Removed

[SCU]

I suppose that nomdeplume and uke are right. As much as it's annoying and slightly stressful to not have updates for an extended time on what's not working properly, we should be expecting that on an early access/beta testing. After all these people are very busy with lots on their hands, like the consolidation of 1.5 & 2.0, NTTR expansion, Caucasus map upgrade and the F/A-18 to say the least, which are pretty huge undertakings by themselves.

[TomCatMucDe]

I think people underestimate how much work is involved in building, testing and packaging a release, and how much impact on their development plans it could have.

 

Also if they're going to drop what they're doing and make a special release to fix a minor mistake on Razbam's part, shouldn't they also include fixes from other devs?

 

Anyway if you really care, you can always roll back to the previous version.

 

But really.. "can't take off properly" is a pretty minor bug for a module that's still in heavy development.

 

On the other hand, the longer they go between updates the more excited I get, so it's probably better for my heart if they release more often. :D

 

 

 

This post should be sticky! Thank you!

[Whisper]

The take off/landing is in no way impossible right now, just a matter of keeping the bird straight soon enough with brakes/rudder. So the module is not broken, albeit buggy on take off.

Since it's still a beta and ED has big changes on the engine in parallel incoming, it's just sensible they don't want to break everything.

If the magic radar bug was still there, I wouldn't say the same thing probably, but right now the M2K is in a useable shape, so it's not a bad time for ED to pause things and push big updates ..... if that's the actual cause of the lack of patches for 2 weeks

[Kaszub]

I think people underestimate how much work is involved in building, testing and packaging a release, and how much impact on their development plans it could have.

 

But really.. "can't take off properly" is a pretty minor bug for a module that's still in heavy development.

 

 

I understand how hard it is to make a module. What I don't understand is why every update fix stuff and brake at the same time.

 

As nomdeplume just hinted at, the Mirage is still in Early Access. Bugs and regressions are to be expected. It's unfortunate but it comes with the territory. If that's unacceptable to you, the solution is to wait until a module's final release to assess its quality and decide whether to buy it or not (and even then, future updates from ED are liable to break things)... Software development, yay! :doh:

 

I understand what "early access" means. Still, what you said doesn't have any connection to what I said.

 

 

I suppose that nomdeplume and uke are right. As much as it's annoying and slightly stressful to not have updates for an extended time on what's not working properly, we should be expecting that on an early access/beta testing. After all these people are very busy with lots on their hands, like the consolidation of 1.5 & 2.0, NTTR expansion, Caucasus map upgrade and the F/A-18 to say the least, which are pretty huge undertakings by themselves.

 

As I said, the problem isn't with frequency of the updates, but in quality of them. I know they are busy, but as a consumer, it's not my problem. They chose to make 10 projects at the same time, not me. And as a consumer I guess I have a right to say that I'm disappointed about the current state of things. I care about the module, or even the whole DCS and that's why I pushed myself to write on this forum. Aside from bugs, this module, after A-10C is the most interesting experience I have in DCS.

[TomCatMucDe]

I understand how hard it is to make a module. What I don't understand is why every update fix stuff and brake at the same time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I understand what "early access" means. Still, what you said doesn't have any connection to what I said.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As I said, the problem isn't with frequency of the updates, but in quality of them. I know they are busy, but as a consumer, it's not my problem. They chose to make 10 projects at the same time, not me. And as a consumer I guess I have a right to say that I'm disappointed about the current state of things. I care about the module, or even the whole DCS and that's why I pushed myself to write on this forum. Aside from bugs, this module, after A-10C is the most interesting experience I have in DCS.

 

 

 

Dude, if you are not willing to be patient with Razbam and don't want to understand that coding can bring fixes along with with bugs, you can revert to an older version.

[microvax]

I understand how hard it is to make a module. What I don't understand is why every update fix stuff and brake at the same time.

 

Programming TM. No joke that is an normal problem of software if its more complex then the one in your alarm clock.

