How to learn to dogfight

[DirtyFret]

I am new to the Dora but I instantly fell in love with this beauty. After a rough start, I have obtained the skills to takeoff with her with success consistently. However currently I am severely frustrated with learning the dogfighting aspect. :helpsmilie: My frustration level is starting to reach the dreaded "I-am-not-gonna-play-with-you-anymore" - level. :cry:

 

I have studied and read theories and watched Youtube videos. :book: I know the basics of turn fighting, energy fighting, Boom'n'Zoom, merging and gunnery but I cannot for the life of me put this into actual use. What I mean by this is that I am basically stuck in a forever-loop doing the training, shooting down drones and then taking on a P-51D (AI set to average) on mission I created and failing each and every time. Don't even get me started on how I fared on the instant action "Dogfight" mission.

 

I lose immediately sight of the baddie and even with all the odds stacked against the AI ,(=energy disadvantage , 6'o clock starting position for me) in the mission I create, it manages to defeat me.:cry: It counters my every move, it turns at exactly the right time to get outside my performance envelope, it breaks off every time I almost get it to overshoot me on the scissors and so on.... the only thing that seems to be average on this AI are the gunnery skills.:P

 

I know repetition and training is the key to all things but I am looking/asking for any advice on how you learned to dogfight. Pure mindless repetition? Did you practice with drones? Specific mission? MP servers? Campaign? Did you use labels at first or the F5 "cheat" view?

 

Kind regards and thanks in advance on any tips and advice

 

TL;DR

- I am bad at dogfighting and training/repetition is not helping

- Tips/advice on how to learn dogfighting

 

Fred

 

P.S. My setup:TM Hotas Warthog stick + throttle + MFG crosswind rudders+ Track IR and 21:9 ratio widescreen monitor. FPS 45-60 consistently.

[PiedDroit]

Keeping sight is the most important, you shouldn't maneuver in a way that makes you lose sight or unable to reliably predict the next position of the bandit.

Try disabling MSAA it might help also.

I suggest you post a track to be commented.

[WildBillKelsoe]

remember there is a hot side lag and cold side lag. for best experience, you need to train in multiplayer with able-bodied humans. for sighting issues, its not a cheat to use labels or F5 key.

 

start by removing AI ammo, set his task to search and engage (you) and disable RTB on winchester.

 

The other way you can also learn is by enabling invincible in options both mission and options menu, that way you can get hit by AI but still fly and learn from mistakes.

 

 

Practice is the key. I remember when I first started on the mustang (2012), I was frustrated at taking off, then now I can 3 point with ease, then I developed motor skills (trust me it takes time for muscle to memorize the corner speed and sustained turn pull versus instantaneous turn, haphazard pull).

 

and one last thing, practice on defensive maneuvers first. that way you develop your skill to defend, and from there move on to offensive BFM.

 

 

 

Based on your OP, you are familiar with Shaw's Bible?

[PhoenixBvo]

• visibility is a big problem: In general and especially with DCS right now. Like it was said before, try turning off AA in both the DCS settings and your graphics card helps to better see edges of the bandit's aircraft.
  Apart from that, try setting up labels to only show a dot as a training measure:
  

  You can modify the file like so:
   
  To change the labels in game you need to modify the labels.lua found in the Config/view folder
   
  You can use most characters found on your keyboard if you want custom type stuff, some used the "*" for ground targets and the "|" for weapons... use the "~" for air targets. I just used the * for everything. It is unobtrusive, looks like a small dot and pretty much disappears when you get close. If you use labels, this is a good alternative.
   
  AirFormat = {}
  AirFormat[10] = "*"
  AirFormat[5000] = "*"
  AirFormat[10000] = "*"
  AirFormat[20000] = "*"
  AirFormat[30000] = "*"
   
  GroundFormat = {}
  GroundFormat[5000] = "*"
  GroundFormat[10000] = "*"
  GroundFormat[20000] = "*"
   
  NavyFormat = {}
  NavyFormat[10000] = "*"
  NavyFormat[20000] = "*"
  NavyFormat[40000] = "*"
   
  WeaponFormat = {}
  WeaponFormat[5000] = "*"
  WeaponFormat[10000] = "*"
  WeaponFormat[20000] = "*"

• You already watched Youtube vids, but still I found this particular one by Iron Jockel very helpful for the Fw-190 vs P-51D:
  
  
  In particular he notes: "The Dora can't outturn a P51 but outroll it." Also note the way he keeps track of the bandit and clearly has a mental picture of his motion with respect to his own maneuvering. That together with excellent gunnery skills makes this particular pilot outstanding!
  
