Su-27 Weapon Systems and Missiles

[Sciatis]

Yes, O for EOS.

 

Have a read through the new flanker manual

 

https://mega.co.nz/#!xw8DybLB!UE3I8A...elKmZunvY05-Hc

 

Then fly the training missions. You'll find them under FC3 missions and not in the training tab if you have FC3.

 

Welcome

 

Alright, thanks. I'll check those missions out.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Sciatis

[ShuRugal]

I see, thanks for the correction!

Every single AMRAAM that went active on you killed you?

 

1) That's a lie.

 

2) Even then, this means from an objective point of view, that you're a god awful pilot.

 

every blasted one of them. If I am fighting an Eagle and my RWR starts beeping, I get blasted within 5 seconds, every time. I might just be a horrible pilot, but it seems to me that 5 seconds warning is an awful short amount of time to take evasive action.

 

Maybe there is something I could be doing to bleed the missile out so it's not running so fast when it goes active, but I've yet to find out what that is.

 

 

Nobody forces you to jump into a bunch of missiles. Nor to enter a bad fight. Datalink is godly because it gives you insane situational awaraness compared to anything the F-15C has. I am forced to keep everything in my head and scan the whole area alone based on a specific pattern that I've worked out over time, while you're looking at your MFD that gives you everything immediately. If you know the position of the enemies you can go around them and force them into fights they can't or don't want to take. You have EOS to combine with this, making the Flanker an excellent tool to ambush people.

 

If you think that SU-27 datalink is so amazing, you've obviously not used it on your own squad's server. Last weekend when I was flying on 104th, there were more dead blips which hadn't been cleared from tracking memory yet than there were live. And on top of that, AWACS updates were coming at 30 second intervals, or not at all. I got canned twice by a fighter that came down on me from 8km altitude and never once showed on HSD.

 

And even if we have ideal circumstances and assume that the Datalink is working perfectly, the SPO on the F-15 grants a ridiculous amount of awareness about active threats. Granted, it's not much use against an ET shot, but if I'm in position to take an ET shot, the F-15 driver has probably already screwed something else up pretty bad. If i'm engaging with ERs (as is usually the case) the moment I start preparing to take a shot, that F-15 knows exactly what I am and where to find me.

 

 

It was just an example that you should stop your crying because when things change you will probably get the even shorter end of the stick.

 

maybe this is not your intent, but i am reading this as "you're right, it does suck to fly the SU-27 against the Eagle right now, and soon it will get even worse, so enjoy it while it lasts!"

 

 

I don't fly the 27. I flew it for training and I've tried what it can do, except for the recent PFM. I simply can't put up with the russian avionics.

 

Whereas I started out flying the F-15 online, and I switched to the SU-27 because getting kills in the F-15 never felt satisfying: I didn't feel like I was getting kills because I had outmaneuvered the other guy, but because I saw him first and my missiles are more reliable.

 

Which is the other half of the argument: Switching between the two aircraft should be a different experience not because one is so much -better- than the other, but because they have different strengths and weaknesses. The avionics update we got with the PFM in the SU-27 -is- an improvement in that area, but it still has a ways to go if it is going to make up for the disparity in missile performance.

 

 

Defeat a guy using Sparrows with what? ER? Are you joking again?

 

um, no? I've honestly never seen a sparrow kill message. Maybe this is just because people don't use them? Should i be scared of Sparrows?

 

You can defeat AMRAAM wielding Eagle drivers if you know what you're doing. I've done it, and arguably against better guys than anyone you will randomly find on the servers.

 

know that it is possible to kill an eagle head-to-head with a flanker, because i've seen other people do it, but doing so usually appears to involve the Eagle driver making a mistake (firing either too late or much too early, breaking off before slammer goes pitbull, etc.). Now, I will concede that a better pilot than I am will be able to leverage such mistakes to greater effect than I can, but I have yet to see a situation where a top-notch eagle pilot loses to a top-notch flanker pilot in a jousting match twice running.

 

Overall impression. You know next to nothing about air combat and you're unwilling to learn and you blame it all on the game instead. Consider that constructive criticism, because it is.

 

Compared to someone who flies with 104th? That's a reasonably fair assessment.

 

1) You aren't supposed to beat a flight of competent Eagle drivers alone.

