Mirage 2000C A2A combat

[T0x1s]

Hello

 

How do you use the Mirage in the most effective way in pure A2A combat?

 

As a noob dogfighter when it comes to jet and missiles I would appreciate every tip for both offensive and defensive such as avoiding missiles. I know how to use the systems(however I dont know what the range are for the S30 and where can you see the range of enemy planes on the radar?) but need help with just how to act in combat since I get shot down every time as soon the enemy got missiles :joystick:

 

I have been sticking to mostly ground combat but I would like to get better with my A2A skills especially for the Mirage since its an amazing A2A plane :)

 

Regards

T0x1s

[Zeus67]

Pay attention to your RWR. When it is buzzing you are in somebody's crosshair.

 

The M-2000C likes altitude and speed. It is not a weed wacker hiding in the bushes. It is a falcon looking for prey below him.

 

Learn how to maneuver it without losing both energy, something it can do atonishingly fast on hard turns, nor your conciousness. You can pile up the Gs so fast that many times you flirt with black out.

 

Do NOT try to out turn an opponent, you will lose energy. The split-S is your friend here.

[mattebubben]

:thumbup:While the M-2000C might like altitude Zeus i humbly suggest it probably does better amongst terrain against opponents like the F-15 or Su-27 that have superior range and much larger loadouts.

 

Since they will be able to throw 2-4 missiles at you before you are even in fiering range.

 

If you are able to catch somone off guard at high altitude sure but against an alert opponent it would probably be better to get closer by using terrain (wich means staying llow) since that will let you get close without being fired at and as such reducing some of the advantages a heavy fighter like F-15 or Su-27 would have over you.

 

But then again thats just my humble opinion =P

[Paradox]

Right so this reminds me. Why exactly *do* the French do so many very low level CAPs?

[Zeus67]

:thumbup:While the M-2000C might like altitude Zeus i humbly suggest it probably does better amongst terrain against opponents like the F-15 or Su-27 that have superior range and much larger loadouts.

 

Since they will be able to throw 2-4 missiles at you before you are even in fiering range.

 

If you are able to catch somone off guard at high altitude sure but against an alert opponent it would probably be better to get closer by using terrain (wich means staying llow) since that will let you get close without being fired at and as such reducing some of the advantages a heavy fighter like F-15 or Su-27 would have over you.

 

But then again thats just my humble opinion =P

 

Yes, Prowler found on its tests that the M-2000C's strenghts, altitude and speed, turned into disadvantages against these two when they have their long range teeth. Otherwise, they are more fodder to the M-2000C's teeth.

[shagrat]

At the moment the S530D has a NEZ of about 6nm, may be 8nm at best, I tried today against a Yak-40 and actually I always needed 2 S530D, because the 1st, shot at about 7.5nm was a miss!

I'm definitely no expert on missiles, but it looks like a pretty "short ranged" medium range SARH missile?

If this is how the real missiles work and perform, the M-2000C should go up really high and try to optimize range for the missile... Against an F-15C or Su-27, though you will most likely, never get a ranged shot with stable radar lock?

How did real Mirage pilots engage e.g. F-4E or say Mig-21/Mig-23?

 

Really high as close as 6nm?

[dartuil]

Seems like 530D range is less than 15nm at 10.000ft. You have to go high to shoot far away thing that make you a easy target for su-27 and F-15 that have r-27 and aim-120.

As Zeus said 530 is maid to shoot bombers that arent very manœuvrable targets. I often miss the su-27.

[AussieGhost789]

At the moment the S530D has a NEZ of about 6nm, may be 8nm at best, I tried today against a Yak-40 and actually I always needed 2 S530D, because the 1st, shot at about 7.5nm was a miss!

I'm definitely no expert on missiles, but it looks like a pretty "short ranged" medium range SARH missile?

If this is how the real missiles work and perform, the M-2000C should go up really high and try to optimize range for the missile... Against an F-15C or Su-27, though you will most likely, never get a ranged shot with stable radar lock?

How did real Mirage pilots engage e.g. F-4E or say Mig-21/Mig-23?

 

Really high as close as 6nm?

