[CLOSED] K-4 module completely stops rolling at high speeds

[Krupi]

You have posted Spitfire and 109 elevator forces.

 

Topic is 109 aileron forces.

 

Stick to it, if you'd please.

 

See thread title, this is about rolling and the document I have linked says so.

 

Next time read the article I have posted.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Krupi

[Kurfürst]

Sticks force per g... for ailerons.

 

Right.

[Krupi]

Here is the missing first paragraph...

[Kurfürst]

Krupi, the table you posted compares the elevator forces of the Spit and 109. Not the ailerons.

 

You don't 'pull' 1 g, 2g, 3g with the ailerons either. Neither do ailerons contribute to 'positive dynamic stability'.

 

If you disagree, I'd like to see a video of you pulling those 4 gs with the 109s ailerons. Now that would be a sight to behold.

 

Now, can we please go back to 109. Roll characteristics. And aileron control. In DCS.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Kurfürst

[Krupi]

Okay, fair point.

 

However it is still relevant, the video that David posted touched on elevator forces and this shows that they were high on the 109 as were the aileron controls

 

You can't resist spreading your mantra of lies though can you Kurfürst, always having to ensure that the 109 was the best in every aspect regardless of truth.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Krupi

[Kurfürst]

At last.

 

Yes, the control forces were high. But David's video shows they are pretty absurdly high in DCS. Full stick back only possible at 210 km/h IAS...? Come on.

 

The elevator forces/deflection achieved with may be right though and it may very well be that our virtual pilot is just a virtual clone of Woody Allen and he can't even cope with those forces reasonably occurring, even at low speeds.

 

Ultimately the deflection doesn't matter, since its the effect of the deflection we are after. Since even though you can pull less control surface deflection at high speed, the maneuvering effort for effect (pulling gs) will be roughly similar across the range. Stick force per g. I.e. you achieve less deflection at high speed, but more Gs per deflection angle.

 

And as your table shows, with 65 lbs force, which is far from the impossible for any healthy human being, you ought to pull a 4 g turn in a 109. If you can't do that, something is fishy.

 

As for the Spit. If my hunch is right, and indeed our virtual pilot (who I assume is the same in all cocpit) can only make very low forces, Spit pilots will be in trouble in the roll department (not the elevator department, obviously), because aileron forces on the Spit were huge. We are talking about 24 lbs for 8.5 degrees aileron deflection (i.e. roughly 1/4) at 300 mph IAS, and 71 lbs for 10 degrees aileron deflection at 400 mph IAS. Now everything so far indicates that our virtual pilot cannot use more than about 17 lbs side force for the ailerons.. on any plane. It just doesn't show right now, because the Mustang has very light aileron forces, and so does the 190.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Kurfürst

[MAD-MM]

Bit fishing in the Dark with the Stick Forces, Finnish Reprort on 109 G2 450Km/h 10kg 20 Pounds of Stick Forces with full deflection. Is this more truth or less then British reports?

[Krupi]

The point Kurfürst is that this was all very tiring for the pilot, heavy controls constant pedal input in reality this would impact the pilot over a length of time.

[Krupi]

Bit fishing in the Dark with the Stick Forces, Finnish Reprort on 109 G2 450Km/h 10kg 20 Pounds of Stick Forces with full deflection. Is this more truth or less then British reports?

 

Sounds about right for 280 mph, it is beyond that where the issue occurs.

 

It is roughly the same for the Spitfire

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

Sounds about right for 280 mph, it is beyond that where the issue occurs.

 

It is roughly the same for the Spitfire

 

if that finnish report is even close to reality, where they seem to indeed indicate that the pilots pulled full deflection 1 handed with a force of ~10kg, then we are miles off in game.

or our virtual pilot is miles off passing the selection requirements.

 

EDIT: Krupi, in the article you posted, this somehow surprises me:

 

"but, at slow speed, stick forces would not really be a player, where the 109 really surprised me, and where it was by far the best of the three aircraft, was in its manoeuvrability in slow flight and in its controllability at and close to the stall."

Edited December 13, 2016 by 9./JG27 DavidRed

[Solty]

Bit fishing in the Dark with the Stick Forces, Finnish Reprort on 109 G2 450Km/h 10kg 20 Pounds of Stick Forces with full deflection. Is this more truth or less then British reports?

 

Was it trimmed?

[NineLine]

We all remember that it has been noted that there is an issue with stick forces right now right? Fixed internally but hasn't made its way to release yet.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

...

I would also like to point out that DavidRed is the first man to reject the control stiffness as a whole when it came out.