[Kaszub]

Dude, if you are not willing to be patient with Razbam and don't want to understand that coding can bring fixes along with with bugs, you can revert to an older version.

Programming TM. No joke that is an normal problem of software if its more complex then the one in your alarm clock.

 

"Dudes", I'm tired of repeating myself: I got it. It's hard, mistakes sometimes happens. My question is: What happend with the testing part? Why the patches are not available in open beta first? Then, if everything is ok, it should go for the release version.

[iVVChewy9141VVi]

Honestly, I don't understand your question at all. Fixes and added features will be available when they wish to make them available. Be patient. That's the whole part of the open beta and alpha of these aircraft. If you don't have the patients to wait for fixes that might cause other bugs that need to be fixed then I suggest you stay away from these early access aircraft.

 

They release on there own time table. They are not going to release a fix for one small thing today and one small thing tomorrow. If there is a Major game breaking bug and they have a fix for it then I would say without a doubt they will release that fix.

 

Like a stated Early Access equals Bugs and certain features not in the aircraft. If your not into this please skip out on early access.

 

In no way am I trying to sound nasty in this statement. Just want you to understand early access aircraft "can" be buggy and annoying sometimes.

[jojo]

"Dudes", I'm tired of repeating myself: I got it. It's hard, mistakes sometimes happens. My question is: What happend with the testing part? Why the patches are not available in open beta first? Then, if everything is ok, it should go for the release version.

 

Because Razbam (any 3rd party) doesn't decide which version is updated and when.

So they give the latest development to the last update on any version.

Currently "Stable release 1.5" "Open Beta 1.5" "Open Alpha 2.0".

 

And you never know what will be updated next...

[Kaszub]

Because Razbam (any 3rd party) doesn't decide which version is updated and when.

So they give the latest development to the last update on any version.

Currently "Stable release 1.5" "Open Beta 1.5" "Open Alpha 2.0".

 

And you never know what will be updated next...

 

Thank you for answering my question. You are the first one who did that here without telling me, how wrong I am, how everything is fine and basically it will be the best if I just keep silent.

 

So the problem lies on ED side. Razbam just made a mistake(which happens), but there is no system, where such things could be caught before being put into the update's installer. In my opinion, this is a serious issue, which has to be corrected because if not, more situations like that will happen in the future.

[hollowman8904]

Thank you for answering my question. You are the first one who did that here without telling me, how wrong I am, how everything is fine and basically it will be the best if I just keep silent.

 

So the problem lies on ED side. Razbam just made a mistake(which happens), but there is no system, where such things could be caught before being put into the update's installer. In my opinion, this is a serious issue, which has to be corrected because if not, more situations like that will happen in the future.

 

I agree. Mistakes happen, but it highlights the need for a system. The fact that deployments are happening right from a dev's laptop is a big red flag. Perhaps RAZBAM should investigate using a continuous integration platform with automated testing to ensure only good code is released in the future.

 

Obviously, I have no idea how DCS is architected, but maybe ED needs to be the one spearheading this effort and providing a means of integration testing for 3rd party modules as well to ensure compatibility with new versions of the engine.

 

That said, I think the module is amazing and my favorite so far. It's just makes me sad when progress goes the wrong direction and it takes a long time to see a fix (even if we are just waiting on ED to release it).

Edited September 3, 2016 by hollowman8904

[jojo]

I think it's a problem to wait for DCS World engine update to update 3rd parties modules.

The calendar aren't the same.

 

But it's ED's management...

[Davee]

I agree. Mistakes happen, but it highlights the need for a system. The fact that deployments are happening right from a dev's laptop is a big red flag. Perhaps RAZBAM should investigate using a continuous integration platform with automated testing to ensure only good code is released in the future.

 

Obviously, I have no idea how DCS is architected, but maybe ED needs to be the one spearheading this effort and providing a means of integration testing for 3rd party modules as well to ensure compatibility with new versions of the engine.

 

That said, I think the module is amazing and my favorite so far. It's just makes me sad when progress goes the wrong direction and it takes a long time to see a fix (even if we are just waiting on ED to release it).

