FAQ: VEAO Typhoon for DCS World

[QuiGon]

Please go back and read the posts that I have made on the typhoon variant.

 

Tldr: We are doing the T1B5 no other variants are going to be produced.

 

Pman

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I think you haven't said that often enough over the past years. You should say that more often.

Edited August 15, 2016 by QuiGon

[Pman]

What a pitty.

 

Its challenging in many ways to model an aircraft and its systems which in RL is highly classified and will be for at least 2 decades to come.

 

From that perspective, you could model or not model certain systems, it will still be mostly guess work and proximity but no publicaly available facts.

 

I love Ef2000 but will steer around this one as it just hasnt what i want and most of the rest in systems must be guesswork as real data is top secret.

 

How does this approach fit into DCS's demands of accuracy based on RL data?

 

A2A highly depends on radar capabilities, are those numbers available accurate enough to say it can lock +40km compared to a Su27, or 30....or25??? Guesswork

 

 

Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

 

As posted above but just so you have it from someone official, Our ties to the military are quite broad and extensive and we have access to all the material we need to make a highly accurate module for the public. We have negotiated guidelines and redaction acceptance from the RAF regarding systems that are too sensitive for the public domain to be simulated in full. Those systems will be emulated to produce results are in line with results agreed with the military.

 

To be quite honest with you, the systems effected are classified and there is no data in the public domain regarding these systems so when they are done, you won't know what is what and that is the way it should be.

 

But the end result is that the symbology may be slightly different, or the precise operating procedure may be tweaked as per requests from our military partners, but this will be the closest simulation to the Typhoon you will fly outside of a military environment.

 

Pman

[shagrat]

Please go back and read the posts that I have made on the typhoon variant.

 

Tldr: We are doing the T1B5 no other variants are going to be produced.

 

Pman

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

...and in all honesty, the first posts and Infos included, A2G and "we are looking into LGBs, TGP, and others options."

 

To be fair, it was always in a clear "we try our best" and "according to what we are allowed to model" way.

So I do not blame you. I am just sad, with so many cool options gone...

 

So let's look on the bright side. With less weapons to model and integrate, the Typhoon should be ready soon :D

[QuiGon]

...and in all honesty, the first posts and Infos included, A2G and "we are looking into LGBs, TGP, and others options."

 

To be fair, it was always in a clear "we try our best" and "according to what we are allowed to model" way.

So I do not blame you. I am just sad, with so many cool options gone...

 

So let's look on the bright side. With less weapons to model and integrate, the Typhoon should be ready soon :D

 

That hasn't changed. From Friday:

That is correct, although the T1B5 did not have A2G capability when they entered service it was added post deployment.

 

Integration is still being discusse internally and no work has been done on any integration of a Litening pod yet, my gut instinct is that we will not do it, but that may change.

 

Pman

 

So it's still beeing looked at and might happen, although it is unlikely.

[Aginor]

As long as it can be the "bomb truck" carrying LGBs at least I am.... well... I wouldn't say "happy" but it would be OK.

If they can add the Litening pod one day that would be something making me happy. Even without Brimstones and such stuff, just with LGBs.

 

A pure A2A Eurofighter is... meh. I would probably still get it, but I wouldn't be too thrilled. Understandable? Yeah, sure. Still sad.

[QuiGon]

As long as it can be the "bomb truck" carrying LGBs at least I am.... well... I wouldn't say "happy" but it would be OK.

If they can add the Litening pod one day that would be something making me happy. Even without Brimstones and such stuff, just with LGBs.

 

A pure A2A Eurofighter is... meh. I would probably still get it, but I wouldn't be too thrilled. Understandable? Yeah, sure. Still sad.

 

IIRC we will get A-G capabilities for sure, but it might be restricted to dumb bombs. Is that correct @Pman? If so, does it have CCIP/CCRP?

[Spectre11]

Gentlemen let's get the facts straight!

 

The Typhoon was always designed with multirole operations in mind from its very inception. AA was the day one priority however and AG capabilities were meant to be added later, not least as priorities differed among the partner nations. And just for the record until 1990 even the Luftwaffe intended to employ the type for AG missions arming it with the AGM-65B and AGM-88B which were used by other types. Bear in mind that the RAF always planned tobreplace its Jaguars with the Typhoon!