 

The thing is, if you go high to increase range then your opponents are also going to get increased range on their missiles when firing at you. It's a two way street. Sure, the high guy gets a bit of an advantage in that situation, but when your opponent (at least in MP) is likely to be an Eagle or Flanker, they're still most likely going to out range you.

[TomCatMucDe]

Do NOT try to out turn an opponent, you will lose energy. The split-S is your friend here.

 

 

Really? But it has a very good instant turn rate, shouldn't we use it in our advantage ?

[PiedDroit]

Really? But it has a very good instant turn rate, shouldn't we use it in our advantage ?

My guess is that this instant turn will bleed lots of energy, so if that turn doesn't result in a sure kill, this might put you at a disavantage.

If you have excess energy then I suppose it's OK to use it to avoid overshoot and get a good rear quarter position.

[Home Fries]

Really? But it has a very good instant turn rate, shouldn't we use it in our advantage ?

Consider it a tool in the toolbox: there if you need it, but it may not be the best tool for the situation.

 

In general, if you're offensive or neutral, then you should ideally maintain corner airspeed. The instantaneous turn rate is if you're defensive and trying to create BFM problems for your opponent. At that point, you sell out to defeat your enemy's offensive position.

 

Of course, these are general rules, and every situation is fluid. I might be more inclined for the instantaneous turn in an offensive situation if I need to stop the fight quickly (example: stopping a bandit from going offensive on wingman), but you just have to remember that since you're selling out your energy for the maneuver, you won't have many options available until you build back your energy state.

[Zeus67]

This is a TacView video of Prowler tackling a Su-27. He cheated since he deprived the Su-27 of its long range missiles. But you can see how near the end he placed himself in very low energy state when trying to outturn a SU-27.

 

[Zeus67]

This is a TacView of Prowler going against Mig-29As.

 

In all his test flights, he flew as high as he could before pouncing on his targets.

[Zeus67]

This one is against F-16. The pilot is Prowler.

 

[Nealius]

As Zeus said 530 is maid to shoot bombers that arent very manœuvrable targets. I often miss the su-27.

 

I've been getting about a 50% hit ratio against Tu-95s after giving him 0 chaff to work with.

[Slipp]

I've been getting about a 50% hit ratio against Tu-95s after giving him 0 chaff to work with.

 

Something is very wrong with the Super 530D.

Needs more work. :)

[OnlyforDCS]

Seems like 530D range is less than 15nm at 10.000ft. You have to go high to shoot far away thing that make you a easy target for su-27 and F-15 that have r-27 and aim-120.

As Zeus said 530 is maid to shoot bombers that arent very manœuvrable targets. I often miss the su-27.

 

When was the last time you shot an Aim120C or a 27ER? Or even an Aim7 or 27R (comparable to the Super530D). 15nm is a LOT of range for a medium range missile in DCS. I hardly ever get a reasonable pk firing solution for an Aim120C at that range.

[Drona]

The M2000C, when put against good and alert Su27, F15 drivers, just don't stand a chance. If the Mirage goes high, he's at a disadvantage because Su27/F15 missiles out range it and will get a first shot advantage, if the M2000C goes low/mountains/notch, it may be able to draw the Su27/F15 to a knife fight, which the Su27/F15 will most probably win. So, the best way to use the Mirage right now would be surprise attacks and such or in a pinpoint ground strike role.

[OnlyforDCS]

Like dartuil said, the mirage was not a hard counter to an air superiority fighter like the Su27 or the F15C, in any situation where you have to face off against a Su27 or F15C who has situational awareness of you, you need to turn and run, let alone against two or more of them. The M2000C was designed as an interceptor first and foremost, and a fighter in a secondary role. It's a pretty good fighter and should be able to hold its own against the F16A or the Mig29A and such but should really be used to bring down enemy attack planes or bombers.

[Fab]

The Jammer on the Mirage is so strong, that the 120 shouldent have a chanse...

[Hook47]

While I had envisioned taking on opponents at higher altitudes like Zeus described, I am quickly discovering that I tend to have the most success flying the M-2000C like a more advanced MiG 21 down in the weeds. I cannot understate the disadvantage the M-2000C has in both load out and energy management against its air superiority counterparts. Furthermore it's BVR 530D appears to be inferior to the Aim 120C, R-27ER and the R-77.

