Rafale - Myth or fiction

[Emu]

So there's been some claims that the Rafale's Spectra system reduces its effective RCS to that of an F-22. Here is an example, although far from the only one:

 

http://indiandefence.com/threads/the-flying-white-mmrca-deal.55719/page-3#post-484624

 

Rafale's RCS matches that of the F-22. As told by the VP of Dassault. He used the words sparrow to describe the frontal RCS of Rafale. The F-22's RCS is that of a metal marble. A sparrow and a marble have similar ballpark RCS figures.

 

If you reach the table, you can see it for yourself.

 

But that's only for a few more years, maybe until 2024, then Spectra will be upgraded again to have a much lower RCS than the F-22. And Rafale's RCS will continue becoming smaller because it is upgradable unlike what you can get from shaping.

 

I even read the same stuff on keypubs. Am I wrong on thinking these people are complete idiots? Have I missed something?

 

Edited January 28, 2016 by Emu

[Sweep]

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

 

That is hilarious!

 

Even if the Rafale had an RCS that low, putting any weapons on increases it by a LOT...

[QuiGon]

Why is that so hilarious? I'm no expert, but as far as I know the radar and the defensive electronic countermeasure system (Spectra) of the Rafale are very advanced and are able to hide the plane from enemy radar by making use of active cancelation. That's a totally different aproach to stealth technology then the common passive stealth techs.

Edited January 28, 2016 by QuiGon

[Emu]

So have the US completely wasted their time with materials research and shaping via supercomputer, when all they needed to do was set up a relatively simple EW scheme to send out emissions 180deg out-of-phase with those received? I find that really difficult to believe. I also struggle to understand how active cancellation works for parts of the aircraft where no EW emitters are present.

 

For me the real question is why the hell the French are developing Neuron with a VLO design, if they can basically just throw out a non-VLO design and let Spectra hide it. There's a lot that doesn't add up.

 

Then you have the question of technology transfer to the Middle East, NATO would surely be really happy if France was giving Middle Eastern nations the technology to turn any aircraft into a VLO aircraft.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Emu

[NRG-Vampire]

the public will never know the truth

ok, not never but circa till 2050 :P

[Fer_Fer]

the public will never know the truth

ok, not never but circa till 2050 :P

 

doubtful, given that the AdA is slated to operate the Rafale till the 2040's.

 

and even then, French paranoia will prolly prevent anything meaningful coming to the public..

[RoflSeal]

I don't see active cancellation working against AESA too well as they send their emissions over a range of frequencies and continuously change them to stop stuff like this.

[Eddie]

So, in summary, the Rafale has a reasonably good modern Electronic Warfare suite on par with many other western Gen 4.5/5 fighters. What's the big issue here?

[Emu]

So, in summary, the Rafale has a reasonably good modern Electronic Warfare suite on par with many other western Gen 4.5/5 fighters. What's the big issue here?

The claim that it reduces the Rafale's effective RCS to that of an F-22.

 

And add to that the French claim that it is above and beyond that of other NATO fighter EW.

[Eddie]

The claim that it reduces the Rafale's effective RCS to that of an F-22.

 

And? Why does that strike you as unreasonable? The Raptor is not magic.

 

The question you should be asking yourself is, if a modern EW system can have that impact on a Rafale, what does the Raptor's or Lightning II's EW system do for them?

 

And add to that the French claim that it is above and beyond that of other NATO fighter EW.

 

Beyond many? Certainly. Beyond most? Perhaps. Beyond all? No.

 

Rafale's defensive aids suite is more modern and more integrated that the systems on legacy gen 4 platforms. Of course it is more effective. The same is true of Typhoon and others.

 

I think the issue here is that you greatly underestimate what modern EW systems can do. The claims you have identified are not anything outrageous at all, and Rafale is not special.

[Emu]

Beyond all?

That's pretty much their claim and the bit that irks me. Like they've done something so special that nobody else has done it. Something that makes stealth redundant etc.

 

Interesting to know that it's possible though.:thumbup:

Edited January 28, 2016 by Emu

[Eddie]

That's just marketing speaking. They don't flat out say it's unique, but the language used tends to support that interpretation. Everyone does it.

 

ECM systems have been doing this for decades, it's just that with modern systems having more processing power they are able to do more of the same thing at once and/or deal with more modern frequency agile RADARs.

