fixed internally Super slow .50 caliber rounds

[TLTeo]

Is there information about the ammo used later in the Sabre's life (including by export customers)? I know it's famous for the Korean war, but really it was widely used for another 10+ years all around the world. If I understand correctly our Sabre is a late F model too, so it should be fairly close to an export jet.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Thomas McKelvey, I listened to the audio book so I can’t quiet find the page numbers yet. I think I might have another source once I can find my copy of Wagner.

 

Thanks, it'd be fantastic if you did. I'm still going to hit up my local library system to see if they have a copy I can checkout.

[Devil_Lettuce]

Thanks, it'd be fantastic if you did. I'm still going to hit up my local library system to see if they have a copy I can checkout.

 

The North American Sabre Ray Wagner 1963 P.145 London ISBN 978-0356014401

 

There is probably more in his second book American Combat Planes – Second Edition. New York: Doubleday and Company, 1968. ISBN 0-370-00094-3.

[Devil_Lettuce]

https://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Visit/Museum-Exhibits/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/196388/f-86-sabre-vs-mig-15-armament/

 

Plenty of information at the National AF museum website. A phone call or email to the curator will yield easy primary resources.

 

 

https://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mg/50_ammo.html

 

And another nice page discussing the different .50 caliber ammunition.

 

 

http://quanonline.com/training-manuals/fifty/fifty-2.html

 

Excerpt from the AN/M3 Manual

 

 

AMMUNITION

 

 

118. General.

 

The information in this section, pertaining to the several types of cartridges authorized for use in this machine gun, includes a description of the cartridges, means of identification, care, use, and ballistic data. Detailed information pertaining to small-arms ammunition is contained in TM 9-1990.

 

119. Classification.

 

a. Based upon type of bullet and use, the ammunition for this machine gun is classified as armor-piercing, armor-piercing-incendiary, armor-piercing-incindiary-tracer, ball, incendiary, tracer, headlight tracer, and dummy.

 

b. Armor-piercing cartridges are for use against armored aircraft and lightly armored vehicles, concrete shelters, and other bullet-resisting targets. The bullet consists of three parts: a gilding metal jacket, a hardened core of tungsten-chrome or manganese-molybdenum steel, and a point filler of an antimony-lead alloy. The overall length of the bullet is 2.31 inches.

 

c. Armor-piercing-incerrcliary cartridges are for use against targets where the armor-piercing and incendiary effects are both desired. The bullet is similar to the armor-piercing bullet, except that the point filler is replaced by an incendiary composition. The length of the bullet is 2.31 inches for the API cartridge M8 and is 1.935 inches for the API cartridge T49.

 

d. Armor-piercing-incendiary-tracer cartridges are for use as in "c" above, with the tracer added to reveal the path of the bullet.

 

e. Ball cartridges are for use against personnel and light material targets. The bullet consists of three parts : a gilding metal jacket, a soft steel core, and a point filler of an antimony-lead alloy. The overall length of the bullet is 2.31 inches.

 

f. Incendiary cartridges are for use against flammable targets, especially fuel and oil systems on aircraft and vehicles. The bullet consists of a gilding metal jacket, a hollow cylindrical steel body, a leadantimony base slug, and a core and point filler of incendiary composition. The bullet is 2.35 inches long.

 

g. Tracer cartridges are used to reveal the path of the bullet. Secondary purposes are for incendiary effect and for signaling. The bullet consists of three parts: a gilding metal jacket or a gilding metalclad steel jacket, a hardened lead slug that fills the forward end of the jacket, and tracer and igniter compositions that fill the balance. Unlike the bullets for the armor-piercing and ball cartridges, this bullet. is cylindrical to the base. The base is open to permit the propelling charge to ignite the tracer composition.

 

h. Headlight tracer cartridges are similar to tracer cartridges except that the trace is appruximutely three times more brilliant when viewed from the front than the tracer cartridge described in "g" above.

