Spitfire better than P-51D for online matches?

[TripRodriguez]

Hey guys!

 

I'm just about to start trying to fly online against other players (Steel Balls and Burning Skies maybe others) and I was disturbed to read that the P-51D does not do well against the German fighters (or BF-109 specifically anyway) partially due to low altitude dogfighting being the norm.

 

I did read that there is supposed to be a P-51 update in the works to bring her up to 1944 Europe theater specs but in the meantime I fear a frustrating experience.

 

I also read a rumor that the Spitfire took a nerf in the last patch.

 

The question is this: If i want to avoid being at a disadvantage against players in BF-109's should I be flying a Spitfire until the P-51D 1944 update comes?

 

Thanks for any input from you limies!

 

Trip

[Theskyline35]

Yeah Of course the Spitfire in Dogfight at low altitude, however when Normandy will came out, with AI Bomber to escort, flying high, then the P-51 with is much better autonomy will be very interesting to flight.

 

Also the P51 is way better for ground attack !

 

Sadly multiplayer server in DCS are far from reality, with 1 vs 2 planes, sometimes 1 vs 1, low altitude, no target or things to escort, pure deathmatch.

 

In reality, a lot of the battle over the Normandy were taking place with +30 planes, not a poor 1 vs 1, but more like 30 vs 40, and flying way higher, around 10.000ft, and +20.000ft for bomber escort.

 

So the things may change with the Normandy map in few months, especially if servers stop doing these 'stupid' air quakes and go for me realism.

[Krupi]

If flown well and the advantages used the P-51 is still a good aircraft online, as you have already mentioned the current fights take place low and this certainly doesn't help.

 

If you want to mix it up with a 109 in a dogfight the spit is king right now, however the spit is slow and the P-51 can make up for that this will improve with the update.

 

So really online they help each other out :)

[Krupi]

In reality, a lot of the battle over the Normandy were taking place with +30 planes, not a poor 1 vs 1, but more like 30 vs 40, and flying way higher, around 10.000ft, and +20.000ft for bomber escort.

 

So the things may change with the Normandy map in few months, especially if servers stop doing these 'stupid' air quakes and go for me realism.

 

I am sure they will, with P-51s flying top cover Spits flying low to medium :D

[Bullitthead]

Yup, the Spitfire is much better vs. the 109 in the current online environment than the p51 is. About the only thing the Spitfire can't do vs. the 109 is catch it when it decides to run. I'm not sure about the Spitfire being changed in a previous patch. Haven't been online in a few days but hadn't noticed any changes prior to that.

[saburo_cz]

Hey guys! The question is this: If i want to avoid being at a disadvantage against players in BF-109's should I be flying a Spitfire until the P-51D 1944 update comes?

Trip

 

Do not try to fight against Bfs at low altitude at low speed especially with full tanks.

If you met ONE Bf and you will stay fast, you will have chance to win, if they are two cooperating (unfortunately very often) your chance to win will be minimal even you will fly with Spitfire or "P-51D 1944" whatever it will be...

 

do not forget that on-line playing has nothing to common with real WWII air battles

[TripRodriguez]

Thanks for the informative replies guys.

[Zimmerdylan]

Yeah Of course the Spitfire in Dogfight at low altitude, however when Normandy will came out, with AI Bomber to escort, flying high, then the P-51 with is much better autonomy will be very interesting to flight.

 

Also the P51 is way better for ground attack !

 

Sadly multiplayer server in DCS are far from reality, with 1 vs 2 planes, sometimes 1 vs 1, low altitude, no target or things to escort, pure deathmatch.

 

In reality, a lot of the battle over the Normandy were taking place with +30 planes, not a poor 1 vs 1, but more like 30 vs 40, and flying way higher, around 10.000ft, and +20.000ft for bomber escort.

 

So the things may change with the Normandy map in few months, especially if servers stop doing these 'stupid' air quakes and go for me realism.

 

I would have to disagree with you on this. The P51 is substandard at any altitude in DCS. I can tear up the p51 at 20,000 as easily as 3000 with the 109. It's terribly underpowered (comparatively speaking) and not nearly as maneuverable as the other planes. Plus, as soon as the 109's attack, they're going to drop down to low altitude like they originally did in the war. The difference will be that the DCS pilots all are adept with the 109 and are pretty much able to take down p51s like flies. I'd be willing to bet that if they don't modify the P51, there will be major complaints about the whole deal.

Unless ED changes the flight model and effectiveness of the weaponry, it will be the same old same old. Just go on any server. You don't see any P51's in the air to air for a reason. I know only a few people who bother with it any more.

