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[NO BUG / EVALUATING] 1.2.15 slight tendency to roll right


Eldur
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I've just noticed that the MiG-21 now has a slight tendency to roll right, even checked my controls and the Ctrl+Enter visualisation, my aileron and rudder controls are perfectly centered and my MiG rolls to the right... anyone else seeing this?


Edited by Cobra847

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I've just noticed that the MiG-21 now has a slight tendency to roll right, even checked my controls and the Ctrl+Enter visualisation, my aileron and rudder controls are perfectly centered and my MiG rolls to the right... anyone else seeing this?

 

Had that before as well. While it might be annoying with PC hardware, it might not be completely unrealistic though. Normally on control surfaces that you can't trim (in case of the MiG it would be the rudder and the ailerons) you have so called "Trim Tabs", which are just small metal plates that the ground crew adjusts too trim the respective control surface.

The ground crew has to relay on pilot reports and their experience to adjust the trim tabs to have 0 force on the control surfaces which is just impossible.

 

Looks like this: (Note: In this picture the rudder has such a "fixed" trim tab, while the elevator has a normal trim tab that can be moved during the flight with the trim.

 

Labeled_Cessna_172_trim_tab.jpg

 

However, if that effect is feature or a bug is hard to tell, but I am sure the devs will fix it if it is a bug.

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No trimtabs on Mig-21 :)

 

Okay, thanks for the information. Is there any other way that could compensate in a similar way too the trim tabs or was it just not necessary?

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I have this behaviour too.

 

I would assume this is not a bug, but gyroscopic reaction moment of the engine.

 

Wouldn't the reaction moment only apply when there were changes to engine speed?

 

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I have this behaviour too.

Wouldn't the reaction moment only apply when there were changes to engine speed?

 

The reaction moment would be there all the time, it's value would be rpm (or rather torque) dependend though. The higher the torque the higher the reaction moment. If the rpm increases, the reaction moment would spike during that rpm increase.

 

You turn the engine and the engine turns you.

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Okay, thanks for the information. Is there any other way that could compensate in a similar way too the trim tabs or was it just not necessary?

 

The whole controls move. At those speeds trim tabs would be useless. That's also why elevators are one moving piece.

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Haven't noticed different speeds of roll myself. Seems constant, like a case of bad joystick and it's been there since even before 1.2.15. It's impossible to pre-empt it because it's so sensitive that even the movement of joystick in near-center corrects it.

 

And AFAIK no other jet in DCS has this "feature". Honestly, I would just as well declare it a bug and hope LNS do away with it in future updates. Or "cheat" and give us normal options for left/right trim like in other planes, not just up/down.

 

I don't mind dealing with torque effects from engine in piston aircrafts (for which I rather play IL-2 Cliffs of Dover because in DCS I just don't have the feeling/feel I'm flying a piston plane), but definitely don't want them in jets.

 

There's realism and there's realism...

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And AFAIK no other jet in DCS has this "feature".

 

A constant slight roll to either side? The DCS MiG-15bis does this too, and I've seen documents stating the real jets did as well. It was caused by small manufacturing imperfections, and no-one thought it a big deal back then. C'mon man, just embrace the imprecision and enjoy your crate(s) :thumbup:

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C'mon man, just embrace the imprecision and enjoy your crate(s) :thumbup:

 

I would. If I could trim the bloody thing out!

 

Didn't know about the MiG-15 since I don't have it and haven't read/heard a complaint yet.

 

I admit I'm not the best of pilots, nor do I have the best stick, so the consequence of this feature is exacerbated in my case. I try to either fly in formation or lead and I either have to expend an inordinate amount of attention and patience or the whole things falls apart fast.

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Didn't know about the MiG-15 since I don't have it and haven't read/heard a complaint yet.

 

As it comes to the 15bis this indeed is how it behaves, but as regards the 21 I've no clue. What do the devs say?

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  • 2 weeks later...

You guys might want to try changing course 180 degrees and see if the roll direction reverses. If it does, then it's the effect of wind.

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  • 1 month later...

