Advice on the Flanker for BVR or engagements in general?

[JazonXD]

So I've been a long time F-15C driver and I've really gotten used to being spoiled with the superior SA with the Western RWR and generally better SA of the radar as well. I've just started to fly the Flanker recently and I just want some experienced pilots' inputs and "pro-tips" on flying the Flanker into a BVR engagement or just any engagement in general?

 

Also, if there are any specific advice or details you can share about the avionics such as the radar or EOS, that would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks!

[mj3437]

https://drive.google.com/a/mesd.us/file/d/0By_jGRnxUhnUSGNLeGNZS0R1aG8/view

This is a guide I found that has helped.

MJ

[gavagai]

https://drive.google.com/a/mesd.us/file/d/0By_jGRnxUhnUSGNLeGNZS0R1aG8/view

This is a guide I found that has helped.

MJ

 

Quote from the guide:

 

BVR in the Sukhoi is a lost cause. The Su-27 simply can't hold its ground in a fair BVR fight against the F-15C's active radar homing AIM-120B and C AMRAAMS. The R27ER are sluggish and produce a huge smoke trail that will easily be visible, not to mention the fact that you need to keep the aircraft more or less pointing towards the enemy wherease the F-15Cs can just wave off.

 

I can't stress this enough: don't ever go head on against anyone. you will die 90% of the time.

 

Attempting BVR in the Su-27 against Eagles is roughly the same as flying into the ground....

 

[on luring the F-15C into WVR combat] If your battlezone is above the plains and there aren't any mountains close, you may as well fly a Bf 109.

 

It's a humorous read.:)

[AussieGhost789]

That guide doesn't actually say that... Does it?

[Stuge]

Currently the way to go with Flanker against Eagle is stealth and/or numbers. Learn to use vertical scan in IR mode effectively, and use terrain masking, lure them close, and attack with surprise and fury, and you can score lots of kills.

[gavagai]

And when the Straight of Hormuz map comes and combat could be over the ocean?

[kobeshow]

That guide doesn't actually say that... Does it?

 

The guide actually DOES say that, although that it is not necessarily true, it all depends on the circumstances.

All in all the guide is a good starting point and gives a lot of good info about the sensors, but the tactics part is short and leaves some things to be desired (;

[JazonXD]

Thank you for all your responses! The guide is definitely a good read and like Kobe said, it seems to a good place to start, but not detailed enough. As for the vertical scan, I had no idea that it could actually lock beyond 10 miles... Maybe it was Flaming Cliffs days that was the limitation? But anyway, if you have the radar on in the VSS mode, is there a way to lock by radar and not trying to lock by EO? The situation that I imagine is that you can see someone but they are nose hot and not afterburning. The target should be close enough to lock on very quickly using radar, but since the target is is not afterburning and maybe mixed with ground clutter, the EO. It seems from the guide that even if the radar is on, the VSS will still try to only use EO to lock?

[karambiatos]

The guide actually DOES say that, although that it is not necessarily true, it all depends on the circumstances.

All in all the guide is a good starting point and gives a lot of good info about the sensors, but the tactics part is short and leaves some things to be desired (;

I'd say it's a terrible start for the Su-27, flankertraining is much better IMHO.

[kobeshow]

well there are things in there that are useful, like the holding lock button in close combat modes or how to IFF in EO (which sometimes can still give a lock warning), things that are "gamey" and specific to DCS multiplayer, such guides should not be completely dismissed.

Flankertraining is probably the best place to go though, totally agreed.

[DarkFire]

"The R27ER are sluggish"

 

Not even close to being true. The R-27ER has both better acceleration and a higher top speed than either the AIM-120B or C model.

 

 

Some more general points:

 

I'd agree that generally the Su-27 is at a significant disadvantage in a 1-on-1 BVR fight, but going head-to-head against an Eagle in a pure BVR fight is frankly doing it wrong.

 

Plus let's not forget that as a Flanker pilot if you have an AWACS up or EWR available, your HDD gives you better situational awareness than an Eagle driver has.

 

For the Flanker v Eagle situation, as the Flanker driver your ideal situation is to lure the Eagle in to a WVR fight, preferably at below ~6,000m altitude. In a WVR fight your EOS combined with the helmet mounted sight, the off-boresight capabilities of the R-73, your marginally better ITR and STR and ultimate nose authority all combine to give a significant advantage.

 

The trick is surviving to the merge.

 

Don't be afraid to hide in the mountains at low altitude. You have +42% fuel over the Eagle, so even at 1,000m altitude on a full tank you can easily fly 300Km, fight for 5 minutes then fly all the way back to base again. As others have commented, learn to love your EOS, use your radar sparingly, fly around threats using your high cruise speed (85% cruise RPM at 1,000m gets you ~850 Km/h on the deck) and attack from unexpected angles instead of head-on.

Edited September 9, 2016 by DarkFire

[kobeshow]

"The R27ER are sluggish"

 

Not even close to being true. The R-27ER has both better acceleration and a higher top speed than either the AIM-120B or C model.

 

I'd agree that generally the Su-27 is at a significant disadvantage in a 1-on-1 BVR fight, but going head-to-head against an Eagle in a pure BVR fight is frankly doing it wrong.

 

Plus let's not forget that as a Flanker pilot if you have an AWACS up or EWR available, your HDD gives you better situational awareness than an Eagle driver has.

 

For the Flanker v Eagle situation, as the Flanker driver your ideal situation is to lure the Eagle in to a WVR fight, preferably at below ~6,000m altitude. In a WVR fight your EOS combined with the helmet mounted sight, the off-boresight capabilities of the R-73, your marginally better ITR and STR and ultimate nose authority all combine to give a significant advantage.

 

The trick is surviving to the merge.

 

Don't be afraid to hide in the mountains at low altitude. You have +42% fuel over the Eagle, so even at 1,000m altitude on a full tank you can easily fly 300Km, fight for 5 minutes then fly all the way back to base again. As others have commented, learn to love your EOS, use your radar sparingly, fly around threats using your high cruise speed (85% cruise RPM at 1,000m gets you ~850 Km/h on the deck) and attack from unexpected angles instead of head-on.

 

This is true, but like all tips with specifics they are specific to certain situations and do not always apply.

For example: In the dynamic BlueFlag PvP campaign we have human GCI that depends on EWRs and the fighter's radars to get a picture, I have seen a lot of people doing their "flying low, EO only-routine" leaving the controller blind and unable to send them help in time. Similarly in this event you can't afford to have a short time on station (I know you exaggerated a bit with 5min but still)

 

@OP: You need to adapt your style of flying to the task at hand, if you are on the 104th for the airquake and K/D then low+EOS is your best bet probably, but you don't control airspace and don't build SA for your team that way, so whatever tips you read always keep in mind that depending on where you are, they might not be applicable, and often times you need to switch tactics within a single sortie multiple times.

[dooom]

if you can see your bandit, the EO is usually the best route for lock. even in head on aspect without burn. I have never had a problem with it. The obvious benefit being that VSS can get a faster lock and leaves no warning.

 

As an aside - check out the Notch video in my signature... its a solid demonstration on how you can close in on an f15

[holimoli]

Advice on the Flanker for BVR or engagements in general?

 

-come in med/high & fast

-Pincer

-turn in

-FOX1

-crank & dive

-halfway down ->turn in

-FOX1 (+ FOX2)

-crank & dive until u hit the deck ..

depending on the range to the bandit (usually u will beabout 15km away at this time)

-(Fox1 (+ Fox2))

-Pull gs

-8km range

-(Fox1 (+ Fox2))

-notch

-idle

-flare flare

-turn in

-FOX 2 , (FOX 2)

-Merge

-reset trim, pull vertical -> (@750 AoA limiter -> @ 600 s-button, depends what the enemy is doing)

-helmet mode -> FOX 2 , FOX 2

if he is not dead by then, make a new thread and complain about missiles ;)

Edited September 9, 2016 by holimoli

[DarkFire]

This is true, but like all tips with specifics they are specific to certain situations and do not always apply.

For example: In the dynamic BlueFlag PvP campaign we have human GCI that depends on EWRs and the fighter's radars to get a picture, I have seen a lot of people doing their "flying low, EO only-routine" leaving the controller blind and unable to send them help in time. Similarly in this event you can't afford to have a short time on station (I know you exaggerated a bit with 5min but still)

 

@OP: You need to adapt your style of flying to the task at hand, if you are on the 104th for the airquake and K/D then low+EOS is your best bet probably, but you don't control airspace and don't build SA for your team that way, so whatever tips you read always keep in mind that depending on where you are, they might not be applicable, and often times you need to switch tactics within a single sortie multiple times.

 

Ah my bad, I should have been clearer: the only bit I was referring to as being patently false was the notion that the R-27ER is sluggish. The rest of the guide is actually excellent. I'll edit my original post for better clarity.

[kobeshow]

Well I guess he was talking about their ability to turn, but you are right in regards to acc/speed for the R-27ER (ET?), that can be an advantage in BVR and many people don't know about it.

[Stuge]

Well I guess he was talking about their ability to turn, but you are right in regards to acc/speed for the R-27ER (ET?), that can be an advantage in BVR and many people don't know about it.

 

This speed advantage can be used by near perfect launch timings and snaking + diving maneuvers but it is still a knife edge affair...

Edited September 11, 2016 by Stuge

[WildBillKelsoe]

from my limited experience, bvr with su-27 is good against a non retaliatory target (awacs). its terrible against radar fighters unless theyre older and weaker.

 

 

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[JazonXD]

from my limited experience, bvr with su-27 is good against a non retaliatory target (awacs). its terrible against radar fighters unless theyre older and weaker.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Lol, essentially, but aren't just about every other fighters though? :p

[WildBillKelsoe]

Lol, essentially, but aren't just about every other fighters though? :p

Its true

[FLANKERATOR]

I'd say BVR in DCS's Flanker is not meant to be 1 on 1 especially against the Eagle. You could pull it off though and I've seen it countless times but generally speaking, you'd need a sneakier approach as far as BVR goes...that IRST is the perfect tool for that. Don't try a straight 1on1 BVR fight against an Eagle unless you have no other option.

[MaxDamage]

Im new to the game and im interested in a general 'metagame' question.

 

1)Which in game factors pivot the BVR balance in favor of F15C?

 

I would like to omit the obvious AIM120 advantage. What are other advantages?

 

2)Also, if we exclude aim120 and r27ER/ET which plane has better BVR?

 

3) how do mirage 2000, f15c and su27 relate in bvr?

[Frostie]

Im new to the game and im interested in a general 'metagame' question.

 

1)Which in game factors pivot the BVR balance in favor of F15C?

 

I would like to omit the obvious AIM120 advantage. What are other advantages?

 

2)Also, if we exclude aim120 and r27ER/ET which plane has better BVR?

 

3) how do mirage 2000, f15c and su27 relate in bvr?

 

1)

The AIM-120 factor is helped greatly by TrackWhileScan.

TEWS gives better situational awareness with regards to bandits, friends and SAMS.

Climb rate and speed is far superior to the direct foe, Su27.

 

2)

AIM-7 outranges R-27R, maybe under 10km R-27 is faster but only launched off the wings not the belly.

Mirages Super 530D outranges both, accelerates quicker and sustains speed much better.

 

3)

Mirage uses RAZBAMs version of missiles while Su27 and F15 get EDs missiles that don't match up like they should. This is part of the problem of having 3rd parties creating their own missiles.

With no 120 and ER Mirage has the advantage, with ER and 120, the F15 with TWS has the advantage while the Flanker should be slightly ahead of the Mirage, but the 530D is not far behind both ER and 120 on energy.

[Ironhand]

Im new to the game and im interested in a general 'metagame' question.

 

1)Which in game factors pivot the BVR balance in favor of F15C?

 

I would like to omit the obvious AIM120 advantage. What are other advantages?

 

2)Also, if we exclude aim120 and r27ER/ET which plane has better BVR?

 

3) how do mirage 2000, f15c and su27 relate in bvr?

What you will always have in the F-15, regardless of weapons employed, is better situational awareness because of the western implementation of TWS. Don't own the Mirage, so I can't comment there. But having a better picture of the battle scene always gives you an advantage...even if it's only to know when to run.

[ShuRugal]

Best advice is "Don't". With the current states of missiles in DCS, an F-15 can kill a flanker from safety in BVR 100% of the time if the Eagle driver knows what he is doing.

 

Best tactic is to leverage your potentially superior SA and sneak in close. Failing this, you could try what Holimoli laid out and see if you can keep enough missiles in the air to keep him busy long enough for you to merge. However, a competent Eagle driver who keeps his cool can defeat every ER and ET fired at him without ever taking a defensive posture, while knowing that you will have to work harder to avoid his 120.

 

IMHO, the best way to survive BVR in a Flanker is to deny that fight to the Eagle. Until the R-27 family remembers how to track targets, and until the missile drag problem is solved, the Flanker has no weapons which pose a significant BVR threat to an Eagle.