F-22 Raptor "sucks"

[Ukr_Alex]

forget it.....I have enough politics in my life already.

[cool_t]

Dice and Dungeons and Dragons!

 

magical cloak of invincibility, it was never intended for that purpose...and STILL isn't.

 

 

Quote Iguana King,

 

:music_whistling:

[hitman]

I can't think of anybody wanting to attack Russia.

Theres always that little country to the south of Russia called China...

[Dudikoff]

I'm only concerned with air forces ijozic, I know the USSR had strengths elsewhere. You say that it isn't fair, but this is how it is, fair or not.

The MiG-29A -did- have some advantages, but the 16 already outperformed it when it came to radar search, and the poor thing simply had little to no change against F-15s in a straight-up fight.

 

You're right, the only thing the F-16 had was the much more advanced radar. The MiG was dependant on GCI, but so was the F-16 (on AWACS). I don't think it would fly over the frontline with its radar on thus making it easy for the MiGs to locate him. But what good would it be to the F-16 to have a first lock on if it didn't have mid-range missiles? The MiG had two and when the fight moved WVR the Archers and HMD are a much more dangerous combination then the Sidewinder which it outranges and outmaneuvres.

 

And I don't see why would you compare the 29 with the 15. The 29 was never developed to fight dedicated air superiority fighters, it was Flanker's job. It has the less advanced radar, but it had longer ranged missiles and a powerful radar which could make use of it.

[airea]

So after all the argument, which is better? Which one should I buy for my kid to play?

 

f22

e2000

su-27-30-34

f15

f16

?

[Groove]

So after all the argument, which is better? Which one should I buy for my kid to play?

 

f22

e2000

su-27-30-34

f15

f16

?

 

 

FW190-D

[JaBoG32_Prinzartus]

Reading this thread is like listening to virgins talknig about giving birth to twins!

 

:)

 

I assume no one knows quite enough about all the subsystems in details and as a collaborating unit of the 5th generation fighters to give a prospected kill ratio of a potential 5th generation's fighter clash! Maybe secret service agents do, but they never say the truth, anyway !

 

That's ridiculous and childish!

[ivan_v4]

I heard that Lockheed Martin, is proposing an unmaned version of the F-35.

How is that is gonna impact the future of the tactics of air combat?

[rattler]

apology to PILOTASSO

 

"Originally Posted by aimmaverick

OMG rattler you dont have a clue about these two jets do you? EF is nowhere near F-22 and particulary not in RCS. EF has just reduced RCS and is not considered a stealth plane. Add to this weapons and it has the very visible radar signature. EF has traditional shape, while F-22 has not, kinda boxy looking as you san see. If we are to compare these 2 jets, this is the area where Raptor is the most superior to the Typhoon. Period. I say again Eurofigher is NOT a stealth plane."

 

SORRY my friend you have stuck to the issues and nicely so. Please accept my apology I read the quotes wrong. It is the above quote that cantains the personal suggestion. Your replies have been nothing but solid to the topic.

[Pilotasso]

NP ratler S!

[Frostie]

The price of a Raptor is abso insane in a couple of yrs russian built planes will be just as good if not better at a 'fifth' of the price that means a hell of a lot more aircraft.

I don't think Raptors are going to be able to compete against superior numbers of 5thgen fighters , it won't be a turkey shoot like what the f22 has been showcased with against f15's.

F15s,16s to make up numbers thats not gonna work if F22s make a joke out of them so are other 5thgen a/c.

I don't understand why the USAF are being held over a barrel by its own country ,in WW2 the Nazi's had the best a/c throughout different periods, FW190 early on then the Me262 but it never had enough of them at the right time and we know what happened to that superpowers dreams.

 

The F22 is being 'rightly' touted the dogs plums but by how far not much I think.

 

On the 9G statement earlier by Rattler I think its the difference between making a 9G turn and sustaining 9G that the Typhoon has over the F22 , Im happy to be put right.:book:

[TucksonSonny]

[/font]

You have a source for that-or just something you made up on the spot? How would you know about any projects in development?

