DCS: (Russian 4th Gen Aircraft)

[nogano00]

This isn't a request thread or anything. I just wondered what you guys think would be a great competitor to American/European aircraft? Let's be honest with ourselves. Most likely when DCS: F/A-18, F-14, AJS-37, Eurofighter Typhoon, and many more are released the use of the FC3 aircraft will decrease and we will have Western VS. Western, that is not as much fun as Western vs. Russian. So I want to hear your opinions on what Russian aircraft should be introduced to the game. My choice would be an Su-27SM but since ED has said that it is going to be impossible- because of all classified information even though I see nothing special about it's armament- then perhaps a MiG-31 and MiG-27 to fill in the ground attack role, that would be my choice. How about you?

[Drona]

Su-35, MiG-29K. Covers all areas of combat ;)

[nogano00]

Su-35, MiG-29K. Covers all areas of combat ;)

 

yes the 29k would be awesome, and I think it's a must, but the su-35 is a further development of an su-27sm and ED wasn't even able to get info on that aircraft :(

[Sweep]

^AFAIK, its not the info that is the problem, its permission to make something of said info.

 

Personally, I want a relatively low quality, generic 'modern Flanker', just to represent the overall capabilities of the upgraded ones (be it J-11_, the -27SM, Su-35, etc).

 

For example: put the F-15 cockpit and weapon systems on a Flanker model/PFM, add some weapons. (like PL-9/12, R-77, RVV-SD, certain A/G stores, etc.) That's good enough for my purposes...Although having a bit more detail - Say an SM cockpit/display layout instead of an F-15 pit port - Would be awesome. IDK, I suppose I'm more of a multiplayer guy that'd like a better target to shoot at, all the "switchology" realism stuff isn't my thing.

 

BTW, prepare to be moved to the Russian wishlist. :D

[Fer_Fer]

IMHO,

A Mig 31 will be enough for the near future, in a Red vs Blue setting it would give Red the ability to do long range BVR, and guide flankers onto their target, which is enough IMHO

[nogano00]

^AFAIK, its not the info that is the problem, its permission to make something of said info.

 

Personally, I want a relatively low quality, generic 'modern Flanker', just to represent the overall capabilities of the upgraded ones (be it J-11_, the -27SM, Su-35, etc).

 

For example: put the F-15 cockpit and weapon systems on a Flanker model/PFM, add some weapons. (like PL-9/12, R-77, RVV-SD, certain A/G stores, etc.) That's good enough for my purposes...Although having a bit more detail - Say an SM cockpit/display layout instead of an F-15 pit port - Would be awesome. IDK, I suppose I'm more of a multiplayer guy that'd like a better target to shoot at, all the "switchology" realism stuff isn't my thing.

 

BTW, prepare to be moved to the Russian wishlist. :D

 

Yeah, what you said does sound great, I never knew they could "copyright" a warplane but I think we should get the SM either way maybe by a 3rd party developer, it is basicly a russian F/A-18 or F-15E if i may. And this isn't meant to be a "wishlist" it's what we (community) think is comparable to that of the western aircraft we are getting in DCS. :thumbup:

[Sweep]

I think its some Russian laws about classified/restricted material or something, not sure. :(

[Drag0nWIng]

Because the flight sim studio and the flight simmer are all the western military aircraft fanboy, they just like to say F-15 is awesome, F-15 is awesome!

Is there any soviet aircraft in FSX? I can find many F-15 variants, many wwii american/british/germany warbird by different studio, but there are very very few Russian aircraft in fsx (however they cannot shoot anything). If the consumer doesn't like russian bird, Why the studio develop it?

 

Yeah, I like mig-29 and mig-23, I hope the later variant could join the DCSw, but will it?

[probad]

i honestly wish to see stuff like the j-8ii or j-10 on the other side but the chinese are beyond miserly when it comes to military info...

[nogano00]

i honestly wish to see stuff like the j-8ii or j-10 on the other side but the chinese are beyond miserly when it comes to military info...

 

All of those politically secluded countries are paranoid about sharing, a real shame would love to have an Su-27sm or the J-8iim but perhaps the MiG-21-93 from India would be more accessible and I am sure it would compete more or less with the F-18, since it gets the r-77, r-27, etc; and would be pretty easy we have the MiG-21 model all we need is su-27 radar copy and paste to an MFD and an MFD modeled on the cockpit and few adjustments to the cockpit perhaps one year of development would be enough. seems like an easy money maker surprised LN doesn't have plans to develop one.