I don't expect to beat a flight of incompetent eagle drivers alone, provided they have enough coordination between them to scan in multiple directions.

 

 

2) That is typically the opposite of what you see on the server, people fly around not knowing what's going on around.

And in that environment, I can and do exploit the Flankers advantage with passive sensors and datalink. And it gets me kills at least as often as not.

 

 

Eagles may have the advantage in most cases against a Flanker in a straight up fight, but there are positions where the Flanker is stronger.

Right, people keep saying this, but I have yet to hear any specifics about what positions in a straight fight give the flanker a leg up.

 

The first thing you need to do is give up the idea that an Eagle is unbeatable in a straight up fight. It's not. It's all a matter of the pilot. PM me whenever you dropped the idea of blaming everything on the game, I can help you learn. If you don't want to learn, I can't help.

 

PM inbound.

 

Shurugal. Your issue is this. In a 1v1 fight it is difficult to beat the Eagle but it is definately possible even in a straight up BVR head to head joust from 60km. You need to know what you are doing. You have to be aggressive and maneuver aggressively. The ERs out range The 120s as altitude increases. You need to launch first and keep launching while descending until you get the kill or force him to run home. While bleeding his missiles of energy. Its takes perfect timing and alot of practice but you can hold ypur ground. Theres alot more to it but thats a basic headline.

 

I really don't consider using four missiles to kill one target to be an advantage. At that point all I am doing is spamming him with RWR alerts and hoping he loses his nerve.

 

 

Ultimately you need a dependable, well trained wingman.

 

with the limited time I have to play (weekends only) I cannot reliably find one of those.

[GGTharos]

If I am fighting an Eagle and my RWR starts beeping, I get blasted within 5 seconds, every time. I might just be a horrible pilot, but it seems to me that 5 seconds warning is an awful short amount of time to take evasive action.

 

Yep, you're a bad (combat) pilot. Nothing wrong with that, it's not easy stuff and given what you've written further down, you don't have the time to study or practice for this. This is the result.

 

5 seconds warning time is the point: Everyone, including your jammer, gets to have less time to react - although in this game your jammer isn't doing much. IF your jammer is on, it makes it even worse for you as the warning will come even later.

 

Maybe there is something I could be doing to bleed the missile out so it's not running so fast when it goes active, but I've yet to find out what that is.

 

You know how far he is, you know when he's likely to fire, so why are you flying straight at him? No need to wait for any warning.

 

And even if we have ideal circumstances and assume that the Datalink is working perfectly, the SPO on the F-15 grants a ridiculous amount of awareness about active threats.

 

That is also the point, yes.

 

Granted, it's not much use against an ET shot, but if I'm in position to take an ET shot, the F-15 driver has probably already screwed something else up pretty bad. If i'm engaging with ERs (as is usually the case) the moment I start preparing to take a shot, that F-15 knows exactly what I am and where to find me.

 

The Russian fighters aren't quite up to snuff for BVR in this case, but they're not slouches either. However, they have the ability to use sneaky tactics to make up for it. If you're not set up for sneaky tactics, that's pretty much on you, right? Can't complain about your equipment, you're the one who chose your ride. Dissimilar combat is the idea here.

 

maybe this is not your intent, but i am reading this as "you're right, it does suck to fly the SU-27 against the Eagle right now, and soon it will get even worse, so enjoy it while it lasts!"

 

Technically speaking it should be and could be harder, but the same counter-measures, and more, should be available. But you shouldn't expect to fly right at an F-15 and engage it successfully unless you're attacking from a serious positional advantage. Note, this is all 'should'. This still applies in game, but you're not in as bad a situation as you could be in terms of the equipment.

 

Whereas I started out flying the F-15 online, and I switched to the SU-27 because getting kills in the F-15 never felt satisfying: I didn't feel like I was getting kills because I had outmaneuvered the other guy, but because I saw him first and my missiles are more reliable.

 

I apologize for the dig ahead of time, but a) that's how it should be (this is a very general combat rule - see first, shoot first is usually what decides the winner) and b) now you know what it's like to fly against yourself - most people fly like you're describing :)

 

Try flying against some of the experienced flanker drivers here - I'm a little surprised they haven't jumped in to help you in detail :)

 

Which is the other half of the argument: Switching between the two aircraft should be a different experience not because one is so much -better- than the other, but because they have different strengths and weaknesses. The avionics update we got with the PFM in the SU-27 -is- an improvement in that area, but it still has a ways to go if it is going to make up for the disparity in missile performance.

