Beating the refueling horse to its death

[Pinefang]

Okay nearly two years of trying to AAR. I either can't stay lined up or when I get connected I can't control my speed. I've watched every video and been tutored in flight and nothing works. It is like an impossibility to me. But why me? Is having rudder pedals an advantage or does it make any difference at all. Oh I will keep trying I'm just a little disappointed right now and don't know where to turn. Trim Trim Trim. Had to get this off my chest

[Destroyer37]

What joystick are you using?

[Yurgon]

I don't think I can offer much help. Air-to-air refueling is one of the most challenging things in aviation.

 

Since you brought up speed issues: I have a TM Warthog. I used to connect both throttles until I learned there's no such link in the real aircraft. Ever since I fly with the throttles unlinked, it comes almost natural to "walk the throttles" during AAR. If I'm falling behind the boom, I add a little bit of left or a little bit of right throttle, and if I come too close, I pull back one throttle very gently. That really helps in making some fine adjustments.

 

Other than that, I think it's "just" a matter of practice, though I have to say that working on this task for two years sounds like a very long time.

 

If you post a track or a video, maybe someone can point out individual problems and give more specific advice. :thumbup:

[Destroyer37]

A couple of tips from an amateur, keep your feet off the pedals once your connected, don't watch the boom watch the aircraft, I turned the sensitivity of my joystick down a bit to make everything a bit smoother, anticipate power reduction or addition as it takes a few seconds for the turbines to spin up or down to the new power setting, I use a bit of nose down trim to account for the tendency to pull the nose high when closing in and most importantly practice, practice, and more practice

[doright]

I practice almost daily and I'm yet to perform a good merge, hook up and complete fill from almost empty. Close but never all three.

 

Don't need rudder. In fact when I find myself over controlling I wiggle my toes. It sound silly but it works to settle you down.

 

Two biggest things a found for a successful tanking:

1. Practice...

 

2. The view. I adjust my view so I'm low in the seat, looking slightly up, and zoomed out some so entire canopy bow is visible. That position places an air space between the bottom of the canopy bow and the top of the KC's wing. Then I also put the end of the drogue (not the hose) with the top of the wing about slicing it in half. I'm not sure why but it is a much more stable position for me.

 

3. The throttle. Immediately correct any hose extension, retraction. Whatever correction you made though must be reversed as soon the movement stops. Don't wait until you're back in position. After you stopped the movement correct slowly back to center in the green. The reverse half the throttle movement rule works well here. Changing throttle does seem to pitch the nose so drastic throttle movements are going to cause pitch changes, and things can get ugly fast. So be gentle on the throttle, but be sure to correct hose movement.

 

I have used a MSFF2, T16000m, Warthog Flight Stick all with the same results, if I get the view right and throttle working correctly. I rarely worry about trim, but a little nose down is good so you aren't trying to work your stick across it's center.

[Sabre-TLA]

We have both Day and Night AAR missions (also part of our Advanced Aircraft Training Qualification Campaign) that have some tips and tricks.

 

One recommendation is to fly off the tanker and not the boom - don't chase the boom and trim until you can control the aircraft with very small movements of the stick. "Walk the throttles" is also very good advice.

 

Practice is the best advice of all. It is the hardest thing to do in any aircraft IMO and especially more difficult at night or in bad weather. :cry:

[PFunk1606688187]

Several of the people I fly with regularly say that they actually trim their aircraft noticeably nose heavy before hooking up.

 

I would also recommend a 0/0 stick curve if you aren't using that already.

[Yurgon]

I would also recommend a 0/0 stick curve if you aren't using that already.

 

This is a topic of much debate. :)

 

Personally, I find any DCS module nearly uncontrollable without a stick curve. I just use 15 for pitch, roll and rudder and that works fine for me.

 

In case I ever install an extension to the Warthog, I will get rid of the curve, but for the time being, this is what works for me.

 

Therefore my recommendation would be that anyone should just use what works best for them.

[SharpeXB]

It took me about two weeks of practice to get this down, using the Maple Flag Training missions. One vital step is to stabilize yourself at a constant speed and trimmed before walking forward to contact. It takes enough practice to the point where you're anticipating the control inputs and not just reacting which is too late. Like riding a bicycle in four dimensions. It feels at first like no amount of practice will help but then it clicks.

Edited March 14, 2015 by SharpeXB

[Krunkskimo]

i find a short cannon burst into the tankers tail does the trick.

[PFunk1606688187]

This is a topic of much debate. :)

 

Personally, I find any DCS module nearly uncontrollable without a stick curve. I just use 15 for pitch, roll and rudder and that works fine for me.