 

As far as the actual development progressed Typhoons were capable to self-designate in 2008 already! That they teamed up with Tornados over Libya was owed to the fact that the RAF crews were no longer current in that role, they had to be trained to regain proficiency in using the pod and operating in the CAS role in general. All RAF T1 Typhoons at SRP 4.2 or higher are capable of using the LDP, albeit integration of the pod was more limited, but continued to grow with the Drop updates. What was introduced for Libya were Drop 1, R2P and UKDE all building on the SRP 4.3 baseline which included the HEA HMD as well.

[QuiGon]

Gentlemen let's get the facts straight!

 

The Typhoon was always designed with multirole operations in mind from its very inception. AA was the day one priority however and AG capabilities were meant to be added later, not least as priorities differed among the partner nations. And just for the record until 1990 even the Luftwaffe intended to employ the type for AG missions arming it with the AGM-65B and AGM-88B which were used by other types. Bear in mind that the RAF always planned tobreplace its Jaguars with the Typhoon!

 

As far as the actual development progressed Typhoons were capable to self-designate in 2008 already! That they teamed up with Tornados over Libya was owed to the fact that the RAF crews were no longer current in that role, they had to be trained to regain proficiency in using the pod and operating in the CAS role in general. All RAF T1 Typhoons at SRP 4.2 or higher are capable of using the LDP, albeit integration of the pod was more limited, but continued to grow with the Drop updates. What was introduced for Libya were Drop 1, R2P and UKDE all building on the SRP 4.3 baseline which included the HEA HMD as well.

 

I wish our air force would be that fast. Testing of LDP integration just started last year :noexpression:

[Spectre11]

Because the Luftwaffe only started to exploit the pod as part of the SRP10 capability package (P1Ea), which is introduced for T3A Block 20 aircraft. Unlike the RAF or RSAF the Luftwaffe decided to not bring up T2 aircraft to this standard, but directly upgrade them to SRP12 standard (P1Eb). The RAF and AMI have both cleared SRP12 in advance of the 4-national NETMA clearance.

[VTJS17_Fire]

Oh boys ... you get one of the most agile fighter of the modern era with top-of-the-notch avioncs and cry, that you can't drop some bombs. :doh:

 

If you want to bomb something, fly a target - not a fighter. :pilotfly:

[Darkbrotherhood7]

Oh boys ... you get one of the most agile fighter of the modern era with top-of-the-notch avioncs and cry, that you can't drop some bombs. :doh:

 

If you want to bomb something, fly a target - not a fighter. :pilotfly:

 

1++

[microvax]

I love it when people bring up brimstone and you look at it and be like.

m9 its not even on the tiffie operational yet, how is anyone even supposed to simulate that. :DD

 

I am 100% fine with the Eurofighter not having more then the mirage in terms of a/g.

AKA dropping GBU12s without even knowing it is an LGB.

 

I am even fine with 0 a/g capability.

 

What I would love to see are AIM2000 missiles, but since they are not used by the RAF I am not having all to high hopes. Doing the IRST + ASRAM thing to the ruskies will be funny enough already. :D

[Tirak]

Oh boys ... you get one of the most agile fighter of the modern era with top-of-the-notch avioncs and cry, that you can't drop some bombs. :doh:

 

If you want to bomb something, fly a target - not a fighter. :pilotfly:

 

 

 

There is a huge contingent of multirole fighters in modern airforces. Aircraft like the F-18, F-16, F-15E, ect. ad nauseum are not only all capable dogfighters, but powerful ground attack aircraft. Given the expense of these modules, it makes sense that quite a few people are looking to get as much as they can out of them. The fact that the Typhoon will not come equipped with some form of precision strike is off putting to many people, as at the end of the day, what we'll be getting will essentially be an SU-27 with the ability to sling AMRAAMs. Cute, but does that justify the price tag. To many, that answer is of course, as they're looking for any 4 or 4.5 generation fighter to break up the FC3 stranglehold on dogfight servers, to many others, it causes us to look very hard at whether or not we're getting enough bang for our buck.

