[REPORTED] Model Visibility Issues

[SharpeXB]

Yes and that is a system needs to be improved.

Well there is no way to improve the concept of FOV. It's the reality of a 3D world seen on a 2D screen. It's universal to all 3D games and flight sims. The best option if you've got an axis to assign is put the zoom view on it so you can rapidly zoom in and out. SA means constantly changing your FOV on the fly.

ED already added Model Enlargement but a real culprit here is rendering quality, contrast, color range etc. Size by itself doesn't always help.

 

Smart Scaling solves both.

You guys keep bringing up this "Smart Scaling" but probably many people including me, don't know how this is any different than what ED has done. If it involves actually making the 3D models larger, this can't be done in DCS from what I've heard because that would affect the planes radar cross section in the game. Hence why sprites are used instead.

Edited October 10, 2016 by SharpeXB

[chihirobelmo]

You guys keep bringing up this "Smart Scaling" but probably many people including me, don't know how this is any different than what ED has done.

 

Then I have to quote how Smart Scaling and Model Enlargement works. They have totally different ideas.

 

Smart Scaling is based on this academic paper.

Improving Target Orientation Discrimination Performance in Air-to-Air Flight Simulation

 

I wrote about it before at this thread.

 

According to the BMS manual and the referenced paper, Their object magnification even starts at 0.7 miles close.

 

[ATTACH]138424[/ATTACH]

 

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This is because the paper did not only focused on the average detection range of the real pilots, but they also focused on how often the pilots correctly identified the attitude of the target, so that the training with flight simulator become as same as actual flying.

 

[ATTACH]138426[/ATTACH]

 

 

So it magnifies model drawn size depend on its distance.

 

and REDUCES model size reduction.

(Graph by Serfoss 2003 p. 24)

 

why485 described about Model Enlargement.

 

When an impostor is drawn, the model behind it stops being drawn and a sprite of the model is instead drawn on top of it. Hence the name impostor. It's a "fake" stand in for the real model.

For the record, there is no fixed distance at which impostors start drawing. The distance they draw is determined by the pixel size of the fighter. For example with medium settings, the model switches to an impostor when it takes up 8 pixels. As this is basically a measurement of the objects apparent size, the exact distance that it turns into an impostor varies based on the targets aspect (when head on, a target takes up less pixels, thus would switch closer), true size (a B-52 switches much further than an F-5), and screen resolution (the higher your resolution, the further the switch occurs).

 

Model Enlargement STOPS model drawn size reduction but only when it already becomes tiny enough on the screen.

 

So in FOV 60 settings, clear sky, looking at the Jet fighter...

 

With Smart Scaling on, an aircraft drawn size reduces continuously until its distance reaches around 4.0-4.5nm, becomes a tiny dot at that distance and disappears in further distance.

 

Without Smart Scaling, an aircraft drawn size reduces continuously until its distance reaches around 1.0-1.5nm, becomes a tiny dot at that distance and disappears in further distance.

 

With Model Enlargement, an aircraft drawn size reduces continuously until its distance reaches 1.0-1.5nm, becomes a tiny dot at that distance. Then sim keeps drawing its tiny "dots"(because it has replaced to the imposter) even it reaches 30nm away.

 

Here is a comparison video I posted on twitter a month ago (have not been uploaded to youtube until today).

 

If it involves actually making the 3D models larger, this can't be done in DCS from what I've heard because that would affect the planes radar cross section in the game. Hence why sprites are used instead.

 

Actually it only "draws" 3D model larger, no need to "make" 3D model larger.

Edited October 11, 2016 by chihirobelmo

[Talisman_VR]

Well there is no way to improve the concept of FOV. It's the reality of a 3D world seen on a 2D screen. It's universal to all 3D games and flight sims. The best option if you've got an axis to assign is put the zoom view on it so you can rapidly zoom in and out. SA means constantly changing your FOV on the fly.

ED already added Model Enlargement but a real culprit here is rendering quality, contrast, color range etc. Size by itself doesn't always help.

 

 

You guys keep bringing up this "Smart Scaling" but probably many people including me, don't know how this is any different than what ED has done. If it involves actually making the 3D models larger, this can't be done in DCS from what I've heard because that would affect the planes radar cross section in the game. Hence why sprites are used instead.

 

Regarding the "planes radar cross section in the game" comment. Sorry if I have got the wrong end of the stick, but would this be in reference to modern aircraft onboard radar systems?