Please understand that I am not complaining about this. It's just the hard truth for some people, the DCS P51 is the least effective fighter (by far) that's available. There has to be a best, and worst in anything. The P51 has unfortunately taken the spot of least effective in DCS. Whether this is true to reality, I do not know. It really doesn't matter. But it is the least versatile in this sim. At any altitude......

Edited January 7, 2017 by Zimmerdylan

[Zimmerdylan]

saburo_cz:

"do not forget that on-line playing has nothing to common with real WWII air battles" <<<<<<<< True story.:megalol:

 

 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Zimmerdylan

[shaunwallis21]

the mustang can just keep the 109 chasing in with teamwork tactics and then kill it when it retreats for fuel top speed and combat range is the definitive winning factor if used correctly in teamwork. the sabre is a good example of a superior tactical advantage plane. no mig can shoot my sabre down ever i will just keep them far away from me with superior speed till they havto return for fuel . Dont play fair play to your advantage. and people that disagree can go back to their air quakes im all about realism.

 

and people that think it is not the superior teamwork fighter in dcs need to understand the fw190 has the same tactical advantage as the p51 it just lacks the range to exploit this.

Edited January 7, 2017 by shaunwallis21

[mjmorrow]

The Spitfire LF IXc isn't in the same league as the Axis rides. As long as they stay fast, they are going to be virtually untouchable. The alleged advantage of the Spitfire is as a dogfighter, but given that there is a substantially high likelihood of a blackout, wings ripping off, and/ or engine seizure, while using the Spitfire in a dogfight, the Spitfire isn't that great of a dogifighter, either. I don't know if the blackout, wings ripping, and rapid engine seizure are features or not, but all of that in addition to the substantial relative deficiency in speed, the Spitfire is an overall inferior ride when compared to the P51D and certainly when compared to her rivals, the K4 or D9. :thumbup: MJ

Edited January 7, 2017 by mjmorrow

[Zimmerdylan]

The Spitfire LF IXc isn't in the same league as the Axis rides. As long as they stay fast, they are going to be virtually untouchable. Using the Spitfire, there is a high likelihood of a blackout, wings ripping off, and/ or engine seizure. I don't know if those are features or not, but in addition to the substantial relative deficiency in speed, the Spitfire is an overall inferior ride when compared to the P51D and certainly when compared to her rivals, the K4 or D9. :thumbup: MJ

 

You may be on to something with this statement. When you are going up against the AI 109 in the spitfire, you pretty much bring the fight into the Spitfire's element as the 109 will relentlessly hound the Spitfire in closed combat. In the servers, it may be easier for the 109 to take the advantage because of the slowness of the Spitfire. And yes, you pass out pretty easily in the Spitfire, and overheating is certainly a problem for many fliers too. So you may be on to something. But the P51 isn't going to do any better. I may just stick with the 109 for all of this. I know it's not going to fail me.

[firmek]

I would have to disagree with you on this. The P51 is substandard at any altitude in DCS. I can tear up the p51 at 20,000 as easily as 3000 with the 109. It's terribly underpowered (comparatively speaking) and not nearly as maneuverable as the other planes. Plus, as soon as the 109's attack, they're going to drop down to low altitude like they originally did in the war. The difference will be that the DCS pilots all are adept with the 109 and are pretty much able to take down p51s like flies. I'd be willing to bet that if they don't modify the P51, there will be major complaints about the whole deal.

Unless ED changes the flight model and effectiveness of the weaponry, it will be the same old same old. Just go on any server. You don't see any P51's in the air to air for a reason. I know only a few people who bother with it any more.

Please understand that I am not complaining about this. It's just the hard truth for some people, the DCS P51 is the least effective fighter (by far) that's available. There has to be a best, and worst in anything. The P51 has unfortunately taken the spot of least effective in DCS. Whether this is true to reality, I do not know. It really doesn't matter. But it is the least versatile in this sim. At any altitude......

I guess you’re both correct.

1. DCS multiplier can be fun but is not the best place to be if looking for realistic WW2 scenarios

2. Hopefully we'll see a change with Normandy and introduction of bombers. This will depend however on how well the missions will be designed and how much players will follow the objectives. The role of the escort is to protect the bombers, not to chaise the enemy fighters.

Let’s see how the situation will develop in future. With Normandy for sure there will be a change how the scenarios are being setup and play out. I’m a bit skeptical as for the bomber escort as the map is not so hedge.

3. P-51 seems to be substantially the weakest from all warbirds. In one-to-one dog fight scenario, at the moment it’s hard to indicate even a single specific advantage of this aircraft. Are the real performance values correctly modeled? No clue.