Edited August 16, 2016 by BIGNEWY
1.3 Administrative actions against forum members are not subject to public discussion. If you feel an action against you was

[Aginor]

Only A2A is boring. Multi-role is yummy! :)

Well, at least we will get the F/A-18C

[microvax]

 

There is a huge contingent of multirole fighters in modern airforces. Aircraft like the F-18, F-16, F-15E, ect. ad nauseum are not only all capable dogfighters, but powerful ground attack aircraft. Given the expense of these modules, it makes sense that quite a few people are looking to get as much as they can out of them. The fact that the Typhoon will not come equipped with some form of precision strike is off putting to many people, as at the end of the day, what we'll be getting will essentially be an SU-27 with the ability to sling AMRAAMs. Cute, but does that justify the price tag. To many, that answer is of course, as they're looking for any 4 or 4.5 generation fighter to break up the FC3 stranglehold on dogfight servers, to many others, it causes us to look very hard at whether or not we're getting enough bang for our buck.

 

Use google translate, sorry there is really no better source of info on some in detail looks of Tiffie systems, and read the german wikipedia articles [lots of sources in each article, so its quite reliable] about the IRST, the Captor Radar and the DASS.

 

An su27 which can sling amraams is by all means an extreme understatement in terms of Tiffie capabilites even with a 1t5.

 

It will trash the living sould out of everything else in DCS if flown by a competent pilot.

Like only to speak about the missile warner, its active radar, which means, well, you detect fighter sized objects in every direction except straight up straight down within 50km even if your RADAR isnt looking.

You actually have and ECM suite which gives you cues for maneuvers for optimal missile evaison.

 

Even if we get the same missiles, due to its ECM suite the Eurofighter shall be just the ultimate missile trash mobile. Its bloody marvelous.

Not to speak about propper moving map, datalink etc. etc..

 

I mean look at what happend on blueflag. :D The mirage has a radar bug atm, which gave it a very glitched but still STT lock at a target even if it was outside the radar coverage.

Even bad pilots got quite some kills due to the big advantage in SA.

 

Not even speaking about data link, and 360 degrees coverage by MWS.

 

Just saying, going two ship eurofighter with datalink is just going to be bloody op.

 

One goes active radar scan, the other comes in from the side beeing passive on IRST, which will probably outperform most radars in game, and then just goes radar active and fires 4 TWS aim120s if needed, job done. In face the bandits go defensive, well you have a second eurofighter which even if he was defensive has all the targets by datalink from the offensive before passive Tiffie and can directly turn to engage.

 

 

Well I would say, yes thats a lot better then anything any Fighter can do atm. :DD

 

And I mean loads of people bought the mirage.

And the Tiffie is just lightyears ahead of the tiffie.

 

How do you imagine people not buying the tiffie ? :D

 

 

Apart from that, I know the feels with the profanity warnings. :D

Edited August 16, 2016 by BIGNEWY
quoted 1.3

[Tirak]

The T1B5s do not have AESA radar, they have a mechanically scanned array. That puts them at F-15 level capability in air to air weapons systems. Sure, the resolution will be much better, but using it puts you on their RWR, and the mechanical array does not have the great targeting flexibility to hardlock targets while still scanning openly. It will not be equipped with Meteor or ASRAAM so will be using the AIM-120B, C or D.

 

Like the SU-27 it will have an IRST, like the SU-27 it will be extremely maneuverable. However I very much doubt the details of the MWS will be available, such as the missile avoidance prompts, and likewise I doubt that we will see any sort of great effectiveness on the IRST, which I predict will be classified to the extreme.

 

Between in game weapons limitations, and restrictions placed on the module by the DoD, i predict, and when the module comes out you can quote me as having said this, the aircraft we'll get will be a blend of the F-15s targeting and electronics, with a few simple additions in terms of an RWR with no gaps and navigational aids like the moving map, with the maneuverability and passive targeting of the SU-27.

 

And personally, if it doesn't have ground attack, I'll be one of those people not buying the Typhoon.

[shagrat]

Oh boys ... you get one of the most agile fighter of the modern era with top-of-the-notch avioncs and cry, that you can't drop some bombs. :doh:

 

If you want to bomb something, fly a target - not a fighter. :pilotfly:

As we like realism, we prefer real Tasks, for the planes?

As pilots actually fought an "Air combat" in the Gulf War to my knowledge.

 

So apart from a nice red Flag now and then, the realistic scenario would be pretty boring?

 

And just keep in mind, not everybody wants to best others by comparing the kength of their virtual sexual organs... ;)

 

I and may be a lot of others prefer deep strike missions over flying in circles.

[shagrat]

I love it when people bring up brimstone and you look at it and be like.

m9 its not even on the tiffie operational yet, how is anyone even supposed to simulate that. :DD

 

I am 100% fine with the Eurofighter not having more then the mirage in terms of a/g.

AKA dropping GBU12s without even knowing it is an LGB.

 

I am even fine with 0 a/g capability.

 

What I would love to see are AIM2000 missiles, but since they are not used by the RAF I am not having all to high hopes. Doing the IRST + ASRAM thing to the ruskies will be funny enough already. :D

Nobody asked for the Brimstone? On the contrary, and for the very reasons you said...

[microvax]

The T1B5s do not have AESA radar, they have a mechanically scanned array. That puts them at F-15 level capability in air to air weapons systems. Sure, the resolution will be much better, but using it puts you on their RWR, and the mechanical array does not have the great targeting flexibility to hardlock targets while still scanning openly. It will not be equipped with Meteor or ASRAAM so will be using the AIM-120B, C or D.

 

Like the SU-27 it will have an IRST, like the SU-27 it will be extremely maneuverable. However I very much doubt the details of the MWS will be available, such as the missile avoidance prompts, and likewise I doubt that we will see any sort of great effectiveness on the IRST, which I predict will be classified to the extreme.

 

Between in game weapons limitations, and restrictions placed on the module by the DoD, i predict, and when the module comes out you can quote me as having said this, the aircraft we'll get will be a blend of the F-15s targeting and electronics, with a few simple additions in terms of an RWR with no gaps and navigational aids like the moving map, with the maneuverability and passive targeting of the SU-27.

 

And personally, if it doesn't have ground attack, I'll be one of those people not buying the Typhoon.

Yes they do have mechanically scanned antennas, and I do really not get why I even pointed you to the articles. If you had read them you would have known that the Radar we will get can TWS 24 targets simoutaeneously at 100miles range. With increased range in RWS, but that is obviously not enough for weapons guidance. To put it simple, you do not need to STT stuff in the Tiffie, why would you. So you will see that you are beeing painted and that is about all you will ever know with a tiffie launching at you. And with 24 targets in TWS you can practically TWS the entire enemy fleet in multiplayer.

 

Apart from that, since I dont want to read the whole article to you, it is way better at CCM.

 

Not like the Su27 it should be able to run supercruise with a light load on wartime engine settings, not like the su27 it will be way more maneuverable, and only stall around 100knots, not like the su27 IRST its an actual FLIR, so you can even use it for nightvision. You can doubt as much as you want, read the german article about the DASS, read the sources and then come back and tell me there is not enough info even out there if you are not in contact with the RAF as VEAO is, to make something which is probably close to the real thing and just lightyears ahead of anything else in DCS.

 

With the IRST effectiveness, well keep doubting as much as you want, the public numbers are out there, and they are better against an subsonic target from the front, then the mirages radar. Not even talking about sensor fusion and target identification by radar and ir emissions or complete passive inteligence just gathered by radio traffic and side lobes and the glorious sensor fusion.

 

For the missile evaision prompts we have the symbolics and veao will have to adapt them for DCS missile functionality anyways.

 

You obviously didnt even try to read the articles, they do go quite in depth for the algorithms and capabilities. There is way more information available in theese articles then even can be simulated in the DCS engine in full functionality. If we get what you describe, a bad Typhoon module, then VEAO would have done a bad job.

