About the TRIM (from devs)

[dimitriov]

Hi guys.

 

So some of you currently are thinking that TRIM isn't working correctly in 1.5.4.

 

I won't personally throw you the stone a da face as long as I just spent 2 h with Pat because I was thinking the same :)

 

So, to explain to you :

 

On other helicopters, like the Kamov-50, the classic (Not central position trim mode) way of trimming is a bit hard. When for example you trim your cyclic forward. Ingame, the Cyclic gets centered on the new position. But IRL, your physical joy is still pushed forward, and so adds a second action on the ingame cyclic.

 

To sum it up : I Trim my helicopter, and I have to recenter ASAP my physical joy because it causes a violent push on the ingame cyclic. It's quite uncomfortable, I think we all agree with this.

 

So Pat decided to code a different system : Your TRIM will keep the current angle of the Gazelle itself, not the cyclic one. Obviously, modifying your horizontal or vertical speed will cause this angle to get modified, it's not a "cheat" option.

 

So if like me you were pushing hard your cyclic forward, push on the TRIM and then bringing your physical joy centered as fast as possible, well, that's very simple, it won't work nice.

 

Instead, simply place your Gazelle carefully at the angle you want to keep, and then push on the TRIM, and well, you can move back your physical joy centered, there won't be any "push forward shit", you're fine.

 

I hope that I was clear, if not please tell me, I too was very frustrated because I didn't manage to understand why my Gazelle didn't Trim like my Kamov. But, honestly, it feels far more comfortable to me like this.

 

Anyway, if not, be advised that once the FFB support will be released, you will be able to use the standard Kamov-50 method.

 

From France with love ;)

 

Nicolas

Edited June 29, 2016 by dimitriov

[Flagrum]

If I understand that correctly, the new way is what the other DCS helos call "Central Position Trimmer Mode".

 

The "Default" mode is that the current position of the cyclic is treated as virtual center. But as the physical joystick is still deflected, this physical input gets added to the virtual center. The effect is, that additional input affects the helos attitude. As a small remedy of this problem, this default mode usually gradually sets the new virtual center so that the user has some time (iirc within one second) to re-center his physical stick. The Gazelle does not do this and this causes those sudden nose down bumps in flight...

 

Then there is that "Central Position Trimmer" Mode. This takes the current cyclic position as new virtual center and then ignores all other inputs of the physical joystick untill it is re-centered by the user (and thus, coincidences then physical center and virtual center at the same position). This is what Pat is now going to implement - if I understood you correctly. Great news!

 

(and then there is FFB trim, which is separate from the other two options: the physical stick is moved to the new virtual center - which are in that very moment the same - and programs the FFB motors to treat that position as the new, physical, "force center").

Edited June 29, 2016 by Flagrum

[grunf]

Central position trimmer mode is a must for non FFB sticks, I hope that is what's gonna be implemented.

[dimitriov]

Oh god...

 

Well guys forget about this, i will make you a video, it should be more explicit, you'll have it before friday ;)

 

Nicolas

[Flagrum]

Oh god...

 

Well guys forget about this, i will make you a video, it should be more explicit, you'll have it before friday ;)

 

Nicolas

Huh? You mean "Central Position Trimmer" Mode is not what Pat is implementing now? So he ... is re-inventing the wheel? :huh:

[dimitriov]

No no no I'll explain in the video ;)

 

Nicolas

[grunf]

No no no I'll explain in the video ;)

 

Nicolas

Looking forward to it! :)

[Focha]

I got it.

 

Fly the aircraft, stabilize the attitude you what, press button, move stick to center, release button, fly the aircraft.

 

It's good for non FFB joystick.

 

Good work!

 

Sent from Tapatalk via Samsung Alpha.

[Deezle]

I got it.

 

Fly the aircraft, stabilize the attitude you what, press button, move stick to center, release button, fly the aircraft.

 

It's good for non FFB joystick.

 

Good work!

 

Sent from Tapatalk via Samsung Alpha.