 

They do have different strengths and weaknesses. An F-15 should rule BVR, a Su-27 should rule the WVR arena. The WVR has worked out right, the BVR, not so much. When you grow more experienced in BVR you'll understand the meaning of this.

 

um, no? I've honestly never seen a sparrow kill message. Maybe this is just because people don't use them? Should i be scared of Sparrows?

 

Seen plenty. They shoot people down because of the expectation to see an active, and see the decreasing 'death timer', and thus knowing just when to pull that last-second maneuver ... but the sparrow provides none of this to them.

 

know that it is possible to kill an eagle head-to-head with a flanker, because i've seen other people do it, but doing so usually appears to involve the Eagle driver making a mistake (firing either too late or much too early, breaking off before slammer goes pitbull, etc.). Now, I will concede that a better pilot than I am will be able to leverage such mistakes to greater effect than I can, but I have yet to see a situation where a top-notch eagle pilot loses to a top-notch flanker pilot in a jousting match twice running.

 

That's pretty much right. You shouldn't really see that happen. That's how it should be if you try a 'fair', straight-up fight. So don't do it unless you know your opponent to be weak.

 

Compared to someone who flies with 104th? That's a reasonably fair assessment.

 

Most of the people who fly online suck. Period, end of story. The regulars you see around are well, regulars, well experienced and spend time on being better than the average vPilot. Training is a big deal.

 

I don't expect to beat a flight of incompetent eagle drivers alone, provided they have enough coordination between them to scan in multiple directions.

 

Not eagle drivers, any drivers. Alone vs a competent team, just don't do it! O.o

 

Right, people keep saying this, but I have yet to hear any specifics about what positions in a straight fight give the flanker a leg up.

 

None. Technically you should have a leg up by being higher and faster, but the game doesn't support this very well right now - for anyone, not just flankers. But make no mistake, in ALL cases the preferred attack is ambush. It's the same for any aircraft: You use fewer munitions, put yourself as less risk.

 

The general tactic is to sneak in an un-targeted shooter. As a lonewolf, you really can't arrange for such a thing easily.

 

I really don't consider using four missiles to kill one target to be an advantage. At that point all I am doing is spamming him with RWR alerts and hoping he loses his nerve.

 

It doesn't matter what you consider it to be - you simply do what you can and what you must.

 

with the limited time I have to play (weekends only) I cannot reliably find one of those.

 

But hopefully this Rage dude can communicate some useful techniques to you so your lone-wolfing experience can be improved :)

[ShuRugal]

<snip>

 

PM inbound. You raise some interesting points i would like to address in detail.

[TAW_Blaze]

I'll reply to the post/PM sometime today or tomorrow, but knowing myself probably today. 2nd to last week of the term so things got a little busy.

 

EDIT: found some time to reply here, PM later

 

every blasted one of them. If I am fighting an Eagle and my RWR starts beeping, I get blasted within 5 seconds, every time. I might just be a horrible pilot, but it seems to me that 5 seconds warning is an awful short amount of time to take evasive action.

 

Maybe there is something I could be doing to bleed the missile out so it's not running so fast when it goes active, but I've yet to find out what that is.

The key here is that you seem to think defending missiles begin with the missile being fired. That is utterly wrong. The idea is that you have to defend against any possible attack before it happens. You do this by taking a position that makes it hard for the enemy to effectively attack you while leaving yourself in the position of attack. I won't go further into this as this isn't a tactics & strategy type of thread, but I'll rather discuss it in PM later.

 

If you think that SU-27 datalink is so amazing, you've obviously not used it on your own squad's server. Last weekend when I was flying on 104th, there were more dead blips which hadn't been cleared from tracking memory yet than there were live

Yea that bug is quite annoying and degrades the use of datalink to some extent. Not so much that it's worthless though.

 

And on top of that, AWACS updates were coming at 30 second intervals, or not at all. I got canned twice by a fighter that came down on me from 8km altitude and never once showed on HSD.

Well the AWACS has some limitations aswell and just because it has LoS on a target it doesn't mean it'll always see it. Depending on aspect the guy can reduce detection range to the AWACS.