 

i. Dumny cartridges are for use in training. They may also be used for testing the mechanism of the gun. The bullet consists of a gilding metal jacket or gilding metal-clad steel jacket only. The bullet is 2.40 inches long and has a cylindrica1 base.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Devil_Lettuce

[Yo-Yo]

So, the fantastic M33 has the same muzzle velocity as M8, for example.

[NineLine]

All of that is decent info, but we need clear documentation it was used in our F-86. The gun itself was used all over for different things, it's possible to find the ammo used, but not in reference to the Sabre if you see what I mean.

 

 

https://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Visit/Museum-Exhibits/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/196388/f-86-sabre-vs-mig-15-armament/

 

Plenty of information at the National AF museum website. A phone call or email to the curator will yield easy primary resources.

 

 

https://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mg/50_ammo.html

 

And another nice page discussing the different .50 caliber ammunition.

 

 

http://quanonline.com/training-manuals/fifty/fifty-2.html

 

Excerpt from the AN/M3 Manual

 

 

AMMUNITION

 

 

118. General.

 

The information in this section, pertaining to the several types of cartridges authorized for use in this machine gun, includes a description of the cartridges, means of identification, care, use, and ballistic data. Detailed information pertaining to small-arms ammunition is contained in TM 9-1990.

 

119. Classification.

 

a. Based upon type of bullet and use, the ammunition for this machine gun is classified as armor-piercing, armor-piercing-incendiary, armor-piercing-incindiary-tracer, ball, incendiary, tracer, headlight tracer, and dummy.

 

b. Armor-piercing cartridges are for use against armored aircraft and lightly armored vehicles, concrete shelters, and other bullet-resisting targets. The bullet consists of three parts: a gilding metal jacket, a hardened core of tungsten-chrome or manganese-molybdenum steel, and a point filler of an antimony-lead alloy. The overall length of the bullet is 2.31 inches.

 

c. Armor-piercing-incerrcliary cartridges are for use against targets where the armor-piercing and incendiary effects are both desired. The bullet is similar to the armor-piercing bullet, except that the point filler is replaced by an incendiary composition. The length of the bullet is 2.31 inches for the API cartridge M8 and is 1.935 inches for the API cartridge T49.

 

d. Armor-piercing-incendiary-tracer cartridges are for use as in "c" above, with the tracer added to reveal the path of the bullet.

 

e. Ball cartridges are for use against personnel and light material targets. The bullet consists of three parts : a gilding metal jacket, a soft steel core, and a point filler of an antimony-lead alloy. The overall length of the bullet is 2.31 inches.

 

f. Incendiary cartridges are for use against flammable targets, especially fuel and oil systems on aircraft and vehicles. The bullet consists of a gilding metal jacket, a hollow cylindrical steel body, a leadantimony base slug, and a core and point filler of incendiary composition. The bullet is 2.35 inches long.

 

g. Tracer cartridges are used to reveal the path of the bullet. Secondary purposes are for incendiary effect and for signaling. The bullet consists of three parts: a gilding metal jacket or a gilding metalclad steel jacket, a hardened lead slug that fills the forward end of the jacket, and tracer and igniter compositions that fill the balance. Unlike the bullets for the armor-piercing and ball cartridges, this bullet. is cylindrical to the base. The base is open to permit the propelling charge to ignite the tracer composition.

 

h. Headlight tracer cartridges are similar to tracer cartridges except that the trace is appruximutely three times more brilliant when viewed from the front than the tracer cartridge described in "g" above.

 

i. Dumny cartridges are for use in training. They may also be used for testing the mechanism of the gun. The bullet consists of a gilding metal jacket or gilding metal-clad steel jacket only. The bullet is 2.40 inches long and has a cylindrica1 base.

[Devil_Lettuce]

All of that is decent info, but we need clear documentation it was used in our F-86. The gun itself was used all over for different things, it's possible to find the ammo used, but not in reference to the Sabre if you see what I mean.

 

Is ED in agreement that the F-86F was armed with the Browning AN/M3 Aircraft Machine Gun or is argued by ED that the F-86F was armed with the M2HB Heavy Machine Gun?

 

The other thing is the AIM-9B was not used operationally during the Korean War. By the introduction of the AIM-9B the stocks of WW2 standard M2 Ball were long gone as the P/F-51 was out of service.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Devil_Lettuce

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

I'm still having trouble finding a good description of the M33 used by USAF. It's a pity that not every single dry and boring government publication made the jump into the digital age. :joystick:

 

So, the fantastic M33 has the same muzzle velocity as M8, for example.

 

In that range, though the M33 seems to have near identical performance to the M20 API-T as described in the ballistic data tables provided in the Fighter Weapons manual described by the USAF. It should be noted that:

 

-M20 API-T was available as far back as WWII.

-The USAF Fighter Weapons manual is discussing fighter employment of the F-86 in this publication and some limited employment of the F-84. By '56, the limitations of the ThunderJet were well understood and it wasn't the USAF's first choice for fighter. Mostly, it was relegated to ground attack roles.

-The tables that are present are indicative of an air to air employment of each round.

 

Aside from Devil_Lettuce book citation, it's hard to connect the M33 to the F-86F to that degree, but we can connect the M2 AP, the M8 API, and the M20 API-T to it.

 

The North American Sabre Ray Wagner 1963 P.145 London ISBN 978-0356014401

 

There is probably more in his second book American Combat Planes – Second Edition. New York: Doubleday and Company, 1968. ISBN 0-370-00094-3.

 

Alright, thanks. More study material! I've found it for a really good price, too. At least, compared to the kind of hurt that Yefim Gordon's textbooks will put on your wallet.

Edited March 12, 2020 by MiG21bisFishbedL

[Foul Ole Ron]

Is ED in agreement that the F-86F was armed with the Browning AN/M3 Aircraft Machine Gun or is argued by ED that the F-86F was armed with the M2HB Heavy Machine Gun?

 

I think they agree that it's the AN/M3 as they upped the rate of fire to 1200 some time back to reflect this. Also the F-86 LUA has:

 

tbl.category = CAT_GUN_MOUNT

tbl.name = "m3_browning"

tbl.supply =

{

shells = {"M2_50_aero_AP","M20_50_aero_APIT"},

mixes = {{1,2,2,1,2,2}}, --

count = 267,

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Can anyone find accurate data on F-86F belting? Since the Jug and the 'Stang are getting M8 and M20 rounds, giving them to the Sabre seems like the best step forward since we know, for sure, it used those rounds.

[Foul Ole Ron]

Can anyone find accurate data on F-86F belting? Since the Jug and the 'Stang are getting M8 and M20 rounds, giving them to the Sabre seems like the best step forward since we know, for sure, it used those rounds.

 

In F-86 Sabre Aces it mentions "2 lead ball rounds, 2 API and 1 tracer in groups of five". How that accurate that is I can't say for sure though. Per the F-86 LUA it already uses the M20:

 

tbl.category = CAT_GUN_MOUNT

tbl.name = "m3_browning"

tbl.supply =

{

shells = {"M2_50_aero_AP","M20_50_aero_APIT"},

mixes = {{1,2,2,1,2,2}}, --

count = 267,

 

NineLine - as you can see in the LUA there's 267 rounds per gun for a total of 1602. However the flight manual T.O. 1F-86F-1 in Section 4, Page 28 quotes "a maximum of 300 rounds of ammunition is provided for each gun" which would be 1800 total. From what I can see the earlier versions of the Sabre used 267 rounds however appears the F version used 300. I'm not sure if in practice though pilots flew with 267 due to stoppage/jam issues if fully loaded.

[msalama]

I know what I have seen and experienced.

 

Don't we all? The thing is, you either provide quantifiable evidence or wait in vain. And this is so regadless of whether you're right or wrong.

 

BTW, did you notice that ED has admitted there're some inaccuracies in their weapon modelling?

[Devil_Lettuce]

Don't we all? The thing is, you either provide quantifiable evidence or wait in vain. And this is so regadless of whether you're right or wrong.