The trim for the Dreamfoil 407 on X-plane works like that, I actually like it.

[Pat01]

Hi Gents

The "normal" way to use the magnetic brake is :

1- manoeuver your helicopter to the wanted attitude

2- press and release the magnetic brake button (same as T key, no hold needed)

that's all

The helicopetr should try to maintain the trimmed attitude.

[dimitriov]

Well so forget about the video, I guess it's clearer than my loooooooong post ^^

[dimitriov]

Okay guys so :

 

We identified the issue. Currently, you won't be able, in multiplayer, to use the magnetic TRIM on the Sa-342L if the mission you use is originally a mission which comes from the stable branch.

 

We are currently comparing the original stable version with the BETA version (with Sa-342L) added, to see if we find the issue. Perhaps will the stable update to 1.5.4 will solve the issue by itself...

 

Nicolas

Edited June 30, 2016 by dimitriov

[Pikey]

About three times in this post I thought I understood what was implemented then it went with the next post.

 

It feels like central postiion trimmer mode, it looks like central position trimmer mode, Press and release trim, move stick to centre, when stick meets centre it then allows new input..but whats not central trimmer mode about it?

Edited June 30, 2016 by Pikey
more description

[Sarge55]

Hi Gents

The "normal" way to use the magnetic brake is :

1- manoeuver your helicopter to the wanted attitude

2- press and release the magnetic brake button (same as T key, no hold needed)

that's all

The helicopetr should try to maintain the trimmed attitude.

 

That is slightly different to how I do it. (Non FFB)

 

1- Press and hold the magnetic brake button and maneuver to my desired attitude.

2- Release the magnetic brake button once it is how I want it.

3- Return cyclic to center.

 

I'll have to give your method a try. Doesn't the SAS fight your corrections using your method?

[Flagrum]

About three times in this post I thought I understood what was implemented then it went with the next post.

+1 :cry:

 

Hi Gents

The "normal" way to use the magnetic brake is :

1- manoeuver your helicopter to the wanted attitude

2- press and release the magnetic brake button (same as T key, no hold needed)

that's all

The helicopetr should try to maintain the trimmed attitude.

 

The question is, what do we do with our physical (joy-)stick then? The only thing that makes sense (to me) would be to re-center it so that no pressure has to be applied to it against it's springs (aka "default mode" or "central position mode"). If this new implementation does not require the joystick to be re-centered but instead to just be kept at the current position ... then why bother to use mag.brake anyways?

[Aginor]

[Aginor]

+1

I don't get it completely either.

 

Really curious how it will feel! :)

 

EDIT sorry browser error created a double post.

[Rogue Trooper]

"Instead, simply place your Gazelle carefully at the angle you want to keep, and then push on the TRIM, and well, you can move back your physical joy centered, there won't be any "push forward shit", you're fine."

 

So does this mean there is an "soft" input delay at the trimmed "zero" position allowing time to re-centre the joystick within a comfortable time?

 

Belsimteks trim is the smoothest trim In game so far... is this something similar?

[Zee Pet]

If one of the people 'in the know' could just explain how they seem to think central position mode works, and then also explain how this new fancy fandangled Gazelle trim works, that'd be nice. Just a simple 1 second delay is all we need to return our physical joystick to center, once we hit the trim button, before the helicopter starts accepting input- and a rudder trim mode like every other helicopter in the game. Are the testers actually testing this stuff and do they actually play DCS?

[wolle]

I also don't understand the description of the trimming process. A video would be greatly appreciated.

[Fredo_69]

If one of the people 'in the know' could just explain how they seem to think central position mode works, and then also explain how this new fancy fandangled Gazelle trim works, that'd be nice. Just a simple 1 second delay is all we need to return our physical joystick to center, once we hit the trim button, before the helicopter starts accepting input- and a rudder trim mode like every other helicopter in the game. Are the testers actually testing this stuff and do they actually play DCS?

 

I second to this frustration...

[Ramsay]

To sum it up : I Trim my helicopter, and I have to recenter ASAP my physical joy because it causes a violent push on the ingame cyclic. It's quite uncomfortable, I think we all agree with this.