If so, perhaps we would not have this problem in the Normandy map as we don't have the need for aircraft onboard radar systems in the WWII aircraft planned for the WWII project.

It would be great if the WWII project maps could be free of any problems associated with tying to replicate modern aircraft onboard radar systems; might enable more near to realistic air-to-air visibility of WII aircraft models on WWII maps (no need for sprites?).

Just a thought and a desperate hope for the possibility of better aircraft model viewing quality prospects for WWII 1940's maps.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

[GGTharos]

'Smart scaling', 'model enlargement' or whatever else you want to call it doesn't affect the RCS.

 

What it has historically done is make the radar redundant, because you can see contacts at such long ranges that you can just keep your radar quiet and 'dot hunt'.

 

It is simply a difficult problem to solve. Why485 has provided his own solution on top of ED's which I think is great, though I also believe it is exceedingly optimistic - personally I want to be able to guarantee seeing within 5nm if contrast and target aspect permits. This will work quite fine for BFM.

 

There are things that the game won't be able to do - for example you can spot large formations of aircraft quite far in RL, but the game cannot synthesize this visual effect.

 

Regarding the "planes radar cross section in the game" comment. Sorry if I have got the wrong end of the stick, but would this be in reference to modern aircraft onboard radar systems?

If so, perhaps we would not have this problem in the Normandy map as we don't have the need for aircraft onboard radar systems in the WWII aircraft planned for the WWII project.

It would be great if the WWII project maps could be free of any problems associated with tying to replicate modern aircraft onboard radar systems; might enable more near to realistic air-to-air visibility of WII aircraft models on WWII maps (no need for sprites?).

Just a thought and a desperate hope for the possibility of better aircraft model viewing quality prospects for WWII 1940's maps.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

[Schmidtfire]

I think the biggest issue is close in spotting < 5km. I don't know how many times I have lost sight of a bandit in the middle of a dogfight :cry: Some of this "vanishing" can probably be narrowed down to a mixture between fov and contrast at certain angles. Finding targets at a distance is of course also important, especially when trying to use a height advantage and "bounce down" on a bandt. I hope that 2.5 brings along further improvements.

[chihirobelmo]

Smart Scaling helps for close in spotting < 5km

Doesn't help to spot far distance aircraft.

Model Enlargement is for far placed aircraft spotting. >5km

Doesn't help for keep close target spotting and orientation discrimination.

 

they work like this. (in realistic FOV setting)

 

 

Actual graph might be exponential curve. Smart Scaling magnifies the model much more slightly.

This graph is only for discribing the idea of two methods.

 

So I think Why485's idea to combining those two, will be great idea.

Edited October 12, 2016 by chihirobelmo

[SharpeXB]

'Smart scaling', 'model enlargement' or whatever else you want to call it doesn't affect the RCS.

According to Wags, it does. That's what he says here at 2:50

 

[chihirobelmo]

Does RCS in DCS calculated from the model drawn size on the screen?

That's weird. If so, Model Enlargement already implemented in DCS also affects RCS. And even FOV affects RCS.

 

RCS must be calculated from the original 3D model size (or parameter value). "Model Enlargement" sprites or "Smart Scaling" magnified drawn aircraft can be calculated from the same original 3D model too, but RCS does not have to be calculated from already magnified (drawn) model nor imposters.

 

Both Model Enlargement and Smart Scaling are the matter of Rendering Methods. RCS must be calculated before rendering.

Edited October 12, 2016 by chihirobelmo

[GGTharos]

It has nothing to do with RCS in DCS. Listen to what he says after. RCS is absolutely not affected by the model size in DCS. Might have happened in some other sim which would be surprising, though the fuzing thing and collision model is bang on when you use smart scaling the way it has been used in some other places.

[chihirobelmo]

though the fuzing thing and collision model is bang on when you use smart scaling the way it has been used in some other places.

 

Smart Scaling also never affects collision model.

 

In FalconBMS I can see a ground placed aircraft sinks his gear slightly when I see him from 1.0-1.5nm distance due to the SmartScaling maginification.

However, if another guy lines up just next to the same aircraft same time, he see the aircraft with no magnification and the gear is not sinking to the ground anymore.

 

Here I see them from opposite side of the runway and see both aircraft's wingtips are touching to each other, but seen from them there wingtips are not touching to each other. Instead they see my aircraft is slightly sinking the gear to the ground, but the guy who will line up just next to me will never see my gears sink.

 

As I said it only magnifies how GPU draws the model, not actual model itself.