 

And even if we have ideal circumstances and assume that the Datalink is working perfectly, the SPO on the F-15 grants a ridiculous amount of awareness about active threats.

I agree although from what I heard it's missing a lot of features.

 

Granted, it's not much use against an ET shot, but if I'm in position to take an ET shot, the F-15 driver has probably already screwed something else up pretty bad. If i'm engaging with ERs (as is usually the case) the moment I start preparing to take a shot, that F-15 knows exactly what I am and where to find me.

As for a mistake of SA, yes, but depending on the circumstances there can be people who fly by unnoticed. IIRC you can fire ERs from EOS and it'll go into STT so he'll have a wild Flanker looking at him with an immediate missile launch. He'll probably start cursing if he didn't know about you already..

 

maybe this is not your intent, but i am reading this as "you're right, it does suck to fly the SU-27 against the Eagle right now, and soon it will get even worse, so enjoy it while it lasts!"

It doesn't suck, it's just difficult to face them in a straight up fight in the usual server scenario. I may not be fully aware of what's missing from the Flanker, but in my opinion with some of the particular functionalities missing from the Eagle being added it would have an even bigger edge. You would basically have a strong (potentially, stronger then currently, difficult to tell) radar, p2p datalink much like the Flanker will have soon, far superior RWR, and an ARH against SARH. It could be a possibility though that by that time we get a later variant Flanker with upgraded (?) avionics and 77 capability. But then again we might not, because we're talking about a massive overhaul of the whole jet.

 

Whereas I started out flying the F-15 online, and I switched to the SU-27 because getting kills in the F-15 never felt satisfying: I didn't feel like I was getting kills because I had outmaneuvered the other guy, but because I saw him first and my missiles are more reliable.

Surely getting a SARH kill is more thrilling and memorable than killing someone with the ARH just due to the fact you are forced to support it all along. I simply like the NATO 'craft a lot more, especially the avionics. Russian radar operation for me is just.. no.. no way.

 

Which is the other half of the argument: Switching between the two aircraft should be a different experience not because one is so much -better- than the other, but because they have different strengths and weaknesses. The avionics update we got with the PFM in the SU-27 -is- an improvement in that area, but it still has a ways to go if it is going to make up for the disparity in missile performance.

Both of them have their strengths and weaknesses.

 

um, no? I've honestly never seen a sparrow kill message. Maybe this is just because people don't use them? Should i be scared of Sparrows?

The point of my question was, that you said you would break even against Sparrows. But with what? ER/ET? Because in that scenario you have a bigger edge over the other guy than AMRAAM vs ER. Sparrow vs 27R/T is somewhat equal, each of the two has some distinct advantages over the other that you can use to beat the other guy. But you won't see people loading 27R/T on a regular server. Sometimes you run into a 80s restricted mission and then you have to.

 

Most people don't carry any 7s at all, some like to carry them over 9s, some will even swap out AMRAAMs for them. 7s can be good when you're trying to save a friendly or just want to troll someone. But let me tell you a short example, if you try to straight up fight a half decent Flanker pilot with ERs with your Sparrow you are going to lose pretty much every time.

 

know that it is possible to kill an eagle head-to-head with a flanker, because i've seen other people do it, but doing so usually appears to involve the Eagle driver making a mistake (firing either too late or much too early, breaking off before slammer goes pitbull, etc.). Now, I will concede that a better pilot than I am will be able to leverage such mistakes to greater effect than I can, but I have yet to see a situation where a top-notch eagle pilot loses to a top-notch flanker pilot in a jousting match twice running.

Everyone makes mistakes, even the best pilots. Obviously there is a margin depending on pilot skill that how bad the mistake will be and how much it'll affect the fight. What you have to understand is that for a Flanker to carry out a complete 1v1 duel in a server at high altitude is almost impossible. 9 out of 10 times some other bullshit is going to force you to leave the fight.

 

I rememember a few months back I had a bit of a duel against Rage on our server. He started at 40k+ ft storming down on me firing from outside 20nm or so and I was at my usual 25k ft. I might have seen him some time before he actually fired so I started to climb but I didn't make it above 30k before things started to turn really bad. To break this situation down, he is in the most dangerous position (ERs are really scary at high altitude) and has a massive advantage over me. Somehow I freaked him out to make a mistake of ditching the fight even though my slammer had next to no chance of hitting. I'm saying all this because in the end no matter how good you are or how good of a position you have if you make a big enough mistake all of that is washed away. This is also true the other way around. But of course if you're in that disadvantage you have to force him into a mistake otherwise bad stuff are gonna happen to you.