4. In more of a gaming environment on the todays MP sever it is perfectly reasonable to go for the ground targets with P-51. Obviously, with HVARS and bombs P-51 is much more capable ground striker than Spit.

The reality (which is rather unfortunate) is that even if the ground targets are the mission goals most of the time dog-fighters will be going happily about their own business, chasing each other far away from the targets.

 

 

The Spitfire LF IXc isn't in the same league as the Axis rides. As long as they stay fast, they are going to be virtually untouchable. The alleged advantage of the Spitfire is as a dogfighter, but given that there is a substantially high likelihood of a blackout, wings ripping off, and/ or engine seizure, while using the Spitfire in a dogfight, the Spitfire isn't that great of a dogifighter, either. I don't know if the blackout, wings ripping, and rapid engine seizure are features or not, but all of that in addition to the substantial relative deficiency in speed, the Spitfire is an overall inferior ride when compared to the P51D and certainly when compared to her rivals, the K4 or D9. :thumbup: MJ

I could not disagree more with this statement. There was already a "great" thread going on about how the 109 and 190 will still rule the air even after introduction of Spit. Well, nothing of this had happened. Spit is a great dog-fighter. I'm a really medioker dog fighting pilot but with Spit I don't have any bigger issue to shake off a 109 or 190 from my six and even to get into tail of one of them. Yes, they can try to run out but the speed difference is not like between Cesna and MiG-21. It takes a good pilot to be able to get into a good position that allows the 109 pilot to run out.

 

My summary would be - just fly the plane that you like. Personally, I fly those that I kind of fill attracted to from historical perspective, even it this means that it's going to get my !@# kicked on MP servers. Call me crazy but I still believe DCS is about SIM experience, not about gaming and K/D ratio. If you're flying a plane just because it'll get you a good scores - IMO you're doing it totally wrong. I'll fly Spitfire since for me it's the most iconic plane, historically connected with my country and even a milion posts of how bad it is and how the axis planes are great will not change it.

[Tomsk]

I fly both axis and allied, and I have definitely found that flying axis is a lot easier. One reason is the axis planes are better. The P-51s biggest strength would normally be speed, but the 109 is faster at most altitudes and the 190 is faster down low. The poor hitting power of the 50 cals also makes BnZ tough (normally the best way to fly the 51) as you're unlikely to get one pass one kill, as you often can in the 190. You can make kills, and I do, but it's harder. The Spitfire is good in the dogfight, but a smart 109 or 190 pilot will refuse to do that and just out run you if in a poor position. The 190 is especially tough for the Spit as if it has altitude it can spiral dive for the deck and run at any time. The Spit just can't follow without breaking wings. Done that to so many spits when flying the 190.

 

The other big issue is that axis players climb and allied ones generally don't. This means your choice is generally go low and get BnZed forever, or go high and face 3-vs-1 odds or worse. IMO this is probably a bigger problem than the performance differences. I don't know why it should be like this but whenever I fly axis there are lots of friendly planes up high with me. When I fly allied I'm often the only one up high. The allies could probably make up for their performance disadvantages by climbing high and working as a team .. but it doesn't seem to happen much.

[TripRodriguez]

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

 

I'm able to take out AI 190's with no trouble even just being a beginner in the P-51 so I assume that the AI is just weak and that's all.

There I take out the AI 190 five times in a row while flying like the amateur I am.

 

I'm in it for the immersion not a k/d ratio or score, but though I want a challenge it will be frustrating if I lose against inferior pilots (assuming I learn more and become better) all the time because of the aircraft advantage.

 

Maybe I'll wind up looking to fly against AI?

 

I want to get in my plane and pre-flight, radio the tower and request engine start, and take it from there through a flight (preferably flying a plan and/or escorting bombers), and assuming I survive make it to my mission landing base and play it through all the way to parking and executing a proper shutdown.

 

Some really good WWII campaigns are what I really want, and I hope they will come with or after Normandy.

 

I'm brand new to DCS, so I don't know how to best get this kind of experience. Maybe I can create my own missions or maybe others have already done so. I'll install whatever mods are available to get more of a WWII experience.

 

In the meantime I intend to learn (I just finished the manual and will research WWII dogfight techniques) and take my P-51 to the online WWII servers until I get frustrated.

 

I guess I should go find out more about the High Stakes campaign, it didn't catch my interest because it's not a WWII campaign but now I figure it's better than no campaign maybe. Anyone want to tell me about it?

[dburne]

Some really good WWII campaigns are what I really want, and I hope they will come with or after Normandy.

 

A big +1 to that , really looking forward to Normandy.

[firmek]

...The Spitfire is good in the dogfight, but a smart 109 or 190 pilot will refuse to do that and just out run you if in a poor position. The 190 is especially tough for the Spit as if it has altitude it can spiral dive for the deck and run at any time. The Spit just can't follow without breaking wings. Done that to so many spits when flying the 190.

+1. On the flip side, there are a lot of 109 pilots that take for granted that they are flying a plane with speed advantage which will save them no-mater what kind of silly maneuver the do. Too many times I've seen 109 that after initial zoom-in go into hard turn horizontally while the Spit goes high yoyo and easily gets on 109 tail. Bottom line, a lot depends on the pilot and using planes strengths is something that requires understanding and practicing. Pure numbers on the charts will not win the engagement.

 

The other big issue is that axis players climb and allied ones generally don't. This means your choice is generally go low and get BnZed forever, or go high and face 3-vs-1 odds or worse. IMO this is probably a bigger problem than the performance differences. I don't know why it should be like this but whenever I fly axis there are lots of friendly planes up high with me. When I fly allied I'm often the only one up high. The allies could probably make up for their performance disadvantages by climbing high and working as a team .. but it doesn't seem to happen much.

Couldn't agree more. Something that was always kind hard to understand is seeing blue flying straight from TO on low altitude, without any climb into engagement zone. Maybe it's due to the DCS graphics engine and the fact that is usually easier to spot targets on the sky than those blending with the ground.

I've tried to circle around the AP after take off with nav lights on, gaining some height and waiting if others would like to group up before going into engagement zone. I guess if you're not flying with a friend there are poor chances that this would happen.

Edited January 7, 2017 by firmek

[mjmorrow]

You may be on to something with this statement. When you are going up against the AI 109 in the spitfire, you pretty much bring the fight into the Spitfire's element as the 109 will relentlessly hound the Spitfire in closed combat. In the servers, it may be easier for the 109 to take the advantage because of the slowness of the Spitfire. And yes, you pass out pretty easily in the Spitfire, and overheating is certainly a problem for many fliers too. So you may be on to something. But the P51 isn't going to do any better. I may just stick with the 109 for all of this. I know it's not going to fail me.

 

A practical decision. Picking the Spitfire, you are just handing the Axis side all the advantages, giving them the luxury of determining when and if the fight starts, how long it goes on for, when it ends. At the end of the day, the P-51 or either of the Axis rides make for much better choices for a competitive multiplayer server. The Spitfire IXc is just outclassed. :thumbup: MJ

[DieHard]

Depends on the pilot and depends on the computer setup in PC-land and on-line how you are connected and with whom.

 

Spitfire is still in development and will be for awhile.

Edited January 7, 2017 by DieHard

[Zimmerdylan]

Depends on the pilot and depends on the computer setup in PC-land and on-line how you are connected and with whom.

 

Spitfire is still in development and will be for awhile.

 

Yeah....I've taken this into consideration. I'm wondering what the future will bring for the Spitfire. As it stands, I don't really fight in it. I find it has a lot of issues that I personally (mind you, this says me personally, not the whole ED community)do not want to deal with in air to air. But all of that may change in the end. I don't mind that it's slower than the Axis planes because it still flies circles around the Mustang and can out turn the 109. But none of us know what the final release will look like.

From what I understand, we don't really know what the P51 will look like when the Normandy map is released. It seems that there are many changes in store.

But I have to say that the 109 is clearly the king of the DCS skies at this point.

[Tomsk]

+1. On the flip side, there are a lot of 109 pilots that take for granted that they are flying a plane with speed advantage which will save them no-mater what kind of silly maneuver the do. Too many times I've seen 109 that after initial zoom-in go into hard turn horizontally while the Spit goes high yoyo and easily gets on 109 tail. Bottom line, a lot depends on the pilot and using planes strengths is something that requires understanding and practicing. Pure numbers on the charts will not win the engagement.

 

Absolutely agree, a better top speed on paper is a long way from a magic win button. That's what makes air combat interesting for me, it's not just about stats, it's about how you use what you've got :)

 

But at the moment it's noticeably harder for allies. Personally I'd love to see more balance there, whether I'm flying as allies or axis.

 

But I have to say that the 109 is clearly the king of the DCS skies at this point.

 

Interestingly I think the 109 is the tougher match up for the P-51, but the 190 is the real pain for the Spitfire. If the 190 knows what he's doing, and spots you coming, you more or less will never get a good opportunity to kill him in a Spit. The P-51 can follow a 190's dive, but if a 190 really decides to dive and run the Spitfire more or less has to let him go.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Tomsk

[Krupi]

Interestingly I think the 109 is the tougher match up for the P-51, but the 190 is the real pain for the Spitfire. If the 190 knows what he's doing, and spots you coming, you more or less will never get a good opportunity to kill him in a Spit. The P-51 can follow a 190's dive, but if a 190 really decides to dive and run the Spitfire more or less has to let him go.

 

Yes that is my experience 109 I can take on no problem if they try to turn with me. If they run I can follow them until they make a mistake and then I a have them, I was jumped by three 109's got two of them that attempt to dogfight me and then ran for home when my ammo ran dry :D

 

190 if it has a speed advantage is a forced to be reckoned with!

 

A practical decision. Picking the Spitfire, you are just handing the Axis side all the advantages, giving them the luxury of determining when and if the fight starts, how long it goes on for, when it ends. At the end of the day, the P-51 or either of the Axis rides make for much better choices for a competitive multiplayer server. The Spitfire IXc is just outclassed. :thumbup: MJ

 

Sorry but that is just so completely incorrect, it is almost laughable!

 

Before the Spitfire the P-51 had a hard time, it couldn't keep up it couldn't turn it was like shooting fish in a barrel unless you came across a good pilot. Now the Spitfire has arrived it is a lot safer for an allied pilot, the P-51 and Spitfire have to work together.

 

When Burning Skies compare the stats from last year to this year you will see the impact the addition of the Spitfire has had and it won't surprise me to see the P-51 stats starting to climb back up things are not so easy for the axis side anymore.

 

With the addition of the Spitfire XIV (hopefully this year, pretty please VEAO) and bombers that is when we will see things start to really turn around.

 

DOWN WITH QUAKE WAR UP WITH TACTICS!!! :pilotfly:

Edited January 7, 2017 by Krupi

[Tomsk]

Now the Spitfire has it is a lot safer for an allied pilot, the P-51 and Spitfire have to work together.

 

Absolutely, in my opinion teamwork (and energy) is the ultimate advantage. If you fly as a coordinated team, and secure an energy advantage then you can easily beat a disorganised group of pilots who fly with poor tactics. This is true even if the enemy are flying substantially better planes.

 

DOWN WITH QUAKE WAR UP WITH TACTICS!!! :pilotfly:

 

Now I would love to see that!

Edited January 7, 2017 by Tomsk

[mjmorrow]

Yes that is my experience 109 I can take on no problem if they try to turn with me. If they run I can follow them until they make a mistake and then I a have them, I was jumped by three 109's got two of them that attempt to dogfight me and then ran for home when my ammo ran dry :D

 

190 if it has a speed advantage is a forced to be reckoned with!

 

 

 

Sorry but that is just so completely incorrect, it is almost laughable!

 

Before the Spitfire the P-51 had a hard time, it couldn't keep up it couldn't turn it was like shooting fish in a barrel unless you came across a good pilot. Now the Spitfire has it is a lot safer for an allied pilot, the P-51 and Spitfire have to work together.

 

When Burning Skies compare the stats from last year to this year you will see the impact the addition of the Spitfire has had and it won't surprise me to see the P-51 stats starting to climb back up things are not so easy for the axis side anymore.

 

With the addition of the Spitfire XIV (hopefully this year, pretty please VEAO) and bombers that is when we will see things start to really turn around.

 

DOWN WITH QUAKE WAR UP WITH TACTICS!!! :pilotfly:

 

What you wrote doesn't contradict anything I pointed out, not one bit. The Spitfire is a sitting duck, the proverbial Sopwith Camel from VM. Yeates book, "Winged Victory." That you can use it for bait so your P-51D can get a clean shot off of a distracted Axis sim pilot doesn't change the validity of what I wrote. The Axis rides can determine the terms of the fight against the Spitfire, period. The Spitfire is outclassed. Going on and on about Effective Team Building changes nothing.

Edited January 7, 2017 by mjmorrow

[Bullitthead]

I have to agree with Krupi here. I never really played DCS WWII much before the Spit was released. I flew a few online missions with the P51 and realized that I was outmatched so badly by the Germans that I gave up. Maybe I could have done better with the Mustang had I flown it differently, not sure. When the Spit was released I started playin online with it and I bet my kill death ratio against German planes is around 4:1! And I'm still new to DCS WWII!! Mjmorrow is correct, the German planes can determine the terms of the fight. They can choose when to engage and when to disengage but in my experience this does not determine their ability to kill the Spit, sure they can run but that is not equal to a kill....