 

In case I ever install an extension to the Warthog, I will get rid of the curve, but for the time being, this is what works for me.

 

Therefore my recommendation would be that anyone should just use what works best for them.

 

The problem with stick curves is that it lowers the resolution of input at the further ends of your stick throw. You're sacrificing precision at one end for resolution at another. I used to be a curve freak. I couldn't do jack without my 20/20 curve. Then I switched it off, had a few shaky landings, and surprisingly it was easy peasy after that.

 

Before anyone tells me well yea bub, you got a $500 stick, I don't. I have a second hand X52 that I've done the spring mod on (using a piece of plastic from the lid of a 50 pack DVD case). The first thing I noticed when I turned off the curve was the responsiveness of the controls. That curve slows you down. Rolling is faster without the curve, as is pitching. I'm sure a stick extension would make it even better, but honestly its mostly in your head.

 

To me the responsiveness of the controls with a curve is muddy. I don't want to make my inputs perfect at the cost of alacrity. Whats more I think that extra responsiveness is beneficial. I think the net result of a curve is basically like capping the horsepower of your car to keep up with your own inexperience, because muscle memory is an experience thing. When I started my curve dependency I tried to fly without it, hated it, and went right to the training wheels. I wish that I had just taken the scraped knees because it was just another thing for me to unlearn along the way.

 

I might feel differently if I flew prop planes regularly, but with something that has SAS I don't think its called for. Pure mind job in my opinion. :joystick:

Edited March 14, 2015 by P*Funk

[rcjonessnp175]

If we are talking about the hog and you have the thrustmaster warthog. You should not run any curve what so ever. works perfectly, take the time to establish muscle memory and you will be golden.

 

 

Oh and Aerial refuel is super easy in the Oculus Rift Or even 3dvision.

[Yurgon]

Like I said, a topic of much debate. I agree with your points about muscle memory but disagree with the "this is how everybody should do it" approach. And while I would love to get into this in much more detail, I fear we have already derailed the thread.

 

I haven't performed A-A refueling in the A-10C in quite some time (I think the last one may have been around x-mas last year), so much to my delight I was able to fill the Hog in one go twice in a row under good weather conditions in a simple training mission. However it sure wasn't easy, required all my concentration and I was close to a disconnect on more than one occasion. All I can say really is practice, practice and practice.

 

With the F/A-18 and F-14 approaching, what's everyones opinion on probe & drogue vs. boom -- which is more difficult? I've never flown a probe & drogue refueling but from what I've seen in RL videos, catching the basket is pretty difficult, but I guess staying connected is somewhat easier than with the boom. But I can't tell whether there's any truth to this observation.

[PFunk1606688187]

I just think that curves aren't necessary or the lack of one any sort of obstacle to success in AAR while the downsides to having any curve on your stick affect all other phases of flight to such a degree that its not even worth considering in my opinion.

 

So I suggest to anyone who wants to shake up their approach if they're hitting a brick wall on AAR to nix the curve and try trimming nose heavy. The other thing is that I find, and others I know have said the same, that tanking in a bank is easier than level so perhaps another way to approach the problem differently is set up a tanker in a permanent orbit rather than a racetrack.

 

Another thing I did when I was learning was to flip the HUD to Stanby mode and get rid of all that green shit. Its a visual formation exercise at its heart so the TVV and the speed and the alt and all the rest are just distractions. Learn to tank without them and you can correctly ignore them when you're better.

 

Its worth noting also that real pilots will be very proficient at general formation flying long before they get near a real tanker so thats going to play a major factor in how easy it is for them. If you only fly solo you're really missing a key chunk of the experience overhead you would be relying on.

[vikko]

Nobody haven't adviced to trim out the aircraft plus you really have to anticipate things- for example if you wish to slow down a few knots, then as soon as you see speed decreasing you'll have to add throttle just a bit to counter spool-up lag and same applies when you're going too fast as well. Same goes for pitch axis as well. In short, keep your plane trimmed out for that speed/loadout and anticipate speed decelrations/accelerations.

[Derbysieger]

I just think that curves aren't necessary or the lack of one any sort of obstacle to success in AAR while the downsides to having any curve on your stick affect all other phases of flight to such a degree that its not even worth considering in my opinion.

 

So I suggest to anyone who wants to shake up their approach if they're hitting a brick wall on AAR to nix the curve and try trimming nose heavy. The other thing is that I find, and others I know have said the same, that tanking in a bank is easier than level so perhaps another way to approach the problem differently is set up a tanker in a permanent orbit rather than a racetrack.