• My own experience with the Dora vs AI is that you can consistently win if you fly rolling scissors with him. Try to keep your load vector pointed at the bandit: that is roll smoothly to keep him along the center canopy rim and pull just as much as the aircraft can sustain. You want to conserve energy. As soon as the AI pulls up into the vertical you can easily shoot him down, but be careful on the throttle not to overshoot him.
  

[DirtyFret]

remember there is a hot side lag and cold side lag.

 

I am not familiar with these terms. I'll do some research on them

 

The other way you can also learn is by enabling invincible in options both mission and options menu, that way you can get hit by AI but still fly and learn from mistakes.

 

This was very helpful and reduced stress and frustration greatly. I'll try to get rid of these assists as I get better.

 

practice on defensive maneuvers first. that way you develop your skill to defend, and from there move on to offensive BFM. ...Based on your OP, you are familiar with Shaw's Bible?

 

Thanks - I'll begin with those and no, I am not familiar with "Shaw's Bible" I would like to read it if it concerns the subject matter :pilotfly:

 

Keeping sight is the most important, you shouldn't maneuver in a way that makes you lose sight or unable to reliably predict the next position of the bandit.

 

I activated labels for now to help with keeping track on the bandit. Thanks for the advice and tips guys.

[airdoc]

Dogfighting is a constant game of trying to maintain and exploit your advantages over the enemy's attempts to rob you of them.

 

The keyword is constant. If you lose sight, then you are in trouble. "Lose sight, lose the fight".

 

As suggested, practicing with labels on will help you a lot until you get better.

 

If you are new to flight sims in general, then don't feel disheartened by all this. It takes a lot of time to be able to implement the theoretical knowledge of energy management and maneuvering into meaningful dogfight outcomes. What now seems frustrating to you, will become second nature and come effortlessly as you become better. You will inherently know which move to perform in most scenarios, when to engage, when to wait, and when to disengage.

 

Practicing online and even joining a squadron will help you the most. Practice is the the key.

[DirtyFret]

• visibility is a big problem: In general and especially with DCS right now. Like it was said before, try turning off AA in both the DCS settings and your graphics card helps to better see edges of the bandit's aircraft.
  Apart from that, try setting up labels to only show a dot as a training measure:

 
Thank you , I'll try the dot label instead. The vanilla version is a bit too intrusive imo.

You already watched Youtube vids, but still I found this particular one by Iron Jockel very helpful for the Fw-190 vs P-51D:

In particular he notes: "The Dora can't outturn a P51 but outroll it." Also note the way he keeps track of the bandit and clearly has a mental picture of his motion with respect to his own maneuvering. That together with excellent gunnery skills makes this particular pilot outstanding!
My own experience with the Dora vs AI is that you can consistently win if you fly rolling scissors with him. Try to keep your load vector pointed at the bandit: that is roll smoothly to keep him along the center canopy rim and pull just as much as the aircraft can sustain. You want to conserve energy. As soon as the AI pulls up into the vertical you can easily shoot him down, but be careful on the throttle not to overshoot him.

 

I have seen that video and that is one of the best vids/piloting that I have seen so far. Thanks for the tips on the scissor execution. :thumbup:

 

I also noticed that my TrackIR settings were on far too sensitive and that caused me to disorient very quickly as the slightest head movement messed my POV and FOV totally. Just FYI for other green pilots...

[Solty]

Except keeping the sight on the enemy, you have to know your enemy in relation to you. What is he capable of and what I am capable of.

 

In DCS, Dora vs Mustang fight:

-The Dora is:

Better accelerating,

Better climbing,

Better armed,

Better rolling at low-medium speeds

Faster

 

-The P-51 is:

Better rolling at high speeds

Better turning

Has longer ToT

 

Now... it is easier to use those advantages over human as he is not always capable of telling your exact location. AI cheats by knowing where you are all the time.

 

B&Z (even though it is very hard for now) is your best bet against human oponent.

 

AI has a pattern. Just go for lag pursuit with him and when he goes vertical pull lead on him and destroy it with one good burst.

[DirtyFret]

Very helpful stuff people. Thank you. In less than a day I scored my first kill (against a fighter) with these advises and instructions. For bonus I manage an astonishingly smooth landing .

 

Attached a trk from the fight. about 7-8 minutes in I begin the successful scissors and as PhoenixBvo predicted, and AI had many times before done so, it breaks off and goes for vertical separation rather than overshoot. Subsequently as Solty explained, the Dora and I won the climbing game with a lucky burst.:D

 

*Bows to the community* :pilotfly:

 

P.S. Landing at about 12-14mins.

Firstkill.trk

[DieHard]

Keeping sight is the most important, you shouldn't maneuver in a way that makes you lose sight or unable to reliably predict the next position of the bandit.

Try disabling MSAA it might help also.

I suggest you post a track to be commented.

 

Don't ever lose sight of your opponent. If I do, I high tail it for separation and come back into the fight later, rinse and repeat. Phooey with all those crazy book learning maneuvers. Keep enemy in sight, try to get behind him and close, 100 yards does nicely. Don't waste ammo. Wait for a good shot.

 

Why I like the Dora is its boost feature for separation. I do not get too involved in turn fighting with it. Lose speed and die!

 

Don't get stupid, always be looking around, behind, and below. Don't be flying predictable. My favorite dirty trick is sneaking behind a guy, below him.

 

Don't get suckered in to rope-a-dope where your opponent is above you forcing you to climb to him and lose speed.

 

DoW guys like to bait you with a supposedly slower guy while his wingman is above him waiting to bounce you.

 

Best place to learn is the flight sim / game Aces High because you have plane icons 6 K out and lots of opponents to practice with.

 

Furballs I do not like. I like one-on-one.

 

I play with real people about 98% of the time. The DCS servers do not use labels on.

Edited March 25, 2015 by DieHard

[Bucic]

If you do know the basics but you're stuck, you should have someone reviewing your dogfights. Visually, not on chat. Tacview is also helpful.

 

I'd also take a step back and have your basic skills confirmed as well. The knowledge on spin, stall, maneuvering and highlights of performance of your aircraft of choice (characteristic speeds, vices and virtues). You might be missing a detail that holds you back.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Bucic

[IronJockel]

• That together with excellent gunnery skills makes this particular pilot outstanding!
  

 

Thank you :)

 

 

E

 

-The P-51 is:

Better rolling at high speeds

Better turning

 

The Pony breaks it's wings easier at high speed rolling. I would not recomend to try to roll with a Dora at any speed. Saw lots of Mustangs crash because of it (including myself).

Better Turning is true for most speeds but at high speed to dora can keep up with a P51. However turning with a Dora always comes with a risk of bleeding to much energy, so always beware.

[Solty]

Thank you :)

 

 

 

 

The Pony breaks it's wings easier at high speed rolling. I would not recomend to try to roll with a Dora at any speed. Saw lots of Mustangs crash because of it (including myself).

Better Turning is true for most speeds but at high speed to dora can keep up with a P51. However turning with a Dora always comes with a risk of bleeding to much energy, so always beware.

Rollin breaks wings?:huh: Thats a new one. I have never broke a wing during a roll.

 

Also, we have to go deeper with turning. What I mean by turning is sustained turn. The sustained turn means the best turn which ultimately leads to getting behind the oponent just by turning itself after 1, 2 or even 3 or 4 circles. Which P-51D has an edge at, over the 190. It is turning at lower speeds (because with turning you loose speed duh).

 

What you are refering to is an instantaneous turn. It is the first turn that you make during the fight especially at higher speeds.

 

Can Dora turn with P-51? I say no. Can it pull lead on a P-51? Yes, but the time is limited. It is the same with P-51vs109. The 109 is a better turner, but the P-51 can pull a lead on it.