 

And honestly, I do not expect VEAO to do a bad job. If they did the RAF would probably already have cancelled the whole thing. And even if they didnt have contact to the RAF, there is a lot of info out there. And since they have that contact, well the better.

 

 

If its a bad module, its a bad module, and I do not expect a bad module.

But It wont fail because of missing info in the case of VEAO I guess.

 

And that you dont want a pure fighter is fine, the f18 or Viggen should be your cup of tea. :)

[microvax]

Nobody asked for the Brimstone? On the contrary, and for the very reasons you said...

 

In this thread: dunno

In the Typhone subforum: ohh lord they did. :D

[Darkbrotherhood7]

It will not be equipped with Meteor or ASRAAM so will be using the AIM-120B, C or D.

 

Why not?:)

 

A: The exact weapons fit has not been set in stone, but bear in mind that VEAO will only simulate weapons that are integrated on real Typhoon Block 5 aircraft in service with the RAF.

 

From public sources you can gather that weapons cleared for real Block 5 aircraft comprise the AIM-9L Sidewinder, ASRAAM and IRIS-T infrared guided short range air-to-air missiles (SRAAM), the A, B & C5 variants of the AIM-120 AMRAAM active radar guided medium range air-to-air missile (MRAAM), the internally housed Mauser Bk27 gun, 1000 lb class free fall bombs, UK Paveway II and GBU-16 1000 lb class laser guided bombs (LGBs), GBU-10 2000 lb class LGBs and Enhanced Paveway II dual-mode bombs with laser/GPS-guidance. In addition the aircraft is cleared for carriage of up to three 1000 l supersonic fuel tanks and the Rafael Litening 3 laser designator pod (LDP).

 

As mentioned before the VEAO Typhoon will simulate the aircraft as is in service with the RAF. That means weapons like the IRIS-T, GBU-10 or GBU-16 won’t be integrated. It can be confirmed that the EPW II won’t be integrated at this point either, but the team is looking at the possibility to implement the Paveway II and LDP. As development of air-to-ground capabilities hasn’t begun on behalf of the VEAO team time will show whether its implementation can be harmonized with the time scales envisaged. If not you’ll have to cope with an air-to-air only capable version of this aircraft. However, that doesn’t rule out the possibility of future additions.

 

The ASRAAM is in service with the RAF, so still a possibility.:)

[Tirak]

Yes they do have mechanically scanned antennas, and I do really not get why I even pointed you to the articles. If you had read them you would have known that the Radar we will get can TWS 24 targets simoutaeneously at 100miles range. With increased range in RWS, but that is obviously not enough for weapons guidance. To put it simple, you do not need to STT stuff in the Tiffie, why would you. So you will see that you are beeing painted and that is about all you will ever know with a tiffie launching at you. And with 24 targets in TWS you can practically TWS the entire enemy fleet in multiplayer.

 

Apart from that, since I dont want to read the whole article to you, it is way better at CCM.

 

Not like the Su27 it should be able to run supercruise with a light load on wartime engine settings, not like the su27 it will be way more maneuverable, and only stall around 100knots, not like the su27 IRST its an actual FLIR, so you can even use it for nightvision. You can doubt as much as you want, read the german article about the DASS, read the sources and then come back and tell me there is not enough info even out there if you are not in contact with the RAF as VEAO is, to make something which is probably close to the real thing and just lightyears ahead of anything else in DCS.

 

With the IRST effectiveness, well keep doubting as much as you want, the public numbers are out there, and they are better against an subsonic target from the front, then the mirages radar. Not even talking about sensor fusion and target identification by radar and ir emissions or complete passive inteligence just gathered by radio traffic and side lobes and the glorious sensor fusion.

 

For the missile evaision prompts we have the symbolics and veao will have to adapt them for DCS missile functionality anyways.

 

You obviously didnt even try to read the articles, they do go quite in depth for the algorithms and capabilities. There is way more information available in theese articles then even can be simulated in the DCS engine in full functionality. If we get what you describe, a bad Typhoon module, then VEAO would have done a bad job.

 

And honestly, I do not expect VEAO to do a bad job. If they did the RAF would probably already have cancelled the whole thing. And even if they didnt have contact to the RAF, there is a lot of info out there. And since they have that contact, well the better.