 

So Pat decided to code a different system : Your TRIM will keep the current angle of the Gazelle itself, not the cyclic one. Obviously, modifying your horizontal or vertical speed will cause this angle to get modified, it's not a "cheat" option.

This sounds a terrible solution. Instead of trimming the position of the cyclic, it's an attitude autopilot.

 

Edit: With SAS enabled: the magnetic brake release (TRIM) adjusts both cyclic position and SAS attitude/heading in the real helicopter

 

I never had an issue using the normal work around used in other modules -

 

Spring Centred Joystick

 

 

1. 
   
2. Press and HOLD trimmer button to apply magnetic brake (cyclic temporally locked/disconnected from input).
   
3. Allow Joystick to CENTRE, there's no rush while the button is held and flight is stable.
   
4. RELEASE trimmer button, joystick position is linked to current cyclic position, there shouldn't be a input 'spike'.
   
5. RCTL+ENTER Controls indicator shows cyclic position (offset from centre).
   

Force Feedback Joystick

 

1. 
   
2. Press and HOLD trimmer button to apply magnetic brake.
   
3. Joystick adjusts FFB to CENTRE to the current position.
   
4. RELEASE trimmer button, FFB centre is set/works as normal.
   
5. RCTL+ENTER Controls indicator shows cyclic position (offset from centre).
   

I'm not sure I've understood you, I hope not, but it sounds like -

 

Current/Proposed Trim System

 

1. 
   
2. Pitch down -5° and level flight
   
3. Press and release trimmer (magnetic brake).
   
4. CENTRE joystick
   
5. Gazelle will hold pitch down -5° and level flight (even with SAS off?)
   
6. RCTL+ENTER Controls indicator shows no change in cyclic position (still centred), even though the Gazelle's attitude has changed.
   

I have to admit to feeling I'm flying with/against an unseen autopilot pilot/SAS at times but understand this is a early iteration of the FM. Edited July 4, 2016 by Ramsay
Needed to add a correction as SAS attitude/heading is adjusted with the cyclic brake release

[Zee Pet]

 

I have to admit to feeling I'm flying with/against an unseen autopilot pilot/SAS at times but understand this is a early iteration of the FM.

 

Can't be since their SME, RL Gazelle pilot said that its close enough to the real thing. Having an attitude hold trim is exactly whats on the KA-50 right now- again maybe no one from Polychop uses the Ka-50 so they don't know, but I digress. But lets just think about how this trim method works in the KA-50: Unless you have the FD button on, you have to hold the trim switch in, fly to where everything is comfortable, then release the trim switch and everything will hold more or less where you leave it, it feels NATURAL. Now If you push the stick and tap trim in the KA-50: your stick position is kept at that point, as well as the autopilot parameters try to hold the degree of pitch and bank at the point that you tap the trim switch, MEANWHILE if the cyclic was out of the %authority that the autopilot has, the autopilot will fight the cyclic input back as much as it can to meet its parameters, leading to awkward attitudes and general bad stuff. We DON'T need the trim wheel reinvented, if a dev had an idea on how trim should work, then its no longer 'thats how it is on the real thing' its creative licence not that its bad but this 'attitude hold' however is way different from what everyone is used to and I can't possibly see how it'll end well with everyone already skeptical of the SAS and its invisible hand. I know this is sounding super cynical but I believe this is what a lot of us are feeling right now.

[nomdeplume]

Is the magnetic brake trim working the same in the -L and -M versions in the current open beta? The -L version seems to work exactly how I would expect, while with the -M I still have no intuitive sense of what it's doing.

 

Edit: never mind, seems -M in newly created missions works the same as the -L. Fixed my older test mission by deleting and re-adding the -M.

Edited July 3, 2016 by nomdeplume

[anlq]

I found the solution for fixing trim not working on some aircraft (RAlt+J then RAlt+J again). But since SA342 doesn't have RAlt+J, this solution doesn't work on SA342.