 

How do I turn on IRST sensor/mode, does it turn on by turning on Elector-optical system (default keybind "O")?

 

Any suggestions on video guides/tutorials I could look up?

[*Rage*]

I am a total newb and I am willing to learn SU27, I love the plane.

 

So heres my first question: (needless to say, a newbie one :P)

 

How do I turn on IRST sensor/mode, does it turn on by turning on Elector-optical system (default keybind "O")?

 

Any suggestions on video guides/tutorials I could look up?

 

Yes, O for EOS.

 

Have a read through the new flanker manual

 

https://mega.co.nz/#!xw8DybLB!UE3I8A...elKmZunvY05-Hc

 

Then fly the training missions. You'll find them under FC3 missions and not in the training tab if you have FC3.

 

Welcome

Edited November 25, 2014 by ///Rage