So i have been playing around with the Mig 21 and i can confirm it is most likely a bug, i get the roll to the right when in multiplayer but not in single player, i have checked if it was indeed wind but it was a constant right roll in all directions.

 

I don't mind it as much but it does become a problem when trying to land, i don't mind the extra challenge but i don't want to be at a disadvantage just because of a bug

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  • 2 weeks later...

This is cross-posted at http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=131191&page=3.

 

I can confirm with 100% certainty that the cause of the uncommanded rolls in 1.2.15 is the wind.

 

Very easily reproducible:

 

Create any mission with zero wind at all altitudes. Provided your HOTAS is properly calibrated, the aircraft is symmetrically loaded and you do not accidentally apply any rudder, the aircraft will fly straight.

 

Using the same mission, set wind e.g. to 180/50 (km/h), no turbulence. When flying headings 090° or 270°, the aircraft will roll away from the wind. When flying headings 180° or 360°, there will be no roll.

 

The effect is more pronounced the higher the wind speed you set, and the higher the crosswind component.

 

I have only tested this in MiG-21bis 1.2.15, not in any other aircraft or version of DCS.

 

Based on my understanding of aerodynamics, this behaviour is not entirely realistic. While it is a well-known technique to apply "aileron-into-the-wind" during take-offs to counter the phenomenon that the upwind wing will experience more lift, thereby causing the aircraft to roll away from the wind during lift-off, once entirely in the air, the aircraft is moving with the air mass surrounding it, and steady wind should have no effect on aircraft roll, while wind GUSTS will of course have a temporary effect.

 

See for example https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aircraft/airplane_handbook/media/faa-h-8083-3a-3of7.pdf, pp. 5-5 to 5-8.

 

I'm not an aerospace engineer, so there might be an aerodynamic effect I'm not aware of that would cause roll effects due to steady winds after all. I have simply never heard anyone complain about having to trim the aircraft to counter steady enroute winds in a real-world context, at least in modern fighters or passenger jets. If anyone can find something on this matter online I'd be very interested in seeing it.


Edited by Bestandskraft
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I can confirm with 100% certainty that the cause of the uncommanded rolls in 1.2.15 is the wind.

 

Create any mission with zero wind at all altitudes. Provided your HOTAS is properly calibrated, the aircraft is symmetrically loaded and you do not accidentally apply any rudder, the aircraft will fly straight.

 

And yet you're still wrong, your 100% certainty up or down. :P

 

My joystick is perfectly calibrated - it's also a joystick with HALL tech, the plane has NOTHING hanging from it at all, no rudder applied, same no matter what fuel status is, there is NO wind and yet the plane still WON'T fly straight.

 

Also, the roll is only to the RIGHT, never to the left, no matter what direction I turn - again something that defeats the wind theory.

 

The only solution I have found is to press A and then click the red button on stick to disengage (or your key assignment). Easily circumvented issue, but still a present issue with the game, not the joystick or wind. :)

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You are right, let me rephrase:

 

When flying DCS MiG-21Bis 1.2.15 (DCS World 1.2.16) on my computer, I experience reproducible uncommanded rolls caused by wind as described above. In zero-wind conditions, I do not experience any uncommanded/unexplained rolls.

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Could anyone of the "roll plagued" post a track?

 

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Just found out that with the exact same weather settings (i.e. zero wind) and loadout, I get an uncommanded roll in certain missions, but not in others.

 

I suspect missions created in older versions of the game are subject to this behavior. I created a new mission from scratch, and in that mission I do NOT have uncommanded rolls with zero wind.

 

I have posted two tracks of that mission below.

 

The "No wind" track has no wind, the "Wind" track has wind set to 30 km/h at all altitudes, direction 0°.

 

You will see that in the "Wind" track, the aircraft will roll away from the wind, but will not roll when flying exactly into or away from the wind.

Wind.trk

No wind.trk

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Confirmed! I do notice that, too. It occurs when flying in MANUAL mode or in STABILIZATION mode. It does not happen, when Autopilot is in RECOVERY mode, though. Aircraft listing due to wind effect could be intended and normal but this behavior was not there before and feels a little strange. So, a quick clarification from LN would be appreciated...

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