 

In other cases there were Flankers flying in the dirt absolutely having nothing to do with any form of a winning position killing me because I made mistakes. The other point was, you rarely ever see a real 1v1 duel on a server. Something always happens. If it doesn't, then I'll just assume that something will happen and I'll leave the fight due to lost SA.

 

Compared to someone who flies with 104th? That's a reasonably fair assessment.

Well for a consecutive amount of posts I saw nothing but a list of what the game's faults are. I'm an expert of bashing the game, trust me it's not helpful. If anything it will ruin the fun of flying. But you're making progress so it's good.

 

Right, people keep saying this, but I have yet to hear any specifics about what positions in a straight fight give the flanker a leg up.

Rage described the situation pretty well, you have to start high and early, and you have to spend a lot of missiles. Spending means not spamming, but using them in a reasonable order. Start with one from long range, follow up later, follow up again, etc. Firing multiple at once basically means you don't trust the guidance for shit, which is true in the game unfortunately.

 

I really don't consider using four missiles to kill one target to be an advantage. At that point all I am doing is spamming him with RWR alerts and hoping he loses his nerve.

That's exactly what you want to do. Take him away from his comfort zone, make him nervous, force him to make a mistake. There are situations where I fired way out of useful parameters and the guy did something so incredibly stupid that the next shot killed him when he had a massive advantage 5 seconds before that.

 

We didn't typically mean spamming stuff all at once though, again as I said above. You want to use your missiles to achieve some tactical change. At any point a tactical effect may alone be annoying someone.

 

As GG said aswell, you commit to a fight, there's no use of saving your resources if doing that will kill you or immediately remove you from the fight. Nobody will applaud you if you still have 6 missiles on the rails when you get blown up. I save my resources as much as I do because I was trained for it and my experience provides enough knowledge to judge it. Sometimes it still gets me killed.

Edited November 26, 2014 by <Blaze>

[*Rage*]

Most people have unrealistic expectations when it comes to MP. Especially if its not an organised event. Flankers and eagles are air superiority fighters. They have long range, carry lots of missiles and have powerful radars. They are designed to control the airspace. This is different to the traditional role of a point defense fighter like the F16 or Mig29. Naturally there is now some overlap with all the new blocks etc.

 

Your objective to start with is to not get killed. If you can get a kill in the process then even better. Expecting to go out there and bag 4 or 5 kills is unrealistic, especially in a 27. Even if you do its probably because you were lucky and/or fighting against beginners. Also more likely in a mountain fight type setting.

 

The question you have to ask when you enter a MP server is what type of fight is this gonna be? There is a world of difference between a mountain fight with AWACS cover and 20+ players crawling in the valleys and crevices and a long range fight with maybe only 10-15 players without AWACS cover. The tactics Blaze and I are describing relate to the latter scenario. When you next fly MP make an assessment of which scenario its gonna be and then fly accordingly.

 

Personally I prefer the long range stuff over the mountain crawling. It more realistic and its the skillset youre likely to need in an event like SATAC or Joint Warrior.

 

It would be far easier just to do a few sparring sessions than write a wall of text on how its done:) Im away this week but jump into our TS server next week and we can arrange something.

 

In the meantime if you want to a preview of how its done check Flankerators SA-sim site and download the tacviews of Joint warrior.

 

http://sa-sim.com/jw3-team-score-and-battle-logs/

 

I would suggest the final round 51st/UVAF vs 104th/36th if you wanna see top pilots do their thing. Remember its not just about getting kills all the time. Forcing your opponent to exit the fight is a mission kill of sorts. Not as satisfying as a fireball in the sky but nonetheless valuable.

Edited November 26, 2014 by ///Rage

[Nedum]

Most people have unrealistic expectations when it comes to MP. Especially if its not an organised event. Flankers and eagles are air superiority fighters. They have long range, carry lots of missiles and have powerful radars. They are designed to control the airspace. This is different to the traditional role of a point defense fighter like the F16 or Mig29. Naturally there is now some overlap with all the new blocks etc.