 

Another thing I did when I was learning was to flip the HUD to Stanby mode and get rid of all that green shit. Its a visual formation exercise at its heart so the TVV and the speed and the alt and all the rest are just distractions. Learn to tank without them and you can correctly ignore them when you're better.

 

Its worth noting also that real pilots will be very proficient at general formation flying long before they get near a real tanker so thats going to play a major factor in how easy it is for them. If you only fly solo you're really missing a key chunk of the experience overhead you would be relying on.

 

While I agree that 0/0 curves are something you should definitely look into (I fly without curves myself) I think a slight curve can make things a lot easier in the beginning or they might even be necessary if you have a joystick that isn't very precise. If you're more comfortable with curves, all power to you but personally I wouldn't want to fly with curves.

 

I started out with a Logitech 3D Pro (or whatever it's called) and I couldn't fly straight without a hefty deadzone and a curve of 25/25. When I got my HOTAS WH I initially set it up with 20/20 curves but quickly reduced them to 0/0 and never looked back. It took me just a few hours of getting used to.

 

I tried curves for the MiG-21 recently because someone said it was more realistic, but the reduced responsiveness around the centre really put me off. I quickly went back to 0/0

 

@OP:

I would highly recommend to practise formation flying with a buddy before trying aerial refueling. If you can fly in close formation with someone else, you can probably get your tank filled without too much of a problem.

 

I wrote this a while back: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=170423297

It may help a little but in the end it's only a lot of practice that will get you there.

[PFunk1606688187]

I find flying close formation echelon is far more challenging than tanking since you're flying outside of your buddy's plane of motion while with AAR you're basically flying a near identical track to the Tanker's.

 

I'm not gonna beat the curve thing to death, but the extra responsiveness of the 0/0 is just as much a benefit to tanking as the higher resolution of a curve, but also the sluggish input of a curve is its own detractor since its delaying your inputs. The only thing a curve is doing is taking your excessive controls and handicapping them, while without a curve its all about precise control. Which one is better for someone to learn anyway? Should someone who has poor precision be worried about his tanking?

 

The notion of using a curve to make AAR more comfy is kind of like trying to achieve a result before you've achieved the proficiency in control to deserve that result. If the stick is such a POS that it needs something like you said, then all bets are off for most advice I think.

 

I do agree with the advice about formation flying. Its a lot of fun and not nearly as stressful as chasing a tanker. Flying with friends is a hoot and having fun is extremely beneficial to learning while stress and failure can be off putting if experienced too often.

[WildBillKelsoe]

Practice flying formation without connecting.

Once comfortable , slice back into contact position.

Once connected zoom out and fix your canopy to the tanker, maintain peripheral vision of boom colors as you do so.

 

Video coming up.

[Pinefang]

I am using the CH Fighterstick USB and CH Pro Throttle without rudder pedals

[WildBillKelsoe]

Same with pro pedals. I set my curves for pitch and roll to 35, and throttle curve at

 

Try this.

[Pinefang]

Thanks everyone for your welcomed input. I will continue to practice this important skill and hopefully one day it will all come together.

[StrongHarm]

My personal taste is to use some axis curve. Here's a post on it. You don't need the full range of the stick when curves aren't present anyway, so making the 0-20% range of the stick less sensitive doesn't hurt. Just my pref.

 

Here are some of the things that closed the AAR gaps for me:

1. Set your curves to cut some low range sensitivity

2. Find proper alt under boom

3. Find proper speed THEN trim

4. Don't fly the boom.. lock the HUD frame to tanker and hold that 'site picture' (I use upper left and right corners and lock them onto a point of the tanker.. it's like 'aim small miss small' with marksmanship)

5. Wash the stick (thanks Tuk!)

 

*Washing the stick was taught to me by a USAF Pilot. You move the stick in a slow counter clockwise motion (like stirring something) and it allows you to make very precise corrections. I know it sounds crazy, but it really works.

[Snoopy]

I'll ask the real A-10 pilots in my reserve unit what they have their curves set to.:music_whistling:

 

:joystick:

 

:pilotfly:

 

http://www.476vfightergroup.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=55

[doright]

I'll ask the real A-10 pilots in my reserve unit what they have their curves set to.

 

It would be really interesting to ask what their visual cues are for positioning themselves in the refueling spot. Or even better a go-pro style video from the pilot's perspective, instead of the boom operator.

[Snoopy]

It would be really interesting to ask what their visual cues are for positioning themselves in the refueling spot. Or even better a go-pro style video from the pilot's perspective, instead of the boom operator.

 

 

Click on the link I posted, written using real world docs.