 

 

A product-improvement of the R-77 Adder is in the works, codenamed the R-77M1, and will feature a ramjet propulsion device. This heavier missile system will have a much greater range, and will surely be the primary beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air weapon in upcoming fifth generation Russian frontline fighters.

The R-77 is also being developed to match developments abroad. The RVV-AE-PD (often referred to as the R-77M) is under development and has the four side fins replaced with ram jets. In addition to a new loft trajectory, it is expected to have a range exceeding 120km and limited primarily by the launch platform's radar.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-77_AA-12_Adder

;)

[Guest IguanaKing]

None of us knows actual performance figures though. Besides, holding a 9G turn longer won't matter much if the pilot is unconscious, which is very likely in a sustained turn like that. :smilewink:

[Pilotasso]

The british have a new G-suit wich enables 9G long endurance by the pilot in their new typhooon fighters.

[GGTharos]

The price of a Raptor is abso insane in a couple of yrs russian built planes will be just as good if not better at a 'fifth' of the price that means a hell of a lot more aircraft.

 

Which Russian 5th gen aircraft? And how did you come up with Russian built planes being as good, but cheaper?

 

I don't think Raptors are going to be able to compete against superior numbers of 5thgen fighters , it won't be a turkey shoot like what the f22 has been showcased with against f15's.

 

Are those '5th gen aircraft' stealth? No? THen it'll be a turkey shoot. ;)

 

On the 9G statement earlier by Rattler I think its the difference between making a 9G turn and sustaining 9G that the Typhoon has over the F22 , Im happy to be put right.:book:

 

 

There's no difference. The 22 has enormous TWR and no problem with such turns ;)

[S77th-konkussion]

A product-improvement of the R-77 Adder is in the works, codenamed the R-77M1, and will feature a ramjet propulsion device. This heavier missile system will have a much greater range, and will surely be the primary beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air weapon in upcoming fifth generation Russian frontline fighters.

 

The R-77 is also being developed to match developments abroad. The RVV-AE-PD (often referred to as the R-77M) is under development and has the four side fins replaced with ram jets. In addition to a new loft trajectory, it is expected to have a range exceeding 120km and limited primarily by the launch platform's radar.

 

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-77_AA-12_Adder

;)

 

So? You actually think that that is the only missile development project in the works on planet earth? You're welcome to harbor this odd hatred for the F22- but.. . well... honestly- who cares? We can wipe the floor with the best others have come up with- F22 or not. But-the F22 is about dealing with the future. Our potential enemies also have extremely talented engineers. I don't think anyone at L.M. loses sleep over moronic statements regarding the styling. :rotflmao:

 

oh- and your "source" (where anyone can apparently edit anything they want) notes a missile that never even made it to production- the 27AE. Even if you grant it 100% accuracy- I doubt Raytheon has a "wikipedia" posting dept.

 

Oh and please- show me the second part. The part where the United States spent 15+ years & BILLIONS on the literal re- definement of air combat as a direct reaction to a single SAM system. :megalol: Help me find that press release- I'd love to see it.

[Pilotasso]

giving long range to a radar missile wont do much good against an F-22 since you cant pick it up untill you fall under the range of heat seekers.

[tflash]

I am very sceptical radar guided missiles will be an answer to the F-22. On the contrary, I wonder if there will not be a new lease of life for the heaters. I saw a picture of the image the new AIM-9X has of a target, and it seems these advanced IR seekers are so sensitive that it occurs to me a supercruising jet becomes again a very "visible" target.

 

I guess with F-22, Eurofighter, Rafale and Mig-29OVT the heater dogfight will be back.

 

Another possible indicatiion for this is that while Nato aircraft proved very capable in matching state-of-the art SAM systems, MANPADS and other IR missiles still prove extremely lethal. Modern aircraft are packed with sophisticated flares and yet many fear the igla and the likes for death.

 

Can you imagine a Lockon dogfight wth Eurofighter and Mig29OVT?

