Operation "Blue Flag" - 24/7 PvP Campaign - ROUND 8

[Toxic]

to be honest if you do this on the Unicom freq I'm going to tell you to shut it. But I guess if you find a good group of guys that want to do it a little hard it works

[Panhead]

Good idea but no one is going to do this.

 

i do :)

 

except for one thing. i do not announce number of a/c in flight when taxiing to active. it's not SOP for wartime. civilian airspace in peacetime, yes. but not wartime.

 

doesn't matter to be honest, and i'm being pedantic, really - especially since we do not have real ATC that can look out his window and there is no cross frequency usage by red or blue monitoring the uncontrolled airspace - but... whatev's. :D

 

i still dial it in and state my intentions on local ATC channel.

[Panhead]

to be honest if you do this on the Unicom freq I'm going to tell you to shut it. But I guess if you find a good group of guys that want to do it a little hard it works

 

if people are jibber jabbering on guard... yea. they need to stfu.

[Voodooflies]

You can do that when you have a full group of people doing it for a single airfield but when you have 1 guy for all airfields then you need to compromise even more.

 

From what I've seen so far, ATC channel have plenty of room for traffic related coms now with SRS. Moreover the only ones who have to actually transmit something on the net are lonewolves and flight package leaders. Wingmen don't have to worry about this.

[levanoga]

From what I've seen so far, ATC channel have plenty of room for traffic related coms now with SRS. Moreover the only ones who have to actually transmit something on the net are lonewolves and flight package leaders. Wingmen don't have to worry about this.

 

This is of course in a perfect scenario where your whole team starts at the same time and you only need to talk to the flight leads, which in Blue Flag happened how many times?

 

Not dissing you or anything but in most cases GCI is also ATC and since Blue Flag is an open event with people joining all the time and not exactly forming proper flights it can get very crowded.

 

Simple radio also doesn't give you much freedom as you can only listen to a max of 2 or 3 freqs at the same time. That's why 124.00 and 251.000 are used for all ATC related things on RED and BLUE and the level of ATC comms you suggest would never work as there would be too much comms for a single person to handle and would drag out things even further.

 

And that's why we need to figure out a even more simpler way of doing it.

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

The more simple thing would be to tune into that specific airfield frequency to avoid making one channel an ATC clusterf**k

 

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[RAZBAM_ELMO]

Also having more than one gci on helps too but nor many people who play DCS want to be GCI. Few, very few.

 

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[levanoga]

The more simple thing would be to tune into that specific airfield frequency to avoid making one channel an ATC clusterf**k

 

And who is going to be on that freq? Lets say there are 2 players in the forward observer slot, one acting as GCI and the other as ATC.

 

The ATC guy can have total of 3 freqs on which he can receive/transmit and advise aircraft about traffic and other things. The thing is that at the moment there are 10 airfields on each side. He simply cannot listen in on all airfield freqs.

 

For 10 airfields you would need more than 3 guys sitting in the forward observer slot acting as ATC. This is why we have everything on one freq and need to shorten messages as much as possible.

Edited August 4, 2016 by levanoga

[Jester Darrak]

If it's your initial starting point just do the starfighter and slam into the ground. Life back, time saved. /sarcasm

 

 

Eff the ATC, you don't need a player to take over that spot. Just take the freaking left side on take off and landing and tripple (!) check if runway is safe to land or take off. It's what the rules on the 104th are and they are working fine.

 

For landing I suggest an overhead turn to bleed speed, smash on, gears down during downwind and then smoothly turn into final. It takes you one (1!) minute extra and everyone sees your intention and you have enough time to look at the airfiels for any upcoming "confrontations".

 

Out of fuel? You have long time to type in chat or give a short (!) mayday over SR as you're going slow anyway.

 

Lost a wing? You shouldn't be flying anymore in the first place - use sarcasm.

 

Burning engine? You'll be seen from 20NM out so don't worry, they will let you land first.

 

As you see, there really is no need for ATC comms unless you want to record a ultra realistic video for your 14 youtube subscribers. People just need to use their brain. ;)

[microvax]

I think its really about how reliable and communicative pilots you have at hand.

 

And communicative includes people beeing honest about what they think they can do and what they think they cant.

 

 

Two prime examples. Had a two ship mirage flight and a two ship f5e flight the same night.

 

Both didn accomplish their mission but the mirage flight was great to work with, was realistic about expected outcome and technically had the more insane task, meanwhile the f5 flight was blaming and crowding comms all over the place.

 

Its not the task, more the people that make people not wanna go GCI. :D

At least that is the case for me sometimes.

 

 

EDIT: Thanks for the ATC calls introduction. Will give it a try if there is time. :)

The only thing that really annoys me if people are crowding GCI with ATC calls.

And not even usefull ATC calls. Sometimes I am really a lil bit salty telling them to change to ATC freq. :D

Edited August 4, 2016 by microvax

[Voodooflies]

The more simple thing would be to tune into that specific airfield frequency to avoid making one channel an ATC clusterf**k

 

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+1. Well indeed, I'm agree for this and that would be more realistic. Matching airfield frequency with SRS in order to state intentions, that would allow non SRS users to state their intention aswell by using the vanilla DCS radio panel. Then, channel 1 could be used for something different instead...