 

 

+1 This in Spades!

Project Management at its best is required between all parties.

[Askerov24]

I am expecting large changes. When ED skips a weekly update or two, it usually is because a major change is forthcoming and they don't want to incorporate any sim breaking bug and thus are being very cautious.

 

:) I hope so. Well, we'll see

[TomCatMucDe]

Thank you for answering my question. You are the first one who did that here without telling me, how wrong I am, how everything is fine and basically it will be the best if I just keep silent.

 

 

 

Zeus and Cptsmiley are programming by themselves. One is in Ecuador the other is in the US. Expect those problems to happen again. I strongly doubt that there will be expensive automated testing.

 

So again, if an update breaks your game, revert to an older version.

 

Razbam could have not released the mirage at all like Leatherneck do with the Viggen. I can guarantee you that internally when they fix something in the Viggen they break other things. Simply there is nobody to complain.

 

So just be thankful that you have something in your hands at all. Actually the Mirage has minor bugs now.

Edited September 3, 2016 by TomCatMucDe

[myHelljumper]

Zeus and Cptsmiley are programming by themselves. One is in Ecuador the other is in the US. Expect those problems to happen again. I strongly doubt that there will be expensive automated testing.

 

So again, if an update break your game, revert to an older version.

 

Razbam could have released the mirage at all like Leatherneck do with the Viggen. I can guarantee to you that internally when they fix something in the Viggen to they break other things. Simply there is nobody to complain.

 

So just be thankful that you have something in your hands at all. Actually the Mirage has minor bugs now.

 

Very true !!

[Kaszub]

Zeus and Cptsmiley are programming by themselves. One is in Ecuador the other is in the US. Expect those problems to happen again. I strongly doubt that there will be expensive automated testing.

 

I might sound a little bit too harsh(it's just for you, not Razbam), but...from a consumer standpoint, why should I care? Nobody is asking me how hard I have to work at my job to get money for these modules.

 

So again, if an update breaks your game, revert to an older version.

 

Razbam could have not released the mirage at all like Leatherneck do with the Viggen. I can guarantee you that internally when they fix something in the Viggen they break other things. Simply there is nobody to complain.

 

So just be thankful that you have something in your hands at all. Actually the Mirage has minor bugs now.

 

It was Razbam's decision to release Mirage when it happend, not yours, not mine, not Leatherneck's. I doesn't change the fact, that they have to deal with the consequences whatever they are/will be. Besides, did you read my and other users posts? I said it is not entire their fault, rather ED's because there is no system to prevent it from happening.

 

I'm glad, that they made Mirage because I'm all in 4th generation fighters and it's a nice looking plane, but you are not the person to tell me what I should do with this fact. Your idea about going back to previous versions I will leave without comment. I only say they are bugged too(super radar bug, not firing magics bug, iff bug, list go on).

[Davee]

I might sound a little bit too harsh(it's just for you, not Razbam), but...from a consumer standpoint, why should I care? Nobody is asking me how hard I have to work at my job to get money for these modules.

.

 

This is a standard issue faced by most manufacturers in a consumer driven economy. The consumer does not care what the issues are - period. They just want a working product in their hands and not one broken on receipt.

 

As an IT Major Project Manager, I was measured by "deliverables" - nothing else. No explanations, no excuses - just results, on time and on or under budget.

 

I support Kaszub's reference of a process between third party developers and ED requiring a form of mitigating errors prior to downloading and also a methodology for timely correction being delivered should an error make it through. Even in the early delivery aircraft.

 

RAZBAM appear to be quite efficient at correcting issues pointed out by the consumer, however, this really should be caught prior to downloading. And, just an aside - even though I paid for early delivery . . . I'm not so sure it involved beta testing. :)

[TomCatMucDe]

I might sound a little bit too harsh(it's just for you, not Razbam), but...from a consumer standpoint, why should I care? Nobody is asking me how hard I have to work at my job to get money for these modules.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It was Razbam's decision to release Mirage when it happend, not yours, not mine, not Leatherneck's. I doesn't change the fact, that they have to deal with the consequences whatever they are/will be. Besides, did you read my and other users posts? I said it is not entire their fault, rather ED's because there is no system to prevent it from happening.