[Seaeagle]

My choice would be an Su-27SM but since ED has said that it is going to be impossible- because of all classified information even though I see nothing special about it's armament

 

Its not about the armament, but its onboard systems/sensory and how they are displayed to the pilot.

 

...and would be pretty easy we have the MiG-21 model all we need is su-27 radar copy and paste to an MFD and an MFD modeled on the cockpit and few adjustments to the cockpit perhaps one year of development would be enough

 

The MiG-21-93 version has a new radar(Kopyo) that is much smaller(less powerful), but much more advanced(including air-to-ground modes) than the old N001 radar of the Su-27.

[Seaeagle]

^AFAIK, its not the info that is the problem, its permission to make something of said info.

 

Yes "the info" is the problem.

[pepin1234]

The Mig-29 and Su-27 can do a good job against all this western Aircraft.

[Kev2go]

The Mig-29 and Su-27 can do a good job against all this western Aircraft.

 

Except it sucks that su27 only has r27s but no r77. While f15 has acess to the amrams a120b and aim120c and the upcoming f18 will have Wm too.

 

So it's understand le that people want to see not jusy full fidelity counterparts but more modernized variants to better compare il with better avoincis and missile tech.

[King_Hrothgar]

All of those politically secluded countries are paranoid about sharing, a real shame would love to have an Su-27sm or the J-8iim but perhaps the MiG-21-93 from India would be more accessible and I am sure it would compete more or less with the F-18, since it gets the r-77, r-27, etc; and would be pretty easy we have the MiG-21 model all we need is su-27 radar copy and paste to an MFD and an MFD modeled on the cockpit and few adjustments to the cockpit perhaps one year of development would be enough. seems like an easy money maker surprised LN doesn't have plans to develop one.

 

The MiG-21-93/97/Bison would help fill the void I think. As mentioned, the radar is a fair bit different but that's actually a good thing. It's a newer radar even if less powerful overall. There is also nothing secret about the 93 and 97 as they are made exclusively for export and detailed information is available (even if a little hard to find). I do think a MiG-21-97 would still face an uphill battle against spamramming F-15's, but it would be a solid alternative to the FC3 Su-27 and MiG-29.

[nogano00]

Its not about the armament, but its onboard systems/sensory and how they are displayed to the pilot.

 

 

 

The MiG-21-93 version has a new radar(Kopyo) that is much smaller(less powerful), but much more advanced(including air-to-ground modes) than the old N001 radar of the Su-27.

 

by me saying copy paste I don't mean just leave it as it is, ofcourse different tuning needs to be done and A2G and A2A radars meanwhile are universal irl in DCS A2G radar is a separate feature from the A2A one put into one thing, from what I see the Mirage 2000c radar is basicly a modified F-15 radar (in game) with 160mile range which isn't even a thing in real life. but that's aside the point, and the sensory/systems of the Russian airforce are no special secret thing, it doesn't dramatically outperform that of the western counterpart in fact it is worse in many ways, what I meant by the armament is that the systems that are used to put the weaponry of the su-27sm to use has been used in the 80s and we are getting aircraft that are modified or developed in the 90s such as the F-14 from the 90s, F/A-18c with weapons from the 2000 aswell as a eurofighter typhoon with the Euroradar CAPTOR-E which is an extreme modern radar. The only reason how we can get those 4+ and 4 gen aircraft in the game is because the British Army is open to share most information about the Eurofighter with VEAO and so is the US Army open to share details, the thing is that the Russian army on the other side said no to ED, to get any bit of info and to even include the aircraft in the game.

[nogano00]

The MiG-21-93/97/Bison would help fill the void I think. As mentioned, the radar is a fair bit different but that's actually a good thing. It's a newer radar even if less powerful overall. There is also nothing secret about the 93 and 97 as they are made exclusively for export and detailed information is available (even if a little hard to find). I do think a MiG-21-97 would still face an uphill battle against spamramming F-15's, but it would be a solid alternative to the FC3 Su-27 and MiG-29.

 

100% agree

[Seaeagle]

by me saying copy paste I don't mean just leave it as it is, ofcourse different tuning needs to be done and A2G and A2A radars meanwhile are universal irl in DCS A2G radar is a separate feature from the A2A one put into one thing, from what I see the Mirage 2000c radar is basicly a modified F-15 radar (in game) with 160mile range which isn't even a thing in real life.