[M0ltar]

+1. Well indeed, I'm agree for this and that would be more realistic. Matching airfield frequency with SRS in order to state intentions, that would allow non SRS users to state their intention aswell by using the vanilla DCS radio panel. Then, channel 1 could be used for something different instead...

 

And how to propose doing this when each GCI only has 3 freqs and 10 airfields. Thats 3-4 GCIs just for airfields not including your actual one or ones in the field.

 

Yes, its cool, but its unrealistic in our current environment. Most people want to fly and not GCI.

Edited August 4, 2016 by M0ltar

[Frostie]

The idea is for communication between pilots at a given airfield no ATC needed to organise anything just a clear picture on what is happenening plus a bit of atmosphere thrown in.

[Voodooflies]

And who is going to be on that freq? Lets say there are 2 players in the forward observer slot, one acting as GCI and the other as ATC.

 

The ATC guy can have total of 3 freqs on which he can receive/transmit and advise aircraft about traffic and other things. The thing is that at the moment there are 10 airfields on each side. He simply cannot listen in on all airfield freqs.

 

For 10 airfields you would need more than 3 guys sitting in the forward observer slot acting as ATC. This is why we have everything on one freq and need to shorten messages as much as possible.

 

Well, putting a guy as an ATC is more complicated that it sounds as if you would like to done it right, the ATC dude should at least know every taxiway of every airfield which isn't really manageable when the server gets overcrowded (I'm not even considering having GND/TWR/APP ATC). You wanna shorten communication, but some communication in aeronautics are standard and cannot be shorten because there are rules. If you guys wanna get someone as an ATC, or use SRS for traffic information there aren't 36 ways to do it.

 

Eff the ATC, you don't need a player to take over that spot. Just take the freaking left side on take off and landing and tripple (!) check if runway is safe to land or take off. It's what the rules on the 104th are and they are working fine.

 

Actually the rules on the 104th is pretty much like "it's okay to use both sides of the same runway as long as everyone remains on the left/right". Not to mention those taxiway takeoffs and stuff... 104th is pretty much okay for casual players looking for some SPAMRAAM genocides and frags. I thought Blue Flag was more oriented towards realism.

 

For landing I suggest an overhead turn to bleed speed, smash on, gears down during downwind and then smoothly turn into final. It takes you one (1!) minute extra and everyone sees your intention and you have enough time to look at the airfiels for any upcoming "confrontations".

 

Call it a break arrival, but once again, there are rules for this... You don't do a break arrival at 500 ft AGL. Am I too much hardcore ?

 

I think its really about how reliable and communicative pilots you have at hand. And communicative includes people beeing honest about what they think they can do and what they think they cant.

 

Indeed.

 

EDIT: Thanks for the ATC calls introduction. Will give it a try if there is time. :)

The only thing that really annoys me if people are crowding GCI with ATC calls.

And not even usefull ATC calls. Sometimes I am really a lil bit salty telling them to change to ATC freq. :D

 

You're welcome. There may be some mistakes, I'm mostly familiar with civilian coms, not military ones. Panhead already pointed out something.

[Voodooflies]

And how to propose doing this when each GCI only has 3 freqs and 10 airfields. Thats 3-4 GCIs just for airfields not including your actual one or ones in the field.

 

Yes, its cool, but its unrealistic in our current environment. Most people want to fly and not GCI.

 

I don't get it, I didn't even mention Forward Observer usage as ATC. The main idea behind this is all about auto-information rather than player controlled ATC who would actually give you instructions.

 

The idea is for communication between pilots at a given airfield no ATC needed to organise anything just a clear picture on what is happenening plus a bit of atmosphere thrown in.

 

Frostie got it, spot on.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Sacha

[M0ltar]

The idea is for communication between pilots at a given airfield no ATC needed to organise anything just a clear picture on what is happenening plus a bit of atmosphere thrown in.

 

I don't get it, I didn't even mention Forward Observer usage as ATC. The main idea behind this is all about auto-information rather than player controlled ATC who would actually give you instructions.

 

 

 

Frostie got it, spot on.

 

I guess I misunderstood. I can support that idea.

[D4n]

Well we don't need TAF yet in DCS as there is no local weather yet in DCS. (Afaik the clouds and wheather are all same across the whole map, only winds can be different with dynamic wheather iirc)

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

Well the point of there not being a dedicated ATC and player monitoring is that if you're sitting an rearming. Buddy calls out he's going to land. You see an f5 not on comms going to take off you wave off that player on comms. That simple. Communicate with each other and crisis' can be avoided that way. I was suggesting tuning into separate ATC freqs because to new people the amount of comms that could be coming through would get confusing and they would feel lost and helpless leading to them not caring and going about things their own way without other people knowing.

 

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[levanoga]

The idea is for communication between pilots at a given airfield no ATC needed to organise anything just a clear picture on what is happenening plus a bit of atmosphere thrown in.