Edited October 12, 2016 by chihirobelmo

[GGTharos]

Sounds really ugly :)

[chihirobelmo]

True its ugly for distant groundops eyecandy but I take Realistic A-A combat experience than enjoying beautiful looking groundops at the opposite side of the airbase.

 

Effective in A-A combat, especially in tactical formation where you take 1.0nm-2.0nm spacing from lead called "WEZ in depth" formation, commit tactical turn and 2v2/2v1 ACM/BFM, keeping eye on both offensive lead aircraft and tally as a supportive fighter. No need to set narrow FOV and shake your head like radar antenna rotation, or abusing FOV slider which both makes onboard-video ugly.

 

RL pilots don't see skies through 85mm focal length lens during there Dogfight. They see skies with much wider FOV, but also be able to tally bandits and discriminate its orientation from its outline same time while we are able to do so only in narrow FOV(unless we enable something like smart scaling stuff).

Edited October 12, 2016 by chihirobelmo

[iLOVEwindmills]

Sounds really ugly :)

 

A worthy sacrifice to make things realistic.

[SharpeXB]

It has nothing to do with RCS in DCS.

Actually that does sound like exactly what he says:

 

"We really don't actually consider that (smart scaling) a smart option. All it really does is increases the LOD model. And when you increase the LOD model that also then results in larger RCSs, a larger object for objects to fuse on and so on."

 

That's all I've heard in the stream about that topic unless he brings it up later, it's an hour long video.

 

Here I see them from opposite side of the runway and see both aircraft's wingtips are touching to each other, but seen from them there wingtips are not touching to each other. Instead they see my aircraft is slightly sinking the gear to the ground, but the guy who will line up just next to me will never see my gears sink.

Unfortunately that does just sound really unattractive. Smart scaling was a solution from back in the day when games weren't graphically attractive to begin with. Look at how lovely the EDGE grahics and the NTTR is and you don't want to look at that and see awkward stuff like planes melting into each other. Whatever solution is arrived at should be invisible to the player, never so pronounced that they can actually perceive it. Model Enlargement should only come into play for very distant objects if at all.

 

If DCS had just a bit better shading, contrast, colors and reflections, ME woildnt be needed.

Edited October 12, 2016 by SharpeXB

[Schmidtfire]

Maybe things will change when 4k VR comes around... until then, I think that combining a slight smart scaling with model enlargement is the way to go. But it's probably hard to implement as an afterthought in the current DCS engine... Canopy and model reflections could be an answer. Or a color/gamma change of the model when viewed at certain distances.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Schmidtfire

[gavagai]

To be charitable we have to conclude that Wags made an honest mistake when he said that. I remember that remark, and how uncritically some took it as true that smart scaling changes the RCS because he said so.

[SharpeXB]

Maybe things will change when 4k VR comes around...

Not just 4K, 4K + HDR

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2888442&postcount=1

Every video device will follow this spec soon. It's certain so will VR headsets.

This will be a very big improvement for this issue in flight sim.

[chihirobelmo]

Smart scaling was a solution from back in the day when games weren't graphically attractive to begin with.

 

The original paper was written in 2003 and was mainly to Improving Target Orientation Discrimination with popular monitor resolution at the time.

However it is still effective until so Large monitor or VR headsets that represents 1:1 FOV against RL becomes popular device.

Because even with FullHD monitor or 4K monitor nowadays, without enough monitor size we are to see 1/2 to 1/3 size view against RL same situation.

I guess such a size monitors are still our average device to have.

 

Resolution is Resolution it never changes size of the view directly. Perhaps might increase popular monitor size in the market, but only affects that way.

Without 60-90FOV size monitor we still need "FOV slider abuse", we will be a pilot who look at the sky through the finder of APS-C DSLR always abusing focal length between 14-50mm.

Pilot who never see the sky through Mk.I eyeball.

 

Color, gamma, contrast improvements are needed to represent RL visibility, of course, but not enough. So is resolution.

If in Realistic FOV, they only makes few dots(or tiny aircraft if enough resolution) easier to spot which still hardly allows you to discriminate its orientation, also its still never be as easy(hard) to spot as in RL.

All because it still looks 1/2-1/3 size against how we can expect to see in RL.

How much you improve the color, rendering quality, simulation of atmospheric contrasts, you still have to see the sky through the small finder of the APS-C DSLR with 50mm lens in order to get RL visibility.

 

At least even in nowadays SmartScaling is allowing us to see the 1.0-5.0nm distant aircraft close size to what will be expected to see in RL while we are in realistic FOV. Not only is a solution from back in the day.