 

You proposed a MiG-21-93 version and then went on to say that all that was needed for that would be to port over the radar of the Su-27. I am telling you that the radar of the MiG-21-93 has absolutely *nothing* to do with the Su-27 radar in anyway. Apart from being minute in comparison, its a completely different design - newer technology with different characteristics and capabilities. I don't know what you are talking about in regards to A2A/A2G radar - so far no A2G radar functionality in the game(will only be introduced with the F-18 module).

 

 

....and the sensory/systems of the Russian airforce are no special secret thing, it doesn't dramatically outperform that of the western counterpart in fact it is worse in many ways, what I meant by the armament is that the systems that are used to put the weaponry of the su-27sm to use has been used in the 80s

 

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

[WinterH]

I am someone who has found "red" birds much more interesting since childhood. Might have do with mystery factor, or with "neighbors grass always greener" rule, or may be their usualy more seat of the pants operation. They are the things that got me interested in ED sims.

 

So I would love having some in DCS. Yet, I would not be interested in "lets guesstimate it all" or "lets put another cockpit and mish-mash additional missiles on it" approaches. Unfortunately, Russia or China seem not too forthcoming regarding legal allowance or information in these newer military hardware. I hope it will change, but I don't count on us getting a proper very modern red jet.

 

Older ones, yeah possibly. But this brings another side of coin, to compete F-15C, and soon to arrive aircraft like Eurofighter, F/A-18C, F-14B on more or less equal footing, a 2000s or at least very late 90s model Russian aircraft would be needed, and that already seems too late.

 

May be some upgrades and / or international variants like Bison, Su-30MKI etc, don't know, even those sound difficult to happen.

 

Rather, I am looking forward more into more 3rd gen and early 4th gen aircraft from all over the world, including both West and East. It is more likely to get well represented modules from this period, and opposing aircraft were somewhat better matched back then too. That's just me anyway.

[Sryan]

Except it sucks that su27 only has r27s but no r77. While f15 has acess to the amrams a120b and aim120c and the upcoming f18 will have Wm too.

 

So it's understand le that people want to see not jusy full fidelity counterparts but more modernized variants to better compare il with better avoincis and missile tech.

 

Meanwhile the F15 in the simulation has no datalink, Helmet mounting cueing system or aim-9X Vector thrusting high-off boresight locking missile. It also cannot carry a Talon HATE pod to give it IRST capability.

 

I'm all for new russian stuff. I want a full russian dcs module for maybe the su-24, 27 or 34. But I'm afraid if we're going to add new stuff just for the sake of it being more powerful than what the last generation had the simulation may enter a state of powercreep where only the latest stuff is worth having. And soon we'll have F15C2040's with F22's battling it out with PAK FA T50's and HAL FGFA's/AMCA's.

[nogano00]

You proposed a MiG-21-93 version and then went on to say that all that was needed for that would be to port over the radar of the Su-27. I am telling you that the radar of the MiG-21-93 has absolutely *nothing* to do with the Su-27 radar in anyway. Apart from being minute in comparison, its a completely different design - newer technology with different characteristics and capabilities. I don't know what you are talking about in regards to A2A/A2G radar - so far no A2G radar functionality in the game(will only be introduced with the F-18 module).

 

 

 

 

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

 

Clearly you are not capable of thinking outside the box and not getting tunnel visioned on one thing. Clearly MiG-21-93 radar had nothing to do with the Su-27 that is obvious, but the mirage radar has nothing to do with the F-15, no aircraft has the same radar and I assure you that most of the radar's in DCS are modifications of the other ones, perhaps when F-18 come out they will make it special, but I am pretty sure it will be a "COPY PASTE" of an F-15 radar with a few modifications., radar is just a bunch of scripts in the game files that allow you to do what they do. You need to realize that this game is not real life. And if I have "no idea on what I am talking about" then please explain, because trust me I very well know my Russian and western aircraft I spend my free time reading manuals and other information. I see no point argueing with a non open minded person, it's just no fun for me. This is all off topic. if you come in to a forum thread just trying to prove people wrong and post zero information about the thread's topic; you should really consider a different hobby.

[Megaladon7k]

Meanwhile the F15 in the simulation has no datalink, Helmet mounting cueing system or aim-9X Vector thrusting high-off boresight locking missile. It also cannot carry a Talon HATE pod to give it IRST capability.