 

 

If its a bad module, its a bad module, and I do not expect a bad module.

But It wont fail because of missing info in the case of VEAO I guess.

 

And that you dont want a pure fighter is fine, the f18 or Viggen should be your cup of tea. :)

 

TWS is something the F-15 is capable in game as well mate. This is not a new capability being brought to DCS, it is in fact the preferred method of engagement right now in multiplayer. I said nothing about STT mode or giving away a launch warning, merely your position. The aircraft will know where you are yes, but so too will you have an idea of where they are, so no major advantage over the current crop of F-15s we have now.

 

Supercruise has no multiplayer advantage, it is a logistical boon and grants increased range, however the map we fly on will not allow the aircraft to take advantage of that.

 

Public capability vs what VEAO will be allowed to model will be different. For example I point you to the A-10 module we have. We know that Laser Guided Mavericks exist. We even have, in publicly sourced documents, a good understanding of how it works. However we do not have the option to use it in game anymore because ED was instructed to remove it by the US ANG. Just because we have good numbers and public statements about a capability, does not mean it will be modeled.

[TomOnSteam]

The T1B5s do not have AESA radar, they have a mechanically scanned array. That puts them at F-15 level capability in air to air weapons systems. Sure, the resolution will be much better, but using it puts you on their RWR, and the mechanical array does not have the great targeting flexibility to hardlock targets while still scanning openly. It will not be equipped with Meteor or ASRAAM so will be using the AIM-120B, C or D.

 

Like the SU-27 it will have an IRST, like the SU-27 it will be extremely maneuverable. However I very much doubt the details of the MWS will be available, such as the missile avoidance prompts, and likewise I doubt that we will see any sort of great effectiveness on the IRST, which I predict will be classified to the extreme.

 

Between in game weapons limitations, and restrictions placed on the module by the DoD, i predict, and when the module comes out you can quote me as having said this, the aircraft we'll get will be a blend of the F-15s targeting and electronics, with a few simple additions in terms of an RWR with no gaps and navigational aids like the moving map, with the maneuverability and passive targeting of the SU-27.

 

And personally, if it doesn't have ground attack, I'll be one of those people not buying the Typhoon.

 

I'm thinking along the same lines as well. To me there just isn't that much sets the EuroFighter apart in the currently planned configuration. It'll be stuff I've already been doing for years, so I'm not enticed to buy it.

 

(this goes for all DCS modules) My reasoning is that I'd like an aircraft that can either do it all (multi-role) or have something very unique about it. Such as multi-crew capability, a MiG-25's speed, or an F-22's stealth, Harrier VTOL, or at least, if there is a historically accurate scenario I can role-play an aircraft in.

 

I'm sure it still has a market though, I bet there are a lot of EuroFighter fans that wouldn't step into any other plane, even if the capabilities are similar.

Edited August 16, 2016 by TomOnSteam

[Tomhatter]

Yeah but at least the Mig had those systems. The specific build that we are working on is a 2009 airframe. Over 3 years before the Typhoon successfully lazed for itself with a litening pod.

 

Our goal is to produce the best simulation of the Eurofighter that we can/are able to make within DCS.

 

Regarding other aircraft, it is not our call what is or is not included with other modules, we can only control what is included within our modules. This isn't just with regard to the Typhoon but all of the other as well.

 

Even with LGB the aircraft would only have pretty basic A2G capabilities, that is not the role the T1B5 forfilled for the airframe we are working on.

 

Sorry Shagrat, Although it will dissapoint some people, Our Eurofighter is never going to be a true Multi-Role aircraft. Its primary purpose will be A2A operations and very basic ground support.

 

Pman

 

HENCE THE REASON I WILL PASS ON PURCHASING THIS MODULE. DCS is becoming very one dimensional. Does anyone else think it's a bit odd that after 12 years the A-10 is the only module utilizing a targeting pod???

[Angelthunder]

Well,if you guys don't want to buy the aircraft,because of a lack of A2G.Then why don't you wait for the real A2G Typhoon.The World War II Hawker Typhoon.:D