Edited October 12, 2016 by chihirobelmo

[SharpeXB]

Smart scaling is a legacy feature from when flight sims looked like this.

It's a solution from the past.

The future of these sims will involve higher quality video, higher resolution and VR

 

If I was ED I would concentrate on those future qualities rather than try and rehash past solutions.

 

Matt may have misspoke about smart scaling and RCS but he still didn't appear to like the feature. I think every aspect of this has been talked to death by this point. Let's see what 2.5 brings.

[gavagai]

Smart scaling is a legacy feature from when flight sims looked like this.

 

Falcon 3 did not have smart scaling. It had simple object magnification.

 

When Falcon 4 came out 1280x1024 res was coming into use.

 

The irony is that even with smart scaling turned off, you can still see aircraft more easily in Falcon 4 than in DCS, and it is 16 years old. :doh:

[GGTharos]

You could see aircraft quite easily in LOMAC too, as eye-popping dots beyond a certain distance.

 

Today you will see this happen with the Su-30 LOD.

 

The main problem with this is that the aircraft is so incredibly visible that the camouflage plays no role whatsoever - if you zoom just a bit you can basically keep your radar silent too and just dot-hunt.

 

Falcon 4 had similar issues.

[chihirobelmo]

Smart scaling is a legacy feature from when flight sims looked like this.

It's a solution from the past.

The future of these sims will involve higher quality video, higher resolution and VR

 

If I was ED I would concentrate on those future qualities rather than try and rehash past solutions.

 

Matt may have misspoke about smart scaling and RCS but he still didn't appear to like the feature. I think every aspect of this has been talked to death by this point. Let's see what 2.5 brings.

 

What??

 

At least what Current BMS 4.33 implements as a name of "SmartScaling" is from the paper in 2003.

http://www.dtic.mil/docs/citations/ADA414893

 

Maybe there was a same name technology in old Falcon but its not the same method they use. Original Falcon4.0 has magnified models regardless of its distance and magnification factor has been set by users freely, which can't be done in BMS4.33 and now the factor against distance is calculated via research in 2003.

 

The irony is that even with smart scaling turned off, you can still see aircraft more easily in Falcon 4 than in DCS, and it is 16 years old. :doh:

 

Yes it was (BTW the magnification effect has not called SmartScaling in original falcon4.0, it was "Vehicle Magnification") and now in BMS with SmartScaling disabled its hard to see aircraft beyond 1.0nm as same as current DCS. Perhaps slightly easier due to contrast reduction difference.

Edited October 12, 2016 by chihirobelmo

[SharpeXB]

What??

Ok so apparently it was called "object magficiation"

Same difference. Basically the idea of representing objects out of scale.

From your description it sounds as if it looks pretty awful. Since all graphics then were pretty awful probably nobody cared that scaling looked awful too.

By "legacy feature" I mean it was introduced when sims were rather primitive and then

lingered on. Probably past the point where it is still necessary.

2003 is actually rather ancient history in gaming. That's the 4:3 CRT era. Flight sims would not even have been playable at all on those displays without scaling.

Fast forward to 2016 we're looking at Ultra HD, HDR and VR. Today's a different world.

[chihirobelmo]

Never seen SmartScaling ugly except looking at the aircrafts lining up opposite side of the runway. In sky it looks totally natural.

Even in ground you never see ugly wingman just next to you, or a few hundreds meter in front of you.

 

This video is captured in FullHD and in-game FOV 60(which is still bit narrow) but even in modern resolution aircraft beyond 1.5nm without smartscaling would hardly allows you to discriminate its orientation.

SmartScaling allows you to discriminate the aircraft orientation even in 3.0nm. The paper is still effective even in current monitor resolution.

 

According to the paper there test was made by BARCO 808 which is 1600x1200 resolution projector.

https://www.barco.com/en/Products/Projectors/Simulation-projectors/High-Performance-Graphics-Projector.aspx#!specs

(1600x1200 is called UXGA and has 1,920,000 number of pixels,

Current standard 1920x1080 FHD has 2,073,600 pixels)

 

Besides 2003 was already an era where 1024x768 or 1280x1024 LCD monitors had come to.

Edited October 13, 2016 by chihirobelmo

[SharpeXB]

You're supposed to use the zoom view in these flight sims, constantly varying your FOV in order to have both peripheral and detailed vision. Not understanding this important view control is a big reason why some players have difficulty with visibility.