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Posted
If we are getting an appropriate map, I am planning to create a dynamic campaign for the Viggen. It will be about a Soviet invasion of Sweden in the 1980s (in the context of a global East-West war, exact year to be determined) and is divided into two phases.

 

Phase one: Soviet airstrikes on the Swedish air force in order to gain air superiority for an amphibious operation. The AJ37 will be employed as auxiliary fighter in air defense missions. Soviet fighter-bomber and bomber units deployed in the Baltic republics and Kaliningrad were primary equipped with Su-24, Su-17 and MiG-27 (there was one MiG-21 regiment near Riga). Most fighter units in the area were PVO (Su-15 and MiG-23, first Su-27 in 1987). I do not think they would have been used for offensive missions and would have been retained for territorial defense (which might include air defense for the Baltic Fleet when deployed). Only one VVS fighter regiment in Latvia with MiG-23M (MiG-29 from 1985) for offensive missions in the area. Occasional Tu-22M missile strikes from Long Range Aviation units. Swedish primary goal is to preserve its air force strength.

 

Phase two: Soviet invasion fleet crosses the Baltic for amphibious landing in Sweden. PVO fighter units provide air defense for the fleet. AJ37 fulfills its reason for existence with anti-ship strikes.

 

Sign me up!!

 

That sounds awesome. I am still hoping that the Leatherneck campaign is something like that, it makes the most sense for a Viggen module.

 

Still, sounds like either way this scenario will be playable. :D

 

-Nick

Posted
So what type of missions do you guys have planned for this aircraft from a mission designer standpoint? I guess we are getting the swedish version of the Maverick so it could do some tank or fixed target killing... What else?

 

 

There's a bunch of missions I hope to see:

Cold war style:

-"The Professor" - Enemy ELINT-vessels lie close to Swedish waters, give them a scare with an overfly. (could also be used as a bomb the living crap out of fishingboat, otherwise a simple training/introduction mission for a cold war feel)

-"The Fish": this was the codename for the intercept ready aircraft. Start east over the Baltic to identify unknown aircraft and drive them away from Swedish airspace if hostile. Would really like a RNG to determine hostility of aircraft (civilian, soviet but wields after forming up and maby using radio, or hostile)

-"Recon overseas" - Go east on a recon mission, evade interceptors and complete mission. Prohibitive ROE.

 

 

Cold war gone hot style:

-"Take the Cake": The cake was the name given to the invasion fleet. The object would be to take out the troop transports, preferably with focus on those who could be used for amphibious landings. Killing a cruiser is cool, but won't really help win the war. Use that quick turn-around time to deal a significant blow to the enemy.

-"Hunting Hinds": Well, we've got gun pods and those Hinds taking of from that container ship look like trouble for the groundforces on Gotland.

-"Bomb the Beachhead": With the landings underway, time to use the BK90 clusters on the packed invasion force.

-"DEAD on": Gotland has fallen, SA-6 batteries hold the air around the island. Go in low and take out the enemy SAMs.

-"Something something Rb05": A high value target needs to be destroyed, preferably via Rb05 strike. Commandposts or docked ships would be good targets.

 

Tons of ideas, but no know how.

But really a dynamic campaign would be awesome. (Scenarios as well)

Posted
If we are getting an appropriate map, I am planning to create a dynamic campaign for the Viggen. It will be about a Soviet invasion of Sweden in the 1980s (in the context of a global East-West war, exact year to be determined) and is divided into two phases.

 

Phase one: Soviet airstrikes on the Swedish air force in order to gain air superiority for an amphibious operation. The AJ37 will be employed as auxiliary fighter in air defense missions. Soviet fighter-bomber and bomber units deployed in the Baltic republics and Kaliningrad were primary equipped with Su-24, Su-17 and MiG-27 (there was one MiG-21 regiment near Riga). Most fighter units in the area were PVO (Su-15 and MiG-23, first Su-27 in 1987). I do not think they would have been used for offensive missions and would have been retained for territorial defense (which might include air defense for the Baltic Fleet when deployed). Only one VVS fighter regiment in Latvia with MiG-23M (MiG-29 from 1985) for offensive missions in the area. Occasional Tu-22M missile strikes from Long Range Aviation units. Swedish primary goal is to preserve its air force strength.

 

Phase two: Soviet invasion fleet crosses the Baltic for amphibious landing in Sweden. PVO fighter units provide air defense for the fleet. AJ37 fulfills its reason for existence with anti-ship strikes.

 

All I'm thinking right now is for MBot to apply here :music_whistling:

 

LNS - Mission Designer Wanted!