 

If you add YoYo into equasion, you will have even more even "turn" fight. But I do not count additional maneuvers as "better turn".

:pilotfly:

Edited March 30, 2015 by Solty

[IronJockel]

Rollin breaks wings?:huh: Thats a new one. I have never broke a wing during a roll.

 

Lots of p51 trying to hit me during high speed barrel rols broke their wings. it could be because of pitch but since go very light on it i doubt it.

 

Well yeah the turning discussion never ends. Following a flat turn of a better turning plane is never a smart move anyway.

[OutOnTheOP]

Lots of p51 trying to hit me during high speed barrel rols broke their wings. it could be because of pitch but since go very light on it i doubt it.

 

Well yeah the turning discussion never ends. Following a flat turn of a better turning plane is never a smart move anyway.

 

Generally agree, with the caveat that (from what I've seen so far) the Mustang CAN turn with the 109 in many circumstances: that is to say that the 109 bleeds a LOT of energy in hard turns, resulting in a slow, sharp turn that the Mustang cannot follow in clean configuration. However, with one notch of flaps, the Mustang will hold that turn (and even pull lead).

 

The problem is that doing so requires the Mustang to ALSO hold very high engine settings, and slow speed+ high power setting= roasted engine. You can really only use the flaps trick to stay with a 109 for 15-20 seconds, so you should reserve it for that "I just need to pull a BIT more lead to get the shot" moments. If dropping flaps won't give you an immediate shot, I'd avoid it; the 109 will recover the lost energy more easily than the Mustang will.

[Nooch]

What helps me a lot is turning off head movements when I fight. If I don't do so, the pilot's head will be very off from the gunsight and I swear it makes a big difference. Also, only turn in the same plane as your opponent if you know you are about to put the aiming cross right on him and squeeze the trigger. Most of the time you want to be doing yo-yo or split-s type of maneuver. Also, feel free to use rudder inputs to make tighter turns.

 

Here, I just recorded a track where I quickly get rid of two A.I fw-190. I think it shows well how to manage your speed and energy but it's not perfect though so any critics are welcome! :D

p-51 vs 2xfw-190 (a.i set to excellent).trk

Edited April 1, 2015 by Nooch

[dooom]

I am new to the Dora but I instantly fell in love with this beauty. After a rough start, I have obtained the skills to takeoff with her with success consistently. However currently I am severely frustrated with learning the dogfighting aspect. :helpsmilie: My frustration level is starting to reach the dreaded "I-am-not-gonna-play-with-you-anymore" - level. :cry:

 

Come hop on TS3 and fly with us Dirty! We will be happy to help. it certianly takes a while to get comfortable with DCS dogfighting but if you fly with others, you will always have a second and third set of eyes helping you not lose the bandit.

 

Fly online - it will help you bridge to the kill and have fun doing it.

[ctguy1955]

Great Info !!! I have really bad eyesight and really have a very hard time keeping

another plane in sight... Also it seems every time I join a MP session, Im always

alone and never as a wingman. Many times I never even see an enemy.

 

I finally got to the point where I can take off in the dora fairly well and that

was a very happy time, Landings are getting better, but most of the time

it seems like I get one wheel that wont go up after I T/O and I wonder why

that is ????

 

Im so glad to have a place like this to discuss my favourite PC flight Sim !!!

 

 

I was a little hot last night, so it was really great for a mustang to

provide me with a little air conditioning for my flight home.

[IronJockel]

I finally got to the point where I can take off in the dora fairly well and that

was a very happy time, Landings are getting better, but most of the time

it seems like I get one wheel that wont go up after I T/O and I wonder why

that is ????

 

 

Sounds to me like you're breaking you gear while touche down.

Check your landing gear lights. If one of em is off the gear is broken.