 

BTW, did you notice that ED has admitted there're some inaccuracies in their weapon modelling?

 

 

I mean we are arguing about the ammunition and it's velocity meanwhile links provided have shown the published velocity for the weapon. The velocities are attempted to remain constant so weapon sight's don't always need to be recalibrate when changing from training ammo to service. But hey, the published information from the Air Force Museum isn't good enough and we don't know what manual ED is looking at saying this is gold. I guarantee they don't have a SME that was a crew chief in Korea telling then this is the stuff we loaded.

[NineLine]

Guys please don't fight with each other, we are willing to take any information anyone has and look at it, we want to get the heating and cooling improved for starters, but if there is more info, I am willing to review. Thanks.

[Foul Ole Ron]

we are willing to take any information anyone has and look at it, we want to get the heating and cooling improved for starters, but if there is more info, I am willing to review. Thanks.

 

Can you also please take a look at where in the F-86 LUA there's 267 rounds per gun for a total of 1602. However the flight manual T.O. 1F-86F-1 in Section 4, Page 28 quotes "a maximum of 300 rounds of ammunition is provided for each gun" which would be 1800 total. From what I can see the earlier versions of the Sabre used 267 rounds however appears the F version used 300. I'm not sure if in practice though pilots flew with 267 due to stoppage/jam issues if fully loaded.

[NineLine]

Can you also please take a look at where in the F-86 LUA there's 267 rounds per gun for a total of 1602. However the flight manual T.O. 1F-86F-1 in Section 4, Page 28 quotes "a maximum of 300 rounds of ammunition is provided for each gun" which would be 1800 total. From what I can see the earlier versions of the Sabre used 267 rounds however appears the F version used 300. I'm not sure if in practice though pilots flew with 267 due to stoppage/jam issues if fully loaded.

 

Thanks for the reminded, I think you said this once already I will look into it.

[Art-J]

We've got great cooling improvement in latest OB, thanks for that one. Sure, long bursts tend to increase dispersion quickly as they were, but guns tend to cool down to initial state and tight dispersion quite quickly as well. Tested in some ground strafing only, but it's already a welcomed and very noticeable difference.

 

Haven't checked if gyro gunsight still lags behind, though.

[NineLine]

Oh good, the cooling made it in already? I was trying to ask internally where that was.

[Squiffy]

So cooling is in the "online beta" update? Forgive my ignorance of jargon at this stage. Thanks NineLIne and everyone else for all you've done. A point of logic about how rounds were loaded...if the grain count or muzzle velocity of rounds differed too much, you would see it in the dispersion pattern and best case accuracy while shooting. I think there is plenty of gun camera footage to show that did not really happen. And remember this is evidence used to confirm kills. Thanks again.

[Art-J]

Oh good, the cooling made it in already? I was trying to ask internally where that was.

 

Yeah, looks like it did. Granted, I don't know how much time it took me between each strafing run, a minute maybe (?), but in previous versions it sure as hell wasn't enough :D.

 

I tested only after reading in Mustang section that it got some gun improvement as well.

 

@Squiffy, mind you, from A-to-A combat perspective dispersion still rises quite quickly when shooting long bursts, so firing discipline is necessary, but at least it goes tight again after couple of dozen of seconds.

Edited March 23, 2020 by Art-J

[NineLine]

Ok, good to know, I am trying to track down all the gun changes and make sure they are in or on their way in.

[Squiffy]

Thanks Art-J. I didn't see any changes in the heat equations in the F-86.lua for the Beta. Do I need to look at the official install? I have done so much editing in Beta, that's the one I normally use.

[NineLine]

Just a heads up, from what I am hearing these changes are not yet public yet. Thanks.

[Art-J]

I'll have to eat my words then :D. I really thought guns seemed to be cooling faster. But then I don't fly the Sabre all that often and shoot its guns even less, so they probably were worse in my memory than in reality.

[iFoxRomeo]

Thanks for the reminded, I think you said this once already I will look into it.

 

 

 

 

 

Fox