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Posted (edited)

Let's have a closer look at the Soviet air threat to the Swedish Air Force in the time frame of the Viggen's operational service. Below is an overview of all Soviet combat aviation regiments based in the Baltic republics and Kaliningrad in the 70s and 80s. I have not included Soviet and Polish units in Poland, as these would most likely have been preoccupied with NATO.

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=131720&stc=1&d=1451505790

(data source http://www.ww2.dk)

 

 

Some observations:

 

When looking at Soviet air power, it is important to differentiate between VVS and PVO units. VVS is the Frontal Aviation and has a tactical purpose. PVO is the Air Defense Aviation tasked with the strategic defense of the Soviet Union. While no specific war plans of the USSR are known, it is reasonable to assume that the PVO would not have participated in offensive operations and instead be retained for air defense of the Soviet homeland. This is reinforced by the emphasis of the Soviets on strategic defense in all areas. If the PVO fighter units would have been allowed to attrit themselves in tactical combat, it would open a gap for US nuclear armed bombers and cruise missiles to exploit at a later stage of the conflict. Surely the Soviets would have wanted to prevent this. An exception might have been the Baltic Fleet (or any other fleet), which can be considered a national strategic asset. It is my own interpretation that a deployed Soviet fleet could fall under the air defense umbrella of the PVO.

 

When looking at the fighter units (IAP) above, it is apparent that the majority belongs to the PVO (IAP-PVO) and would probably not be available for offensive actions against Sweden.

 

There are only two VVS IAP units: The 53rd at Siauliau and the 899th near Riga. The 53rd switched from MiG-23M to MiG-29 in 1985. While this was a jump in capability, I have doubts whether the MiG-29 actually had the range for useful operations over Sweden (350 km to Gotland, 500 km to Swedish mainland). The 899th IAP with MiG-21 became a fighter-bomber unit (APIB) in 1981. While the MiG-21SMT fighter-bombers might have had the necessary range, it is doubtful whether the MiG-21bis fighters before were capable of reaching Sweden. Additional discussion of realistic combat ranges of the mentioned types is welcomed.

 

As we can see, the fighter threat to Sweden is quite small. The most probable air threat are unescorted bombers and fighter-bombers. This illustrates well the Swedish decision to introduce the attack Viggen first in the 1970s and delaying the fighter Viggen, as the Draken was still regarded as sufficient for air defense.

 

The most potent threat to Sweden are the Su-24, which have sufficient range and the capability to evade interception by Drakens. Through the 1970s a total of 4 bomber regiments equipped with the type in the theater. This is probably to most important reason for the introduction of the look-down/shoot-down JA-37 Viggen by 1980 (more so than more capable fighters by the Soviet Union).

 

In addition to the shown types, Maritime Aviation and Long Range Aviation had several hundred Tu-16, Tu-22 and Tu-22M based in the western Soviet Union. These could be expected to contribute strikes against Sweden. By the 1970s the Soviet medium bomber force was equipped with Kh-22 and KSR-5 missiles. While these missiles probably were not extremely effective in the land attack role with conventional warheads (unlike nuclear), their respective anti-radar variants might have been a potent threat to the Swedish air defense system. When used against the Swedish coastal area, these missiles could have been launched from within or close to the Soviet borders.

 

A word on reinforcements. Without the actual Soviet war plans it is difficult to guess the reinforcement scheme applied in a build up for war. But I think the reasonable assumption can be made that Sweden was a low priority compared to the NATO theaters and that most reinforcement units would have gone to East Germany, Czechoslovakia or Poland. Actually it might even be possible that some of the regiments depicted above where themselves earmarked to be reinforcements for other theaters (it would make sense for the units that lack the range to do anything useful from their permanent base).

 

For DCS the 1980s time frame is better suited, as for the 1970s a considerable number of older aircraft types are missing (Su-7, Su-9, Su-15, MiG-19, Yak-28 ).

USSR_Baltic_Aviation_Regiments_1970-1990.thumb.png.49e71f46aafe821e04c95b74cb8412dc.png

Edited by MBot
  • Like 1
Posted (edited)

9th August 1984 there was an incident with a SU-15 going after a civilian airliner over Gotland. It was regarded (by Swedish experts) as a mistake by the Soviet radar operators, since it was part of an excersise with Su-24's an Tu-16's that it should intercept east of Gotland.

Anyway, it shouldn't be there and as stated above it was in the Baltic region for defense.

 

So, aren't there any aircrafts that would escort the Badgers, Blinders and Fencers?

Edited by BravoYankee4
Posted
Thanks Mbot.

Wouldn't a Kiev class carrier probably be present as well? A Yak-38 on an attack run would defintely be something an AJ-37 pilot would dare to chase down.