 

The M-2000 will get it's butt handed to it if it confronts a F-15, SU-27, or even MiG 29 in their elements. I would recommend keeping low, fast, and wait for very good opportunities to take one of those 4 missile shots. They go quick, and your enemy (even including the MiG 21) is likely to have twice as many.

 

As I predicted, due to both energy management and the way the M-2000C handles FBW AoA and G limitations, the M-2000Cs published ITR and STR are something of a hallow advantage, since the aircraft does indeed loose energy quickly, and does not hold a significant enough advantage over it's competitors to make victory in the merge easy.

 

This is just my experience so far, but after clocking many hours in the Mirage, and a few against it, I would recommend keeping low and flying like a opportunist.

 

I sure love this plane, and I welcome the challenge it brings to fly online (it is certainly easier to get victories with than the MiG 21, which I have had success with) but I have to admit I would LOVE the option for dual Magic II pylons or even another 530D or two, assuming this could have been done in real life, I do not think it would at all be an unreasonable departure from reality, just like the addition of the ARMAT would bring awesome new missions. I am sure some people may flip out at the mere suggestion...

Edited December 29, 2015 by Hook47

[jojo]

I mostly think that we can't draw definitive conclusions on M-2000 capabilities with first beta release.

- beta weapon

- beta weapon system (incomplete)

 

Of course Fox 1 is difficult Vs Fox 3.

 

And currently SARH missiles have a lot of difficulties Vs Chaffs (even R-27ER) in DCS World...

[Croaker47]

The Jammer on the Mirage is so strong, that the 120 shouldent have a chanse...

 

From what I can gather, jammers are far more effective at longer range. If they get close enough for burnthrough, you have a problem. If they Home on Jam, it's a bit like dealing with a Fox 1 (Pure Pursuit, depending on your angle), but you deny it range, so it'll home on the signal until it rams it, I suppose. I don't know the jammer's FOV, so to speak, but I can guess that at shorter ranges, it'll be difficult to keep the jammer on the missile and target, especially if you are using the high power setting, and have no Radar confirmation. I forget if an AIM-120's HOJ is F&F, or if it still needs jammer illumination from its carrier (Presuming I know a single thing about how any of that begins to work).

[Hook47]

I mostly think that we can't draw definitive conclusions on M-2000 capabilities with first beta release.

- beta weapon

- beta weapon system (incomplete)

 

Of course Fox 1 is difficult Vs Fox 3.

 

And currently SARH missiles have a lot of difficulties Vs Chaffs (even R-27ER) in DCS World...

 

Frankly, I think we can. Even a massive boost to the effectiveness of the 530D wouldn't change my experience, which has been heavily influenced by the load out limitations of this bird. You are simply in trouble with you got two, and your opponent has 4 or more! The systems left over (IFF, INU, Radar Seeker slaving, etc.) are not enough to significantly change the combat performance of this aircraft, and if anything, the performance capabilities of the engine and flight model are going to be reduced! There are some issues with the TWW ratio, particularly at higher altitudes. I am pretty sure future adjustments will bring it back to it's published range, where it cannot compete in the vertical with any other fighter currently in the sim (Even including the MiG 21 in EAB)

 

I love the plane, but any illusion of if going toe to toe with even the Fulcrum have been laid to rest in my mind. It lies between the MiG 21 and MiG 29 in the fighter food chain, IMO, all things being equal.

 

That being said, it is a pilot's airplane, extremely enjoyable to use, and I love a underdog challenge!

Edited December 29, 2015 by Hook47

[jojo]

and if anything, the performance capabilities of the engine and flight model are going to be reduced!

 

It depends on areas, sustain turn rate have to be improved to stick to the chart.

 

any illusion of if going toe to toe with even the Fulcrum have been laid to rest in my mind. It lies between the MiG 21 and MiG 29 in the fighter food chain

 

With corrected Super 530D, thanks to jammer you'll get first shot to put MiG 29A on defensive...