 

I don't get it, I didn't even mention Forward Observer usage as ATC. The main idea behind this is all about auto-information rather than player controlled ATC who would actually give you instructions.

 

That would require SimpleRadio to become mandatory for every player and we all know what the stance on that is by the Blue Flag devs.

 

As long as there is one guy who is not on comms while landing on an airfield you will require a player as ATC alerting and advising you.

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

Or if you're on the ground and see it then help a fellow pilot out and call it for them.

 

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[gregzagk]

Not sure if it's a dumb suggestion as I've only recently started participating, but I feel the addition of waypoints (mostly for fighters) for each PAK area could really help with some organization and commonality for all operations. The waypoint doesn't have to be anywhere specific it could just be placed at the center of each zone box. We have waypoint systems for most aircraft but they are currently unused (besides the A-10C if you want to go through setting a flight plan up).

 

There is only one waypoint (to Sochi) for all to use it as reference (Bullseye).

This is cause the addition of waypoints increase the mission file and will cause stability issues to the participants as they will have to download bigger files.

 

In our case the problem of mission size is even worst cause we have a big number of aircraft slots in the file and many connections at the same time.

 

Greg

[Voodooflies]

That would require SimpleRadio to become mandatory for every player and we all know what the stance on that is by the Blue Flag devs.

 

As long as there is one guy who is not on comms while landing on an airfield you will require a player as ATC alerting and advising you.

 

People gotta be more responsible when joining Blue Flag, it has been said for people applying as GCI since it can makes the difference between victory and defeat, but pilots are aswell concerns. Of course there are people who are still learning out there, or simply got enough and who don't wanna go deeper in the learning process. If pilots would match the radio frequency of their home plate using SRS instead of getting into one common ATC channel for every airfields that would clear the comms even more plus it matches more what's done in real life, so we're aiming more towards realism in that case at the same time. If they do not wish to join SRS, they can AT LEAST use the poor vanilla ATC menu comms to state their intentions, it still something. And well, if they do not want to do at least that, I'd probably start to loose faith. Being not on coms isn't responsible and it's pretty similar to drive a supercar going 310 km/h on the autobahn while being blindfolded...

Edited August 4, 2016 by Sacha

[Rivvern]

Blueflag + SRS = Win.

Having lots of fun! Thank you guys for creating this, i know it is a lot of work.

 

The only problem is the balance. Blue team got more players. So when joining, i wanted to fly the F-5 so had to join team blue, even if id rather join red side for better balance.

 

Though, it doesnt have to be even forces. If you put in a bit of roleplay that bluefor is a stronger force you just need to fly accordingly.

[Panhead]

Hi, just to clarify what I believe Sacha is proposing - and some of you are agreeing with, including some of my own thoughts:

 

A) In very general terms with no specific boundaries, we will assume that each airport is considered uncontrolled - i.e. no Tower/Departure/Ground/Arrival, etc. This means there is no human monitoring and directing aircraft. In games terms, there is no dedicated GCI for traffic purposes.

 

B) Tune your radio to the airport tower frequency. 5 mic clicks will turn the runway lights on... no, wait... Just state your intentions on this frequency. You don't have to be all hard, and do it with proper language, but it will help. Whenever I try to be a gaming pilot I always mush mouth the comms and say shit all jacked up - so it's much easier for me to keep it simple.

 

C) The only people on this freq are those using the airport.

 

We can assume there will be those not using Simple Radio, or TS for that matter. No big deal. As stated earlier, adhere to a side of the runway if you want.

 

Gentlemen, we have to take the initiative. If we throw our hands up and say people won't do this because they can't be assed to do it, or are not on comms, then we remain in a state of chaos. Create the opportunity for society to accept what is being done in a consistent manner, and we thereby establish the norm.

 

 

EDIT:

To those too shy too get on comms: don't be afraid of messing up. I mess up all the time and people ask me WTF you just say? I've been in radio broadcasting for going on 20 years, and I still get apprehensive every time I crack the mic. I've held a pilots' license for nearly that amount of time as well - and I still have to think before talking - and I still jack it up. LOL - just be yourself... be brave... don't be all talkie talkie on open comms... and smile. It's a goddamned game. Serious Business, and I'll cut a mf'er... but a game, nonetheless.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Panhead
stuff

[BitMaster]

I just recently did my first GCI on BlueFlag Red-Side and must admit that comms is everything.

 

There is also no point in wanting the GCI guy to do some occasional ATC as there simply is just no

 

time for that and it distracts a lot.

 

 

Need to get SRS working and see if it makes sense together with TS or SRS alone.

 

One comms for all GCI was good, I would not want to have to choose between the TS pilots and SRS pilots if you cant run both same time etc.. need to see how that works.

 

Maybe someone can explain in detail how SRS TS and DCS need to be set up to have the comms that are desired, Video maybe ??

 

I dont seem to T/R on SRS despite I am connected to BF-SRS-srv, have buttons set for each Radio and PTT, get the green light when pressing but no one answers...dunno...might be a simple thing....

 

Can you ( or should you even ) use TS and SRS same time to cover all players or am I wrong here ??