[Guest IguanaKing]

While we're speculating ;) ...have any of the current Russian A-A radar missiles been used in combat successfully?

 

I appreciate what the wikipedia article has to offer, but, again, its public domain info...and even af.mil journalists have been known to be just as clueless as any other journalist about military hardware. So, such internet articles should be taken with a grain of salt. The FSB tends to keep a pretty tight lid on actual figures going anywhere, much like the OSI does in the US. :smilewink:

 

If it were a "We gotta do this or we're all gonna die in 10 minutes" kind of situation, then Russian fighters may maddog some of those R-77s toward the general vicinity of a flight of Raptors and hope like hell they found targets. But, how would anybody know? Could their theoretical war effort afford to do so. :detective: Something with ramjet propulsion has to be fairly pricey.

[Pilotasso]

The thing is, that, realy none of the russians best has ever entered in combat and the only comparison we have is F-15/16's VS Mig-29A's and Su-27VS mig-29A's, where the western fighters used AMRAAms and Su's used R-27's. In all likelyhood the r-77 is not as good as AMRAAM but although admited by their own engineers, theres realy no way to know how worse it is, if the difference is not so great that the 77 would score some points or if it sucks so badly that you would be better off using SARH misiles but with longer range. Theres no way to tell realy.

[GGTharos]

Apparently US fighter pilots respect the 77 quite a bit. 'Worse than the AMRAAM' might be true, but may also be academic - ie. it might not be within the realm of possibility for a fighter pilot to compare ... both will kill ya the same.

 

The enormous advantage for the 22 is that it's stealthed against weapons all around, wether radar or IR. IR guided missiles are also only capable of seeing 'so far' and they are not much different than radar guided missiles in this respect unless they're looking at your afterburning tailpipe.

 

At a distance, also, aircraft and flares look about the same to an IR guided missile :) It's close up that you really need to worry about.

[Force_Feedback]

I guess such 'dogfights' wouldn't last long, with all the off-bore missiles, it's just a matter of first look, first shoot, no actual dogfighting, let alone a traditional merge. And even when somebody is on someone's six, the backward capable ir missile will still be effective, so there is no 'dogfight' anymore. Hence my pledge for the aim-9P, and to bring back the missile dogfights.

 

And, if, I mean *if* there would be a gunzo dogfight, the most agile fighter is the logical, but not the obvious winner in such, very, very rare case. And I imagine that planes with 'autofire' like the Gripen would have a slight advantage in snapshots

[Guest IguanaKing]

Oh...but don't forget how badly the F-15s got smoked by Su-27s in scripted exercises. :smilewink: Sorry...just had to throw that in there, because I'm sure someone will bring it up at some point...someone always does. :D

 

Yup, the only true test is actual, fangs-out combat. A couple of the Mars probes looked damn fine on paper too, but they failed miserably. Which is kinda funny, since their NASA ancestors were landing probes on Mars in the 70's. Maybe engineers should go back to the slide-rule. ;)

[Guest IguanaKing]

Apparently US fighter pilots respect the 77 quite a bit. 'Worse than the AMRAAM' might be true, but may also be academic - ie. it might not be within the realm of possibility for a fighter pilot to compare ... both will kill ya the same.

 

Oh, absolutely!!! You don't win a fight by underestimating your enemy, that much is certain. :D

 

I think that's much of the reason behind the F-15, and now the F-22...not underestimating the competition.

[GGTharos]

Actually, the merge will still exist - the proof of this is the fact that the Raptor was built to be -very- agile. You don't need this for missile defense - missile defense is all about G's and violence.

You need agility in the merge and in a dogfight, though.

 

Consider than in many cases you may be required to VID the target and decide to engage from there. Shots with missiles against very high LOS rate shots are -still- not very viable even this day, even with the new weapons, so the merge will still be there, and it'll still be about bringing your nose around as quickly as you can.

Also note that all new planes have a gun. There's just this gap that a missile -cannot- fill yet.