 

But as ever nothing is invulnerable, and the constant development race between RADAR ECCM and ECM/ESM continues as ever.

[tsumikae]

Awwww come on! Please, we're trying to sell those planes to India right now. What's the problem with boosting a bit the marketing arguments? :p

[Emu]

That's just marketing speaking. They don't flat out say it's unique, but the language used tends to support that interpretation. Everyone does it.

 

ECM systems have been doing this for decades, it's just that with modern systems having more processing power they are able to do more of the same thing at once and/or deal with more modern frequency agile RADARs.

 

But as ever nothing is invulnerable, and the constant development race between RADAR ECCM and ECM/ESM continues as ever.

 

So here's the infamous video and apparently they're in the process of developing an application of this with conformal radar.

 

[Emu]

Awwww come on! Please, we're trying to sell those planes to India right now. What's the problem with boosting a bit the marketing arguments? :p

And they still haven't agreed a price and the number is down from 126 to 36. Clearly the Indians are very confident in the product.

[Fer_Fer]

And they still haven't agreed a price and the number is down from 126 to 36. Clearly the Indians are very confident in the product.

 

not exactly. although a lot of Rafale haters think so, its far from the truth.

 

The problem wasn't the MMRCA itself, Dassault won it with a very nice jet, combined with the fact that the IAF is in love with their Mirage 2000's, mostly due to the French being reliable suppliers of parts, and unlike the MKi and Mig 29's is very much free of maintenance problems.

 

The problem with the French arrived when the exact details were negotiated. Under the MMRCA tender, the requirement was that the initial batch was to be produced in France, while HAL would get a ToT and be charged with production in licence, which in this case, would be 108 frames (IIRC). Now the problem was that Dassault was not convinced that HAL had the required standards of manufacture, while HAL insisted that Dassault would be liable for any production errors in HAL build airframes. This was then complicated by the Indians demanding that Dassault would not manage the production line under HAL. Understandably, this left the French a bit in a bind, as at the Time, India was the only serious buyer.

 

On the other hand, the IAF has a shortage of aircraft, and could not afford another endless cycle of negotiation and deals that were stuck in Limbo. The Modi Government, did the right thing, terminated the MMRCA tender, and instead went with a 36 frame buy as a measure to stop the worst shortages. However, it seems that in the future, the Indians will consider to still buy the full 108 frames still, but rather in a single bloc buy, opts to spread it out over a longer period of time.

 

Its even more interesting as France is offering the Rafale M as well, which, if they pick it, brings down costs significantly.

[Emu]

But they agreed to buy in 2012, it's now 2016 and they're haggling over the price of just 36 jets. It's nothing short of ridiculous. The jets are yet to enter production and still finance is to be agreed.

 

At the very least it's clear that the EW system is nowhere near as spectacular as originally mooted, or they'd have just bought them and the Rafale Ms and not looked back. Seems clear they're deeply unsure. Deferring purchases is definitely not a frugal strategy. Bulk buy always reduces cost. It's more likely they're waiting for the PAK-FA, to see if any more Rafale purchases are even relevant.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Emu

[Fer_Fer]

But they agreed to buy in 2012, it's now 2016 and they're haggling over the price of just 36 jets. It's nothing short of ridiculous. The jets are yet to enter production and still finance is to be agreed.

 

At the very least it's clear that the EW system is nowhere near as spectacular as originally mooted, or they'd have just bought them and the Rafale Ms and not looked back. Seems clear they're deeply unsure.

 

eh, credit terms are nothing special for these kinds of deals, to be honest, speaking from experience, chances are the Credit terms are longer then the actual agreement by a fair margin. we are still talking a deal worth some odd 4Bn.

 

so, not having provisions for exchange rates, inflation and stuff, it will run extra costs into the millions if you aren't being careful.

 

as for being unsure, the political posturing doesn't indicate so, nor does the ministry of Defence itself.

secondly, the Navy tender is in its earliest stages, and the INdian navy has never operated any french aircraft before, thus not making it an autobuy.

[Emu]

How does the political posturing not indicate uncertainty? Going from 126 planes to 36 and haggling over price after 4 years isn't exactly confidence inspiring. A price negotiation isn't supposed to take as long as aircraft development.