 

I'm all for new russian stuff. I want a full russian dcs module for maybe the su-24, 27 or 34. But I'm afraid if we're going to add new stuff just for the sake of it being more powerful than what the last generation had the simulation may enter a state of powercreep where only the latest stuff is worth having. And soon we'll have F15C2040's with F22's battling it out with PAK FA T50's and HAL FGFA's/AMCA's.

 

I am sure it won't get to the point of 2017 aircraft, we might get those in 20 years, but 2000s seems reasonable to a limit like the Eurofighter, Su-35, F-35(RIP)

[Megaladon7k]

I am someone who has found "red" birds much more interesting since childhood. Might have do with mystery factor, or with "neighbors grass always greener" rule, or may be their usualy more seat of the pants operation. They are the things that got me interested in ED sims.

 

So I would love having some in DCS. Yet, I would not be interested in "lets guesstimate it all" or "lets put another cockpit and mish-mash additional missiles on it" approaches. Unfortunately, Russia or China seem not too forthcoming regarding legal allowance or information in these newer military hardware. I hope it will change, but I don't count on us getting a proper very modern red jet.

 

Older ones, yeah possibly. But this brings another side of coin, to compete F-15C, and soon to arrive aircraft like Eurofighter, F/A-18C, F-14B on more or less equal footing, a 2000s or at least very late 90s model Russian aircraft would be needed, and that already seems too late.

 

May be some upgrades and / or international variants like Bison, Su-30MKI etc, don't know, even those sound difficult to happen.

 

Rather, I am looking forward more into more 3rd gen and early 4th gen aircraft from all over the world, including both West and East. It is more likely to get well represented modules from this period, and opposing aircraft were somewhat better matched back then too. That's just me anyway.

If any way then it would have to be an international variant since Russian intellegence won't share any info.

 

But in my opinion the future of DCS will include servers with 4gen aircraft, servers with 3rd gen aircraft and servers with 2gen aircraft.

[pepin1234]

Su-24M for A-G. The Su/Mig still are capable in the air

[Seaeagle]

Clearly you are not capable of thinking outside the box and not getting tunnel visioned on one thing. Clearly MiG-21-93 radar had nothing to do with the Su-27 that is obvious, but the mirage radar has nothing to do with the F-15, no aircraft has the same radar and I assure you that most of the radar's in DCS are modifications of the other ones, perhaps when F-18 come out they will make it special, but I am pretty sure it will be a "COPY PASTE" of an F-15 radar with a few modifications., radar is just a bunch of scripts in the game files that allow you to do what they do.You need to realize that this game is not real life.

 

If you were talking about AI implementation only, then it would make sense. But for a flyable aircraft, you don't just need to know the basic specifics of each radar set, but also the varies modes it can operate in and how they are displayed to the pilot on the HUD and MFDs - same goes for other systems such as RWS, IRST etc.

 

If you just took the radar code of the Su-27/MiG-29 along with its display system and adjusted it for less power/range for depicting the MiG-21-93's a Kopyo radar, it would grossly misrepresent the most important aspect of what the MiG-21-93 upgrade was about and thereby pretty much defeat the purpose of introducing it to the sim in the first place.

 

..And if I have "no idea on what I am talking about" then please explain, because trust me I very well know my Russian and western aircraft I spend my free time reading manuals and other information.

 

You said that:

...the sensory/systems of the Russian airforce are no special secret thing, it doesn't dramatically outperform that of the western counterpart in fact it is worse in many ways, what I meant by the armament is that the systems that are used to put the weaponry of the su-27sm to use has been used in the 80s

 

The Su-27SM has a modified radar, new IRST(with TV) and new radar warning system, which among other things, allow it to use new weapon types; R-77 and Kh-31A(radar), Kh-31P(RWS), Kh-29TE and KAB-500kr(IRST). Plus a whole bunch of other things including a new display system with color LCDs that wasn't "used in the 80'ies" and for which there is little or no information available.

 

I see no point argueing with a non open minded person, it's just no fun for me. This is all off topic. if you come in to a forum thread just trying to prove people wrong and post zero information about the thread's topic; you should really consider a different hobby.

 

Well I guess my open mindedness doesn't extend to suggestions for shallow make-believe implementations of modernised Russian aircraft that don't remotely represent what they are about.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Seaeagle