[westr]

So far I haven't seen anybody else mention this. But I have recently spent some time on the Dora and I'm slowly refining my dogfighting with her. I am managing to successfully take down an A.I P-51 set to high skill level and am also successful in a 2 v 2 situation getting both kills with one set to average and one set to high. Generally I can do this every time. The difference for me, and it is a difference because I used to really suck with the Dora. Is applying some flaps in a turn and when trying to keep with the mustang when she goes high. I am finding it works. There may be some pureists out there that say that you should not use flaps in combat with the Dora, and I have been scouring the net to see if there are any references to pilots that did. So far I can't find this out. I bind my flaps takeoff position to my warthog. Because landing position flaps is too much, too much energy loss. And I'm having sucess with it. That said like has been mentioned before you will not out turn a mustang but if you fly the Dora right on the edge you can get pretty close (turning wise) and as long as you keep your energy up when he dives dive with him at full throttle and get some speed up I'm getting success and tend to get him as he climbs and uses up his energy. I also put flaps in if im diving or flying straight and pop them out again before a Manoeuvre. Also I find if you are to hard with your stick input pull too hard your screwed she really doesn't like it. You have to be quite gentle.

I also think the flight model feels a bit nicer and more effective since 1.5 maybe that's just me.

Dora is not an easy aeroplane to fly in combat, and in my opinion the mustang and the 109 are probably more effective in the dogfight but I find her very stable and very satisfying when you get success. I also find the gunsight on the Dora extremely accurate.

[jester_]

If you're turn fighting in a German aircraft then you should biomass yourself in real life.

 

Your kills should come from your superior maneuvering, superior climbing, and superior speed. He pulls a hard turn, you go vertical and come back down on him. He tries to run, you dip your nose down and come back underneath him.

 

There are circumstances where you have to follow the turn but it should never, ever, ever be your main plan.

[westr]

If you're turn fighting in a German aircraft then you should biomass yourself in real life.

 

Your kills should come from your superior maneuvering, superior climbing, and superior speed. He pulls a hard turn, you go vertical and come back down on him. He tries to run, you dip your nose down and come back underneath him.

 

There are circumstances where you have to follow the turn but it should never, ever, ever be your main plan.

 

That was the point I was making I can't outturn a mustang in a 190 in a level turn so inevitably the fight ends up going high and low. But you can also turn whilst diving or climbing.

[Crumpp]

You have the same or even a little better Rate of Turn. That Rate of Turn occurs at a faster airspeed than the Mustang.

 

That means if you try to match the slower speed of the Mustang...

 

He will out-turn you.

[Bucic]

You have the same or even a little better Rate of Turn. That Rate of Turn occurs at a faster airspeed than the Mustang.

 

That means if you try to match the slower speed of the Mustang...

 

He will out-turn you.

This brings us to the subject of performance data. Once your cosy dogfighting lessons over your home airfield end performance data are of crucial importance. Unfortunately these are hard to find, especially the sets presenting comparison data of most common adversaries.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Bucic

[Echo38]

You have the same or even a little better Rate of Turn. That Rate of Turn occurs at a faster airspeed than the Mustang.

 

Unless I'm grossly mistaken: when comparing sustained turns, if FW 190 has the same rate of turn as P-51, but only when FW 190 is turning at a higher airspeed than P-51, then P-51 has a smaller turning circle, netting an advantage.

 

Having a hard time with this, though. Is it even possible for two aircraft to have the same sustained turn time, but one have a higher best sustained turn speed (and thus wider turning circle)? How does this work? The latter has less lift, but also less drag and/or mass, and/or more power?

 

Secondly, if my first sentence in this post is accurate, how would the P-51 be able to use its tighter turning circle to out-turn the FW 190, if it takes the same amount of time to complete that circle? Seems that the P-51 would just turn 360s inside of the FW 190 indefinitely, but without ever getting guns on target. But if that's the case, then what is the advantage of a tighter turning circle, in sustained turns? Is it, perhaps, that smaller turn radius matters (as well as turn time) in instantaneous turns, but in sustained turns, turn time is the sole determining factor? That doesn't sound right, either. I need diagrams. : (

 

Very difficult problem; I fly by feel rather than via maths, so I've never successfully analyzed this before. When two different fighters are both turning at their best sustained turn speeds, one simply out-turns the other, and I've never been able to tell (except in certain rare, extreme cases) whether it was by turning tighter, turning faster, or both. Even back when I was very good at dogfighting, I was never able to consistently feel which it was; I merely felt that I was gaining in the turn.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Echo38