[Fer_Fer]

How does the political posturing not indicate uncertainty? Going from 126 planes to 36 and haggling over price after 4 years isn't exactly confidence inspiring. A price negotiation isn't supposed to take as long as aircraft development.

 

compared to how Indian defense procurement usually goes, which is, deals drag on for decades, if they get made at all. if anything, procurement in India is a matter of patience, more so then doing business in Japan or China.

secondly, price negotiation is the most important part of the whole deal, if you don't do it properly it can seriously ruin your day.

[probad]

posturing is a shaky criteria in politics. south korea in comparison seemed a lot more "confident" in the k-x rafale bid, but it ended up being a feint to get a better deal on the slam eagle.

 

ferfer's earlier post regarding the terms gives some insight into each party's interests and offers some pieces of the puzzle as to what is driving india's (in)actions.

[garrya]

So there's been some claims that the Rafale's Spectra system reduces its effective RCS to that of an F-22. Here is an example, although far from the only one:

 

http://indiandefence.com/threads/the-flying-white-mmrca-deal.55719/page-3#post-484624

 

 

 

I even read the same stuff on keypubs. Am I wrong on thinking these people are complete idiots? Have I missed something?

 

 

I think this is more or less propaganda-overly advertising

Active cancellation is similar to plasma stealth , it is a myth , the only way for it to work is if some how Rafale can transmit from everywhere on it's airframe at all directions , that quite impossible not to mention the timing to cause destructive interference

[AussieGhost789]

But they agreed to buy in 2012, it's now 2016 and they're haggling over the price of just 36 jets. It's nothing short of ridiculous. The jets are yet to enter production and still finance is to be agreed.

 

At the very least it's clear that the EW system is nowhere near as spectacular as originally mooted, or they'd have just bought them and the Rafale Ms and not looked back. Seems clear they're deeply unsure. Deferring purchases is definitely not a frugal strategy. Bulk buy always reduces cost. It's more likely they're waiting for the PAK-FA, to see if any more Rafale purchases are even relevant.

 

 

From the way I read Fer Fer's post it is not about uncertainty of the aircrafts capability, rather uncertainty surrounding the specifics of the production arrangement.

[Emu]

eh, credit terms are nothing special for these kinds of deals, to be honest, speaking from experience, chances are the Credit terms are longer then the actual agreement by a fair margin. we are still talking a deal worth some odd 4Bn.

 

so, not having provisions for exchange rates, inflation and stuff, it will run extra costs into the millions if you aren't being careful.

 

as for being unsure, the political posturing doesn't indicate so, nor does the ministry of Defence itself.

secondly, the Navy tender is in its earliest stages, and the INdian navy has never operated any french aircraft before, thus not making it an autobuy.

Well here's the catch, the Indians swear blind that they are paying cash and don't take loans for military purchases. And if they were taking a loan, then the terms of the payments affect the amount paid. The IAF indicated a desperate immediate need for 84 to replace an ageing fleet and the government turned round and agreed to 36. Seems like an emergency patch and negotiations have definitely frustrated the French and the reduced volume has increased cost.

 

If they're already aiming for the PAK-FA as their main fighter post 2020, every year that passes makes a larger Rafale purchase uneconomical and unneeded. Production is another problem. Time to set up production lines, then training. By the time the Rafale hits Indian service it'll be defunct.

 

From the way I read Fer Fer's post it is not about uncertainty of the aircrafts capability, rather uncertainty surrounding the specifics of the production arrangement.

I don't really buy that though. I've been following it from the start. I've seen the number slowly reduce, I've seen the French frustration in negotiations, I've seen issues emerge when the problem of increased unit price for a reduced number came about. Right now I think their plan is to get 36, and delay until 2020 and see how things stand. That way they get the ToT without having to buy loads of aircraft.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Emu

[Emu]

I think this is more or less propaganda-overly advertising

Active cancellation is similar to plasma stealth , it is a myth , the only way for it to work is if some how Rafale can transmit from everywhere on it's airframe at all directions , that quite impossible not to mention the timing to cause destructive interference

Well that's the downfall and why it can never match a stealth fighter. Okay, DRFM active cancellation can maybe perform well against one Tx/Rx radar. But what happens when 20 aircraft come along? What happens when you have several ground radar in multiple directions? What happens when you have a bistatic radar and you don't know where the receiver is because it's passive? Same goes for aircraft radar, when one plane is operating in passive mode.