 

Your objective to start with is to not get killed. If you can get a kill in the process then even better. Expecting to go out there and bag 4 or 5 kills is unrealistic, especially in a 27. Even if you do its probably because you were lucky and/or fighting against beginners. Also more likely in a mountain fight type setting.

 

The question you have to ask when you enter a MP server is what type of fight is this gonna be? There is a world of difference between a mountain fight with AWACS cover and 20+ players crawling in the valleys and crevices and a long range fight with maybe only 10-15 players without AWACS cover. The tactics Blaze and I are describing relate to the latter scenario. When you next fly MP make an assessment of which scenario its gonna be and then fly accordingly.

 

Personally I prefer the long range stuff over the mountain crawling. It more realistic and its the skillset youre likely to need in an event like SATAC or Joint Warrior.

 

It would be far easier just to do a few sparring sessions than write a wall of text on how its done:) Im away this week but jump into our TS server next week and we can arrange something.

 

In the meantime if you want to a preview of how its done check Flankerators SA-sim site and download the tacviews of Joint warrior.

 

http://sa-sim.com/jw3-team-score-and-battle-logs/

 

I would suggest the final round 51st/UVAF vs 104th/36th if you wanna see top pilots do their thing. Remember its not just about getting kills all the time. Forcing your opponent to exit the fight is a mission kill of sorts. Not as satisfying as a fireball in the sky but nonetheless valuable.

 

Very well written.. thanks! :thumbup:

[SFAL]

One word and two nubers is all I have to say...

Those who fly with/aginst me know whats comming ;)

 

MIG 29C ;)

 

Yes the cockpit sux....the model sux... the radar sux.... still it will give the F15 a run for its money.

 

As always... dont fly and fight alone. Ts is your best friend....

learn to beam, notch...etc

[104th_Maverick]

Some interesting posts in this thread....

 

Rage hit the nail on the head when it comes to people expectations when flying online!

 

There are a some other things many people, especially newer pilots to the sim do NOT take into consideration.

 

For a long time... you WILL suck!

 

Air to air combat is not something that can be taught or picked up quickly, well being good at it anyway!

Being good at BVR takes 100s of hours of practice. What many people do not grasp is that they are way...way down the SA ladder, they think they know what they are doing but in reality they do not, this is when people start getting frustrated.

 

The harsh truth is you are going to get smashed when you fly against better pilots, especially people who have been doing this for years and have been trained by their squadrons.

 

No one has any right to 'expect' to be good at the sim, regardless of their background. Success only comes after many, many failures and the lessons learned from these failures. You have to earn the skills for BVR, they cannot be given to you.

Getting shot down is absolutely a key factor in getting better, you cannot progress without getting shot down.

 

The sooner you accept that the quicker your skills will increase, you have to learn from each time you got shot down so you can understand what to do differently the next time......There is no short cut!

When your climbing the 'ladder' of success it is more important to learn from your failures than to go out and shoot people down.

 

The best pilots in this sim are the best because they have 100s sometimes 1000s of hours of experience, we have all been shot down more times than we are comfortable with however what's key is that we learn what happened in that situation, we identify where we went wrong and how to do better next time.

 

People who rage quit or blame the game for their failings stay at a certain level of skill, they do not progress on and become better pilots.

 

I have personally seen this many times, we have taken pilots on who did not have a great skill set initially and then turned them into killers....how? Well we obviously train them however what is more important than that is we educate our aircrew to adopt the correct mentality.

 

And this is the correct mentality.....

 

If you get shot down, it is your fault! You alone are responsible for what happens to your aircraft.

You cannot blame the missiles, the sim, the server or anything else.

Ultimately the decisions you made leading up to getting shot down got you killed, nothing else...

 

You have to take responsibility for your actions and decisions, I don't take any sh!t from my guys and I wont allow them to assign blame on something external, we train our crew to man up and take responsibility so they can improve.

 

Some examples of 'bullsh!t'...

Went 1vs2 and got shot down? - It was your choice to take on 2 aircraft

Missile didn't track my bandit - Why are you only firing one then?

That client was lagging - Then why did you press in on him?

The AFM sent me into a spin - The aircraft does what YOU tell it

That guy jumped me out of nowhere - Your SA sucks!