 

It would be possible but rather unlikely. I am sure that a Kiev-class ship has been in the Baltic on some occasions, but it is not a sea particularly suited for major naval units. Two Kievs were permanently based with the Northern Fleet (Kiev and Admiral Gorshkov) and two with the Pacific Fleet (Minsk and Novorossiysk).

Posted
It would be possible but rather unlikely. I am sure that a Kiev-class ship has been in the Baltic on some occasions, but it is not a sea particularly suited for major naval units. Two Kievs were permanently based with the Northern Fleet (Kiev and Admiral Gorshkov) and two with the Pacific Fleet (Minsk and Novorossiysk).

 

I found information about Kiev actually was in the Baltic sea during Zapad-81 as a flag ship. That exercise could have turned in to a full scale attack in a short notice... So, plausible perhaps? :)

Posted
9th August 1984 there was an incident with a SU-15 going after a civilian airliner over Gotland. It was regarded (by Swedish experts) as a mistake by the Soviet radar operators, since it was part of an excersise with Su-24's an Tu-16's that it should intercept east of Gotland.

Anyway, it shouldn't be there and as stated above it was in the Baltic region for defense.

 

So, aren't there any aircrafts that would escort the Badgers, Blinders and Fencers?

 

Even though these IAP units didn't have the range to effectively operate over Sweden, it would seem that they could still screen these bomber formations. Backfires and Badgers would probably launch their cruise missiles from the middle of the Baltic (200-300 km from their targets). The IAP units probably did have enough fuel to screen and try to deter Swedish fighters over the Baltic. Though even without escorting fighters, those Backfires would probably be moving at high speed over the Baltic and would be quite challenging to intercept. A fighter escort might not help much since massing fighters over the eastern coast of the Baltic might serve as more of a warning to Sweden. As opposed to Backfires going feet wet over the Baltic at >M1.0, flying ~150-200 km into the Baltic and launching ( less than 10 minutes from feet wet to launch with the intercepting fighters having to fly ~150-200 km into the Baltic for the intercept - no small feat!).

 

It's no wonder that Sweden trained for dispersion of their airfields. Dealing with missiles launched at long range from a supersonic aircraft is a tough problem to deal with. Certainly the USN thought so!

 

-Nick

Posted
Even though these IAP units didn't have the range to effectively operate over Sweden, it would seem that they could still screen these bomber formations. Backfires and Badgers would probably launch their cruise missiles from the middle of the Baltic (200-300 km from their targets). The IAP units probably did have enough fuel to screen and try to deter Swedish fighters over the Baltic. Though even without escorting fighters, those Backfires would probably be moving at high speed over the Baltic and would be quite challenging to intercept. A fighter escort might not help much since massing fighters over the eastern coast of the Baltic might serve as more of a warning to Sweden. As opposed to Backfires going feet wet over the Baltic at >M1.0, flying ~150-200 km into the Baltic and launching ( less than 10 minutes from feet wet to launch with the intercepting fighters having to fly ~150-200 km into the Baltic for the intercept - no small feat!).

 

It's no wonder that Sweden trained for dispersion of their airfields. Dealing with missiles launched at long range from a supersonic aircraft is a tough problem to deal with. Certainly the USN thought so!

 

-Nick

 

Hm... yes, I assume much of the Soviet plan was depending on an air superiority situation in an early phase of the conflict. And that would be achieved with the element of surprise, spetznas and (cruise) missiles.

 

When it comes to combat range I guess the Su-24's could do attack runs on Gotland. But before going inland they would need Gotland secured... (It makes a lot of sense naming that island the biggest carrier in the Baltic)

Until then the only air support would be from choppers more or less?

Posted
I found information about Kiev actually was in the Baltic sea during Zapad-81 as a flag ship. That exercise could have turned in to a full scale attack in a short notice... So, plausible perhaps? :)

 

Nice find.

 

So, aren't there any aircrafts that would escort the Badgers, Blinders and Fencers?

 

According to the database of the game CMNAO, Kh-22MA missile was introduced for the Blinder and Backfire in 1976. It has a 950 kg conventional warhead, INS + TERCOM guidance and a CEP of 150 m. Kh-22NA was introduced in 1983 for the Backfire with an improved CEP of 30 m. Both missiles have a range of 300 NM. Against Stockholm, this is allows a launch at the Russia-Estonia border. Against Gotland, a launch is possible at the Belarus-Lithuania border! An interception of the missile carriers by the Swedish Air Force is next to impossible. Moreover, each Badger, Blinder and Backfire regiment was organized into two bomber squadrons and one electronic warfare squadron. So a dedicated escort jammer was available for each 5 missile carrying aircraft.