 

 

 

I'm glad, that they made Mirage because I'm all in 4th generation fighters and it's a nice looking plane, but you are not the person to tell me what I should do with this fact. Your idea about going back to previous versions I will leave without comment. I only say they are bugged too(super radar bug, not firing magics bug, iff bug, list go on).

 

 

 

You jumped in a bit late. A year ago we begged Razbam to release the unfinished Mirage and as beta testers we understood the risks and expected this very normal situation. We didn't want to wait like we have with other devs. If this situation doesn't suit you, fine. Do as if Razbam didn't release this "EARLY version" and wait for the final product. Just imagine that they didn't release it yet.

 

I think the rest of the simmers here dont want to pay for the ranting and impatience of some. We want Razbam to continue with this policy.

[nomdeplume]

I think it's more of an issue with labeling the product, and setting expectations. I think Catseye's comment highlights that: even though I paid for early delivery . . . I'm not so sure it involved beta testing.

Anyone familiar with previous 'open beta' modules has a reasonable expectation that they're playable. This perception has only been enhanced by ED's decision to refer to them as 'early access' rather than even mentioning the b-word.

 

Razbam's model is quite different to this, so people expecting a game they can just play are disappointed whenever something breaks. Even though things breaking is entirely expected and unavoidable given the state of the module and its release process.

 

I think refering to it as a "development snapshot" rather than "early access" would help a lot, so people know what they're getting. Alternatively, ED could mandate that modules can only be made available for early access when they're practically complete and any updates must receive extensive testing. That would simply mean the M-2000C module would not be available yet.

 

Given how much both the customers and Razbam seem to have benefited from having the module available in such an early state, with a very fast update-feedback-update cycle, I'm inclined to think that refusing developers to have their modules available until they're "nearly finished" would be a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

So I think the best strategy would be to have better labels to more clearly indicate what people can expect from each module in its current state; and those that just want to play the game can understand that the module cannot be expected to be "playable" at any given time.

[TomCatMucDe]

Hence the "early access" mention

[Azrayen]

Hence the "early access" mention

 

That should sum it all.

 

Now, guys, whatever your thinking on the issue... this thread is about M-2000C Pending Update Fix List, not Do I like the way ED & 3rd parties manage updates & bug fixing.

 

And it's already a long thread with lots of useful informations to read/keep in mind; as such, digressions are a bit tedious IMO. Would you kindly (pretty please) stay on topic? :)

 

Thanks in advance. :thumbup:

 

++

Az'

[Whisper]

I might sound a little bit too harsh(it's just for you, not Razbam), but...from a consumer standpoint, why should I care? Nobody is asking me how hard I have to work at my job to get money for these modules.

Product is still in development, if you don't want to care with the development process of a module (process which includes bugs and such, and does NOT include customer care), then don't get involved in the development process and wait for the finished product.

 

 

It was Razbam's decision to release Mirage when it happend, not yours, not mine, not Leatherneck's.

And it's YOUR decision to pay money while the Mirage is still in development. Don't blame them for your impatience.

 

I cannot stress it enough, in the end, you are simply participating in an ongoing modelling/texturing/coding project, and all you see (bugs appearing, things seemingly going worse, etc....) is a normal thing in a product development life cycle.

If it's too bothersome for you, which I can perfectly understand, buy finished products only.

 

EDIT : Dammit, didn't read the end of thread before writing. Sorry Azrayen, you're right... @Kaszub, if you want to go further in the discussion, we'll go the PM way :)

Edited September 5, 2016 by Whisper

[BIGNEWY]

guys you are off topic again.

 

as suggested take it to pm's if you wish.

 

Topic is M-2000C Pending Update Fix List

 

please try and stick to it

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

Not a problem smiley. Keep at it and let us know how things progress.

 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk