Valve/HTC Vive Discussion

[hansangb]

Take it to PM, please. We all thank you.

[grammaton_feather]

You obviously forgotten what Oculus is championing, since you've stuck your head up the Vive cloud. I'll try to remind you, Oculus is championing VR by providing quality hardware near cost, and are creating/funding/supporting the software required, long before Vive mentioned they were bringing VR hardware to the market. It still remains to be seen how that software can and will be implemented between hardware devices, or what hardware devises will actually be around when the dust settles.

 

Your suggesting that Valve knew everything about VR before Oculus, and it could also be suggested that they didn't get it right until they started working with Oculus. :) You do realise that Abrash now works for Oculus, and Valve tied its wagon to a struggling hardware company?

 

 

Palmer used to tinker in his parent's garage with VR so it had nothing to do with Valve getting there first. Palmer made consumer VR a thing. Good observations you make here. Agree.

 

By the way... I had to give up getting DCS world to run smoothly with my Oculus DK2. DCS is just too badly optimised.

[grammaton_feather]

DIGITAL COMBAT SIMULATOR WORLD GETS HTC VIVE SUPPORT

 

http://vrfocus.com/archives/25463/digital-combat-simulator-world-gets-htc-vive-support/

 

That's hilarious given the sim doesn't work properly with Oculus.

[Brisse]

That's hilarious given the sim doesn't work properly with Oculus.

 

The Vive support isn't even public yet, and probably just in the very early stages, so I don't see why it's hilarious. When the Oculus is released I expect it to work properly in DCS. Right now, everything is just experimental work in progress.

[Chivas]

Was it you that was bumbling on about people taking things personally?

 

Allow me to retort.

 

 

 

Abrash works for Oculus - OH REALLY?! Thanks for the enlightenment, it was completely my point.

You keep throwing my points back at me, like you're informing me of something, when it's clear you simply didn't understand what I was saying. Which I don't quite understand, everyone else seems to get them. Unless...

 

I've come to realise that you are intentionally obtuse (Google it, I'll wait).

 

Valve didn't know everything there was to know, but I bet they regret the Oculus experiment now. If they were such über friends, they'd still be in business now, wouldn't they.

 

Also your is possessive, you're is a contraction. Know the difference.

 

 

You know when someone has lost an argument when they use the spelling/grammar retort. :)

[Quantenpresbyterianer]

PM please, as already mentioned before.

[vicx]

I think Oculus will be the most affordable solution and I think it will be the most convenient and the easiest to use package. It's going to make most people happy.

 

BUT I don't necessarily want the cheapest or most convenient or easiest to use HMD cause I want other things more. What I want is the most feature rich HMD that gives me the most options and lots of ways to customise the way I use it and has people hacking on it to make it do crazy s_.

 

I just get the feeling that Vive is gonna be a little more geeky - at least I hope that ends up being the case. The guy who designed the Lighthouse tech gave a talk earlier this year and I thought ... this is even cooler than the HMD part. I'll make my own tracking parts when they release schematics or just wait a week and order chinese dongles on ebay. I'm going to find that side of things a lot of fun.

 

If they were selling the Vive dev kit I'd probably already have one to go with my DK2. See that's the thing ... because I have a DK2 the thought of getting a CV1 Rift is not as exciting. I know I'd be getting something a lot more polished ... but I wouldn't be getting anything really new.

 

YMMV ... but that's my take.

[TomOnSteam]

watching that video really just emphasizes how badly they need to have controllers that are like gloves, knuckle dusters, or predator style wrist braces. Something that you don't need to hold, yet something that has an optical sensor that can tell if your fingers are moving.

[Revelation]

watching that video really just emphasizes how badly they need to have controllers that are like gloves, knuckle dusters, or predator style wrist braces. Something that you don't need to hold, yet something that has an optical sensor that can tell if your fingers are moving.

 

Ask and ye shall receive...

 

http://www.roadtovr.com/2-vr-gloves-promising-haptic-feedback-2-different-approaches/

[S3NTRY11]

Ask and ye shall receive...

 

http://www.roadtovr.com/2-vr-gloves-promising-haptic-feedback-2-different-approaches/

I'd buy-in without a second thought if lighthouse was guaranteed.

[vicx]

they need to have controllers that are like gloves, knuckle dusters, or predator style wrist braces. Something that you don't need to hold, yet something that has an optical sensor that can tell if your fingers are moving.

 

Oh it's going to happen ... it's not an area a HMD maker wants to commit to but 3rd parties are going to go crazy with this. You will have lots to choose from.

 

Feedback on the glove link. I have seen a proper force feedback gloves with servos that look pretty awesome and at the other end low commitment devices like finger tip thimbles and rings might also work. There won't just be gloves.

 

There will be a full range of devices with varying capabilities and ways to interoperate with the HMD tracking systems.

[vicx]

Does anyone want to work on a combined texture and visibility MOD that is specially

 

Does anyone want to collaborate on a combined texture and visibility MOD that is specially for VR use.

 

Playing with VR is hard on the system so there are lot of things we could detune to get some performance headroom back. At the same time, in VR some visual effects look great in VR and some look bad.

 

In a MOD we could boost up good effects and reduce the bad looking effects.

 

Example:

• Distant textures do not render in VR at all (Wide FOV and No zoom) ... it would be best to have very distinct and flatter textures at a distance and only use detail textures up close.
  
• Same goes for rendering of objects. You want the geometrical objects to show up futher away but the textures for those objects are not as important.
  
• Stuff like the ugly town surface textures can be removed as can the
  

 

Has anyone already down some work in this area. Does anyone have some feedback on testing they have done.

 

Is there any particular texture pack MOD that makes things look better in VR?

[JLX]

Does anyone want to collaborate on a combined texture and visibility MOD that is specially for VR use.

 

Playing with VR is hard on the system so there are lot of things we could detune to get some performance headroom back. At the same time, in VR some visual effects look great in VR and some look bad.

 

In a MOD we could boost up good effects and reduce the bad looking effects.

 

Example:

• Distant textures do not render in VR at all (Wide FOV and No zoom) ... it would be best to have very distinct and flatter textures at a distance and only use detail textures up close.
  
• Same goes for rendering of objects. You want the geometrical objects to show up futher away but the textures for those objects are not as important.
  
• Stuff like the ugly town surface textures can be removed as can the
  

 

Has anyone already down some work in this area. Does anyone have some feedback on testing they have done.

 

Is there any particular texture pack MOD that makes things look better in VR?

I don't have anything to contribute to such an effort but this is a really good idea!

 

I wonder if ED is planning (or could be persuaded) to support this. If any ED are able to comment, that would be great.

 

Regardless, great initiative vicx! We're going to need to squeak every last bit of juice out of our systems for VR.

 

Good luck with the project. I'll be watching closely. Perhaps someone like Bartek could help with the textures?

[grammaton_feather]

The Vive support isn't even public yet, and probably just in the very early stages, so I don't see why it's hilarious. When the Oculus is released I expect it to work properly in DCS. Right now, everything is just experimental work in progress.

 

Oculus has been released for more than a year and DK2 has a pretty good range of supported games and demos now.

 

I realise it's a developer targeted device but nevertheless there's a lot of content out there for it.

 

I think DCS just isn't optimised enough for VR and I don't think that will change very soon when CV1 arrives.

 

DK2 period was the time when developers should have been learning and refining their products rather than simply waiting for CV1 stage.

[Chivas]

So, you don't need a 15 x 15 room for Vive. Yay! Smaller spaces are fine.

 

"Arguably the defining feature of the HTC Vive virtual reality (VR) head-mounted display (HMD) is its Room Scale user-tracking, provided by Valve’s SteamVR system and its Lighthouse laser-based solution. The concept works by tracking a user’s movements in an area of up to 15-feet by 15-feet and having those movements then replicated within the given experience. But those with limited space shouldn’t worry about having room to use the HMD; HTC is well aware that many people will be using smaller spaces."

 

http://vrfocus.com/archives/25592/htc-people-will-use-a-smaller-space-for-vives-room-scale-tracking/

 

Yes, this has been a perceptual problem for Vive for sometime. I recently watched a Vive presentation where the rep repeatedly had to emphasize that it wasn't just a moving/standing experience but a sitting experience as well. Oculus has had the same, but opposite problem, if you know what I mean.

[Chivas]

watching that video really just emphasizes how badly they need to have controllers that are like gloves, knuckle dusters, or predator style wrist braces. Something that you don't need to hold, yet something that has an optical sensor that can tell if your fingers are moving.

 

 

If the input controllers are accurate enough to be used as stick and throttle controllers, then I can see people modding inputs like the Oculus touch. The Oculus touch inputs should work well for in cockpit switch adjustment, as they have some finger dexterity attributes.

 

I'd envision some sort of quick connect/disconnect docking stations in the stick and throttle positions, where you could use the inputs to adjust cockpit switches as well as stick and throttle use. It doesn't matter what the inputs look like as we can't see them anyway while in VR, and they should feel ok, since they're pistol type grips.

[Johnny Dioxin]

For some of us, an Oculus Touch type thyngamajig would be bad news when we get an attack of the arthritic wobblies!

 

Shake the plane to bits... :joystick:

[Chivas]

I think Oculus will be the most affordable solution and I think it will be the most convenient and the easiest to use package. It's going to make most people happy.

 

BUT I don't necessarily want the cheapest or most convenient or easiest to use HMD cause I want other things more. What I want is the most feature rich HMD that gives me the most options and lots of ways to customise the way I use it and has people hacking on it to make it do crazy s_.

 

I just get the feeling that Vive is gonna be a little more geeky - at least I hope that ends up being the case. The guy who designed the Lighthouse tech gave a talk earlier this year and I thought ... this is even cooler than the HMD part. I'll make my own tracking parts when they release schematics or just wait a week and order chinese dongles on ebay. I'm going to find that side of things a lot of fun.

 

If they were selling the Vive dev kit I'd probably already have one to go with my DK2. See that's the thing ... because I have a DK2 the thought of getting a CV1 Rift is not as exciting. I know I'd be getting something a lot more polished ... but I wouldn't be getting anything really new.

 

YMMV ... but that's my take.

 

The Vive could well be the most Geek friendly option. Personally I think your totally off base thinking that the CV1 will just be a polished DK2. The DK2 is even old in the VR prototype evolution, never mind consumer versions. We still don't know the final specs of the Vive or Rift, but the wait shouldn't be much longer.

[S3NTRY11]

It doesn't matter what the inputs look like as we can't see them anyway while in VR, and they should feel ok, since they're pistol type grips.

 

If they can be tracked, they can, and should, be seen in VR (with a translucency effect or the like when not in active use).

[S3NTRY11]

Oculus has been released for more than a year and DK2 has a pretty good range of supported games and demos now.

 

I realise it's a developer targeted device but nevertheless there's a lot of content out there for it.

 

I think DCS just isn't optimised enough for VR and I don't think that will change very soon when CV1 arrives.

 

DK2 period was the time when developers should have been learning and refining their products rather than simply waiting for CV1 stage.

I have to crank all my details quite low, and even then, still dip below 75FPS which hurts.

 

Having said that, my CPU is old, and my video cards aren't great (crossfire doesn't seem to work for me). It will be interesting to see how optimised Nevada is - that will be a truer test than the current map, I'd say.

 

I think to get the most out of VR (especially in DCS), anyone that wants in is going to have to upgrade their gear, if they're not running current mid-high range.

[Chivas]

If they can be tracked, they can, and should, be seen in VR (with a translucency effect or the like when not in active use).

 

Of course they can be seen, but they could be take any form the devs can imagine. In the demos I've seen Oculus represents the Touch inputs as hands, which would work well in flight sims. Hands resting on the stick/throttle simulated for that particular aircraft, and hands moving around to adjust cockpit switches. I've chosen the Oculus Touch inputs for now as their current prototype has some finger dexterity that can also be tracked.

[S3NTRY11]

It doesn't matter what the inputs look like as we can't see them anyway while in VR

Of course they can be seen

Which is it?...

In the demos I've seen Oculus represents the Touch inputs as hands, which would work well in flight sims. Hands resting on the stick/throttle simulated for that particular aircraft, and hands moving around to adjust cockpit switches.

I think that sounds better than the reality would be, if you need to drop the input devices, say to go back to your stick; having them reflect their true form would make it more intuitive, at the loss of some immersion. Practicality will win here.

I've chosen the Oculus Touch inputs for now as their current prototype has some finger dexterity that can also be tracked.

The current Touch prototypes are certainly much better input devices than the Vive wands. The integration of finger tracking is a huge advantage.

The magic wands will be lame for sims. They are just a mediocre universal solution until something better comes along. Gloves all the way for sims.

I think they'll be fine. I thought the same way for a long time, but I don't know, after wags mentioned their integration, I thought about it a little more, and came to thinking that the practicality will outweigh the lameness.

I agree, gloves for the win though, or Touch-style dexterity as an in-between.

[Chivas]

Which is it?...

 

I think that sounds better than the reality would be, if you need to drop the input devices, say to go back to your stick; having them reflect their true form would make it more intuitive, at the loss of some immersion. Practicality will win here.

 

The current Touch prototypes are certainly much better input devices than the Vive wands. The integration of finger tracking is a huge advantage.

 

I think they'll be fine. I thought the same way for a long time, but I don't know, after wags mentioned their integration, I thought about it a little more, and came to thinking that the practicality will outweigh the lameness.

I agree, gloves for the win though, or Touch-style dexterity as an in-between.

 

I thought it was obvious. You can't see the "INPUTS", keyboard, anything while in VR, so it doesn't matter if the inputs look like wands, or touch, or anything else.

 

I don't think you quite understand. The Touch inputs are your stick, throttle, and clickable cockpit input. You don't drop the inputs and find your stick and throttle, you put the Touch units back in their modded docking station that returns them to throttle/Stick mode. When you remove one or the other from their docking station it goes into cockpit toggle mode, until you return it to its docking station.

 

The throttle docking station would be similar to an aircraft throttle, with moveable leaver, with a horizontal docking station for the Touch input, which no becomes the throttle handle. The Stick docking station would have a universal vertical docking station. The docking stations just provides the resistance and appropriately allowed direction of movement.

 

Just thinking out loud here, and currently prefer programming cockpit inputs to my Hotas system. The mod probably wouldn't be doable without considerable work being done in the games input code anyway. I know DCS is looking at the integrating the VR inputs, but not sure if that's just the Vive Wands, or even what assignments they are considering. I don't much care for the idea of letting go of a stick or throttle, finding the Wand/Touch and then clicking the appropriate switch. Thus the docking station idea.

[hansangb]

In Rift (should be no different in Vive), looking at the control and clicking on the mouse (or HOTAS key reprogrammed, I guess) is pretty intuitive. So long as the cockpit is clickable, it's quite doable.

 

I think the only device that has a chance of doing input properly is Microsoft's HoloLens. Or MagicLeap if they ever come out with a product (LOL). I think the idea of using a wand is too intrusive for a flight sim.

 

hsb

[S3NTRY11]

The Touch inputs are your stick, throttle, and clickable cockpit input. You don't drop the inputs and find your stick and throttle, you put the Touch units back in their modded docking station that returns them to throttle/Stick mode. When you remove one or the other from their docking station it goes into cockpit toggle mode, until you return it to its docking station.

 

The throttle docking station would be similar to an aircraft throttle, with moveable leaver, with a horizontal docking station for the Touch input, which no becomes the throttle handle. The Stick docking station would have a universal vertical docking station. The docking stations just provides the resistance and appropriately allowed direction of movement.

 

I don't see that taking off, no pun intended.

I don't much care for the idea of letting go of a stick or throttle, finding the Wand/Touch and then clicking the appropriate switch.

 

I think the idea of using a wand is too intrusive for a flight sim.

I was thinking that the wand idea was a bad one too, until I realised that I use the mouse without much trouble with the DK2, and there isn't even a representation of that in the sim; I'm using it blind, which I doubt will be the case with Vive wands/Touch. And having a representation in-game, along with intuitive "switchology", should be highly intuitive.