I ran out of fuel - Just GTFO!

 

New guys need to throw their ego out of the cockpit and just get on with the grind, like I said there is no short cut to becoming good at air combat but you can make it easier by...

 

 

• Being on TeamSpeak,
  
• Finding a reliable Wingman,
  
• Reviewing Tracks using TacView,
  
• Doing training sessions with a sparring partner,
  
• Knowing your aircraft / weapons and their limits,
  
• Knowing your enemies aircraft / weapons and their limits,
  
• Join a squadron who knows what they are doing!
  

 

The people who don't adopt the right attitude to learning from failure do not last in the sim, I have seen 100s come and go because they get too frustrated and rage quit.

 

Some of the best pilots in this sim started off as some of the worst, it was their attitude that made the difference and their ability to accept that the road to success is long and hard, but training is what gets you there, training and learning, not expectations!

 

Success from failure, if you don't find it ..... you'll keep failing!

[JunMcKill]

From Wiki:

 

"R-27R and ER variants can be used in any meteorological conditions. Launch can made at less than 5 g overload and less 50 deg/s roll rate.It is allowed to redesignate targets during flight, or sharing target illumination with other aircraft.

 

R-27T and ET variants can be used out of cloudiness, at least 15 degrees away from the bearing of sun, and 4 degrees away from the bearing of moon and ground based head-contrasting conditions. In cases of maximum head-on range launches where lock-command cannot be utilised, missile can be fired in PPS: In this mode, missile will fly straight until achieves target lock. As missile lacks capability of maneuvering before lock, aircraft itself must maneuver so that missile will be pointed to no more than 15 degrees bearing of the target for confident capture by the IR seeker after launch. Equalising altitude is recommended but not required. On combat operations section of the Su-27 manual, this mode of usage is especially recommended for head-on usage for passive attacks at targets with 0 degrees approach angle (i.e. another fighter moving to intercept), leaving target unalerted to incoming missile. Launch can be made at 0 to 7 g, but limited to 6 g if roll induced slip is more than 2x diameter of the ball."

 

I've tried to launch the R-27ET on this conditions with a friend flying straight to me, and the ET never lock him and flew dumb all the time!. Passing close to his canopy

 

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. ER is a SARH and has no onboard radar like the 77 or the 120. It only has a receiver that can use the fighter as a platform to guide it. Nice bash on ED though.

 

 

 

Technically, it's not long range, but medium range. It outperforms any of the other IR missiles existing in the game at range by a very long shot. The main strength of an ET is being silent. If you even only have to use your radar in TWS to support for the ET, it already defeated the purpose.

 

As far as not being able to lock aircraft X range away with IR seekers go, well it's a pretty tough deal, aircraft positioned head on mask their heat signature very well provided they aren't afterburning, and atmospheric environment also degrades the performance by a hell of a lot more than in any other radar based application.

 

There are lots of people disappointed everywhere, that ain't no proof.

 

My impression is that you're just venting here with no actual knowledge to back it up. Do some work out it's a better and more useful way of relieving the stress.

Edited November 28, 2014 by JunMcKill

[NineLine]

From Wiki:

 

Most likely the first issue right there ;)

[GGTharos]

It has been achieved in this game but there are some limitations IIRC. I don't remember what they all are. Generally, shooting the missile without a lock is very low-pk, but the real life reasons for this are simply not modeled (random heat sources). Maybe they have completely removed that capability, and that is ok ... because the probability of your missile locking the target you intend it to lock with such a launch are very low anyway.

 

However this type of launch is not described in the Su-27 manual, there is only a description of emergency jettison by way of launching the missile, because the rails its on do not have the ability to eject the missile. In this case the missile may be launched without cooling, so it won't be locking onto anything.

 

I've tried to launch the R-27ET on this conditions with a friend flying straight to me, and the ET never lock him and flew dumb all the time!. Passing close to his canopy

[JunMcKill]

I have a question and it's about the modeled SU-27 RWR (Beryoza), I have a Mig-21bis flying straight to me, radar turned on, the SU-27 RWR detects nothing, and the HUD shows the MIG-21 at 50kms away.

 

Why the SU-27 RWR only awakes to the MIG21 radar signal about 32kms away, in the very moment that the MIG-21 pilot receive the echo of my SU-27?