 

 

this is poor nonsense...back then, when i was opening the thread about stick forces, my intention was to get a clamping behaviour of the stick forces. so that virtual sitck position and stick position at home are identical as long as feasable with the forces...i was strongly against the former behaviour where the virtuals stick would magically move whereas your stick at home would be half delflected and kept in position...i was arguing about this being wrong, as it forced you to make movements with your stick which have nothing to do with what a real pilot would do in an aircraft...

 

now i bet, you can find some quotes, of me where this might not get communicated very well, but if you look for all quotes of me in that thread, you clearly see that this was my intention....and not that the 109 should make thight loops at 800kph.

 

that is why i am now very happy with the behaviour of the stick forces, and that Yo-Yo finally reconsidered them...the 109 now acts like a real aircraft, and i can now finally make inputs which i do also in real life...

 

 

the only thing that remains is, that we can be sure we have correctly implemented forces, and also a virtual pilot that would pass the requirements...right now it feels as he could not even hold a six pack.

 

of course, its hard for you to understand...

but thats the problem of a guy only knowing the 1 side, only the 1 aircraft, posting in a section of a forum about a module he doesnt own and fears so much...

[NineLine]

of course, its hard for you to understand...

but thats the problem of a guy only knowing the 1 side, only the 1 aircraft, posting in a section of a forum about a module he doesnt own and fears so much...

 

 

Dont make it personal please, this goes for everyone. This is my only warning.

[MegOhm_SD]

How about a furball where you guys duke it out in your respective aircrafts in the DCS Virtual skies. I would purchase a ticket to watch that!

[NineLine]

How about a furball where you guys duke it out in your respective aircrafts in the DCS Virtual skies. I would purchase a ticket to watch that!

 

I have asked for this a number of times :)

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

if it would only help.

[DefaultFace]

It's happened many times, but that's a different story, not relevant to the issues here.

 

@sithspawn I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who is not aware of an internal fix/issue of stick forces atm (unless you are refering to your post on page 1 in which case I interpreted that as being only to do with roll rate above 700 km/h, not pitch deflection etc). AFAIK the official position is still that everything is fine.

 

Could you clarify what you mean exactly? Also don't take this the wrong way but if it is fixed internally why hasn't it been released yet? I understand if you don't have the answers to these questions but would appreciate whatever clarification you can offer.

[NineLine]

I really dont have an answer why it hasnt been moved to release yet, but some things get hung up by other things, its not as simple as it sounds, but I have been bugging people about this for sure.

[Krupi]

if that finnish report is even close to reality, where they seem to indeed indicate that the pilots pulled full deflection 1 handed with a force of ~10kg, then we are miles off in game.

or our virtual pilot is miles off passing the selection requirements.

 

EDIT: Krupi, in the article you posted, this somehow surprises me:

 

"but, at slow speed, stick forces would not really be a player, where the 109 really surprised me, and where it was by far the best of the three aircraft, was in its manoeuvrability in slow flight and in its controllability at and close to the stall."

 

I didn't find that surprising, slats are used on most aircraft today for a reason :thumbup: :D

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

mh...yeah sure...not surprised the 109 should handle well at slow speeds, but more about the "by far the best of the three" comment...as i would consider that spit not bad in that regard either, far from it in fact...

[rel4y]

Was it trimmed?

 

You don't perform these kind of tests at trimmed speeds, but instead at known incidence levels eg 0° stab to make it comparable. Trim speed obviously varies from aircraft to aircraft for unlimited amount if reasons and depending on weather as well. But I am sure you knew that.

 

Krupi is that test from flight magazine? Cause that was an E model.

[Solty]

You don't perform these kind of tests at trimmed speeds, but instead at known incidence levels eg 0° stab to make it comparable. Trim speed obviously varies from aircraft to aircraft for unlimited amount if reasons and depending on weather as well. But I am sure you knew that.

 

Krupi is that test from flight magazine? Cause that was an E model.

 

Finns can have differnt standards. It was way before the current standardisation of procedures. But if it was not mentioned then probably trim was set to 0.

[Krupi]

Krupi is that test from flight magazine? Cause that was an E model.

 

Pilot Magazine not long before Black 6 was permanently grounded :(

[rogonaut]

No she wouldn't turn like hell, she would stall. You don't even understand what is being said.

 

I think she would considering you can pull harder on the stick and of course she would stall like every other plane when you are to slow that is. furthermore its hard to say cause we have limitations due the stick forces. from reading the posts in this thread i think you don´t understand either:D

 

ps there are high speed stalls as well...

Edited December 13, 2016 by rogonaut