 

The Fencers would have gone in unescorted I assume. Flying at night and at very low altitude would have provided them a high degree of protection (just like the USAF F-111).

Posted
If we are getting an appropriate map, I am planning to create a dynamic campaign for the Viggen. It will be about a Soviet invasion of Sweden in the 1980s (in the context of a global East-West war, exact year to be determined) and is divided into two phases.

 

Phase one: Soviet airstrikes on the Swedish air force in order to gain air superiority for an amphibious operation. The AJ37 will be employed as auxiliary fighter in air defense missions. Soviet fighter-bomber and bomber units deployed in the Baltic republics and Kaliningrad were primary equipped with Su-24, Su-17 and MiG-27 (there was one MiG-21 regiment near Riga). Most fighter units in the area were PVO (Su-15 and MiG-23, first Su-27 in 1987). I do not think they would have been used for offensive missions and would have been retained for territorial defense (which might include air defense for the Baltic Fleet when deployed). Only one VVS fighter regiment in Latvia with MiG-23M (MiG-29 from 1985) for offensive missions in the area. Occasional Tu-22M missile strikes from Long Range Aviation units. Swedish primary goal is to preserve its air force strength.

 

Phase two: Soviet invasion fleet crosses the Baltic for amphibious landing in Sweden. PVO fighter units provide air defense for the fleet. AJ37 fulfills its reason for existence with anti-ship strikes.

 

Can't wait! I loved your MiG 21 campaign

Posted

The Kiev and the Forger sou ds cool, but we lack both of them. The same happens with the Su15, updated MiG23's...

I don't understand anything in russian except Davai Davai!

Posted

Mbot, the old IMINT & Analysis blog have a KMZ to Google earth show the worldwide Sam Sites, surely hava very useful to your plans (the bad part has outdated to 2013).

http://geimint.blogspot.com.es/2008/06/worldwide-sam-site-overview.html

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Posted

Viggen is announced i can go here.

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Posted

I guess the most swedish people in here already seen this but maybe not so many others. Too bad it is in swedish but maybe it can be of some interest anyway?

 

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Posted

maybe I missed it: is the Viggen SEAD capable? domestic or US/NATO weapons?

:pilotfly:

 

Warthog HOTAS, Saitek Pedals, Oculus Rift

 

:joystick:

Posted

It was an interesting video Kilrah. I understood quite a bit of it, though there were some of the words I weren't familiar with, but that doesn't matter.

It brought me back to the times when we used Draken in Denmark, and they would overfly my parents house at least a couple of times a week. I could hear them from a long ways off, so I would rush out and climb on the roof of our house to see them better.

 

Many years later, I met my, now, fiancé, whose father was an electronics mechanic on Draken until the mid-80's.

He still has contacts on the base in Karup, and I was once invited over to view the Draken they have sitting in the museum, in airworthy state, called "The Queen".... and I tried the pit on for size. No wonder their max pilot height requirements were so low, when it was designed for midgets :D (I'm 1,89m). I could get in there alright, but it was nowhere near comfortable, and I don't think I could close the canopy without laying my head "on my shoulders" :)

Posted
maybe I missed it: is the Viggen SEAD capable? domestic or US/NATO weapons?

 

Nope, at least not if you mean the capability to carry HARMs if you say SEAD. It can not carry any anti-radiation missiles to my knowledge.

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Posted
Nope, at least not if you mean the capability to carry HARMs if you say SEAD. It can not carry any anti-radiation missiles to my knowledge.

 

Well, the BK90 would do the job if you know the approximate target position :thumbup:

Posted
maybe I missed it: is the Viggen SEAD capable? domestic or US/NATO weapons?

 

 

It isn't SEAD capable. Most of the weapons are domestic weapons developed by SAAB and other Swedish companies. It does use a modified version of the American AIM-9 that was only used in Sweden to my knowledge, but the differences are small. If I'm not mistaken the BK90 is developed in collaboration with Germany. It also carries maverick missiles. All of the other weapons are Swedish.

Posted
It isn't SEAD capable. Most of the weapons are domestic weapons developed by SAAB and other Swedish companies. It does use a modified version of the American AIM-9 that was only used in Sweden to my knowledge, but the differences are small. If I'm not mistaken the BK90 is developed in collaboration with Germany. It also carries maverick missiles. All of the other weapons are Swedish.

 

You say that, but screaming over tree tops at over mach one with bombs in tow is all the SEAD you'll never need. In fact, you may call it a Need for SEAD. 3. Viggen Pursuit.

  • Like 2

Reformers hate him! This one weird trick found by a bush pilot will make gunfighter obsessed old farts angry at your multi-role carrier deck line up!

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