 

In fact EM pulse moves and bound in the other aircraft much before the signal can return to the sender, in the same way of active sonars in submarines.

Edited November 29, 2014 by JunMcKill

[GGTharos]

Yes you are correct, will report it. It's probably just a wrong number in the radar definition.

[JunMcKill]

Thanks!

 

 

 

Yes you are correct, will report it. It's probably just a wrong number in the radar definition.

[TAW_Blaze]

It is allowed to share target illumination with other aircraft.

 

Never heard of such capability, in comparison only the latest AMRAAM variants are capable of something similar, so unless anyone has proof to back this up it's probably fake.

[steve65]

;2243003']Some interesting posts in this thread....

 

Rage hit the nail on the head when it comes to people expectations when flying online!

 

There are a some other things many people, especially newer pilots to the sim do NOT take into consideration.

 

For a long time... you WILL suck!

 

Air to air combat is not something that can be taught or picked up quickly, well being good at it anyway!

Being good at BVR takes 100s of hours of practice. What many people do not grasp is that they are way...way down the SA ladder, they think they know what they are doing but in reality they do not, this is when people start getting frustrated.

 

The harsh truth is you are going to get smashed when you fly against better pilots, especially people who have been doing this for years and have been trained

 

 

 

 

 

 

Excellent response maverick and I totaly agree.now I don't play MP,never have just vs AI.hell I barley have time to fly at all with RL crap getting in the way and yes I suck even against AI because I don't have time to get the hours It takes to improve but I don't blame the game or missiles or whatever and yes I get pissed but only at myself,nothing else.players blaming everything else just isn't in this game either I see a lot of the same thing in RL.people need to take responsibility for their actions instead of playing the victim card and blaming everything else.like the old saying goes I can't control everyone else attitude only my own.

 

just my 2 cents

[PFunk]

Everything you guys are describing sounds more like a job than fun.

[TAW_Blaze]

Everything you guys are describing sounds more like a job than fun.

 

This isn't the first game I've played "competitively", it's a lot of work. But it's also a challenge and a lot of fun in the correct environment.

[*Rage*]

Everything you guys are describing sounds more like a job than fun.

 

Lol! Sometimes I think we get carried away and take ourselves a little too seriously:)

[FSKRipper]

Everything you guys are describing sounds more like a job than fun.

 

I think that's the reason why the guys doing the real stuff everyday get paid for it :megalol:

 

BTW: Maybe it's a bit ill but flying something with PFM and a clickable cockpit after work is real hard work. But some kind of work I love to do :thumbup:

[Weta43]

It's only the same idea as practicing for football, basketball, cricket, darts, paintball, CoD etc.

 

If you're just playing for the fun of it (maybe with some mates in private) or you don't mind getting your ar*e kicked every so often by someone that does practice on a public server, you don't need to practice.

 

If you want to win more than lose on public servers (or even in SP), you'll have to practice.

 

You can practice systematically - (metaphorical set piece drills & ball skills etc), or you can just play and learn as you play.

 

Being systematic is probably quicker - just depends how important winning is to you :)

[Jumbik]

Everything you guys are describing sounds more like a job than fun.

 

That all depends on what you enjoy. Even work can be a joyful ride in the skies. :D

 

I'm getting shot down a lot more often than I would like to, but flying is still a lot more enjoyable than anything else I can think of.

 

And after all being a combat pilot means you are doing one of the hardest works in the world.

[FLANKERATOR]

My opinion is that this game is not like other games, it will continuously improve, but it will never be perfect and it should not be perfect. Missiles among other things, need continuous tweaking, but even so, the performance of a missile is subject to way too many dynamic variables. Sometimes, it will fail for an unnoticed reason.

 

On a different note, looking at how competitive other games have become, I see no reason why, especially DCS, could not do the same, as it's setting the bar pretty high when it comes to player proficiency, let alone PvP requirements. I'd say that if there are a few games out there that are meant to be approached 'seriously', DCS is surely one of them.

 

At the end of the day, it will come down to personal taste: laid-back untroubled people or competitive performance-oriented sky warriors.

 

Let's face it, who wouldn't have fun instigating panic among his opponents.

One thing for sure, it will always be a lot easier to 'try' to not give a darn rather than taking the bull by its horns :smilewink:.