Jump to content

Ballooning on takeoff


Damocles
 Share

Recommended Posts

While my takeoff and landings are mostly reasonable, or at least good enough that the aircraft can be reused, I still find that unless I'm careful on takeoff I either end up hopping/bouncing off the runway or at the other extreme ballooning up several hundred feet, usually the later. I find it difficult to find a happy medium or to judge exactly when my wheels have left the ground.

 

I don't feel in positive control of events, sometimes it works perfectly but it just as likely to be a balloon (mostly) or a hop which while it seems to work also just seems not only inelegant but courting disaster.

 

Can anybody offer any advice ?

 

Would a louder wheel trundling over concrete sound help ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Happens even with a couple of notches down.

 

The 109 is much the same ( I haven't really flown the P51 or 190), unless I really shove the nose down the first couple of hundred feet feel more like a "Woh, how the hell did I get here" followed by a desperate shoving the control colum as far forward as possible.

 

Even though I'm trying to get the tail up, for a nice gracefull departure, when I want and on my terms,presumably I just can't accurately judge my angle of attack/attitude on take off.

 

It's nice that the take off run in the Spit is so short, it saves fannying around on the rudder pedals to much (much less chance of things going pear shaped) but occasionally I'm taken by surprise and think "How the f**k did I get up here so blooming quickly?"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Dam,

 

The only way I've consistently avoided the leap into the air and then the alarming uncommanded pitch up and accompanying wing drop is not to let her fly off herself from the 3-point attitude but pick the tail-up during the ground run and keep her planted on her mains till I'm sure she has enough speed and only takes off when I tell her to; I lift the tail myself early - watch out the attendant swing left! - and when I have 90+ mph the merest breath of aft stick to pick the mains off the floor.

 

It's an odd behaviour and I'm trying to work out what causes it. Seems to happen about the time the wing comes out of ground effect but unsure as to the root of the imbalance of forces that results in this behaviour.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^ What he said.

 

In my personal experience the best way to avoid this is to put the aircraft up on just the mains as soon as you can. This is difficult because it makes staying straight with your feet very dicey for a simulator pilot because you don't have any ass in seat feedback. I was taught by my Cub CFI to immediately go up on my mains and give it full beans to achieve max speed ASAP.

 

At this point when you are on your mains during takeoff, you now have full authority on WHEN you want to takeoff, whereas a stick neutral takeoff in which the acft takes off when its good and ready, and then you gotta reactively push the nose down to avoid ballooning/stalling etc.

 

Some aircraft in DCS are just flat out holy hell challenging to do this with RE: taildraggers - putting a 109 up on its mains on takeoff once you've achieved rudder authority airspeed is dicey as hell simply because of how narrow the mains are, so I personally avoid this technique with the 109.

 

The 51 and the 190 have a very wide track main gear set, so getting up on the mains once you achieve rudder authority is easiER, but still not easy to do because again no ass in seat feedback in the sim.

 

The Spit adds a whole new layer of complexity to this method because of its stupid shopping cart tailwheel, but on the other hand, if you can manage the spits tailwheel in a stick neutral takeoff, chances are you can master an up-on-the-mains takeoff because the spit (at least the DCS simulation) achieves rudder authority in a stiff breeze, like... right away.

 

So my advice to you with the spit in DCS is to treat it like you were flying a Piper Cub or something equally small and kite-like - get it rolling straight and get it up on the mains as soon as you can, keep it straight with your feet (this is HARD because of that pneumatic braking system, you'll need to assign that to an axis controller of some kind, I use my X56 thumb stick for it) and then as you gain full rudder authority you use just your feet. You'll get airspeed up much quicker taking off on just your mains once you get your tail up, which you can do almost immediately in the Cub, and very quickly in the DCS Spit.

 

Now that you're up on your mains you can accelerate much more quickly and YOU can tell the plane when its time to take off, and have a much better handle on ballooning and preventing a stall over the runway.

 

After all, practicing stalls over the runway at 100 ft is pretty much just the worst place to do such a thing :)

 

Its also worth noting that you gotta treat the joystick (as one pilot told me at GLS, "program the stick, don't move it") like a very delicate lady, and maintain relaxed, gentle movements, even if they need to be large movements, in ground effect and on take off when all kinds of dynamic forces are rapidly changing with that big V12 up there revving up, the tendency for almost all of us to get nervous, tighten up and start making sharp inputs to correct, because we're getting genuinely frightened about screwing up the takeoff.


Edited by Schwarzfeld
Link to comment
Share on other sites

^ What he said.

 

In my personal experience the best way to avoid this is to put the aircraft up on just the mains as soon as you can. )

 

This.

I have gotten pretty decent at takeoffs, I always get it on the mains as I build up speed.

Now if I could just get my landings down as good I will have it made lol.

Don B

My VKB Gunfighter MK III Pro L Review

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | EVGA RTX 3090 FTW3 Ultra | 32 GB G Skill Trident Z 3200 MHz CL14 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |VKB GF MK III Pro L Ultimate Grip| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The trick on landings, as with any tailwheel, but MOST especially with the DCS Spit, is this mantra, just repeat it over and over on your descent:

 

The straighter you keep the plane on final, the easier it will be to keep it straight on touchdown & rollout. Line the nose up with the runway using your feet, place the aircraft on the centerline with aileron, control airspeed with elevator, fix the glideslope with your throttle, and power to the ground.

 

Chant that until you hear it in your sleep.

 

Even in a stupid crosswind where you find yourself cocked at some stupid bank angle and doing a full slip to stay lined up, that basic fundamental will allow you and the aircraft to be re-usable every day of the week.


Edited by Schwarzfeld
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even in a stupid crosswind where you find yourself cocked at some stupid bank angle and doing a full slip to stay lined up, that basic fundamental will allow you and the aircraft to be re-usable every day of the week.

 

:thumbup:

 

Thanks I will be sure and do so the next time going forward.

Don B

My VKB Gunfighter MK III Pro L Review

EVGA Z390 Dark MB | i9 9900k CPU @ 5.1 GHz | EVGA RTX 3090 FTW3 Ultra | 32 GB G Skill Trident Z 3200 MHz CL14 | Corsair H150i Pro Cooler |VKB GF MK III Pro L Ultimate Grip| Virpil CM3 Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Base w/ Alpha-L Grip| Point Control V2|Varjo Aero|

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While my takeoff and landings are mostly reasonable, or at least good enough that the aircraft can be reused, I still find that unless I'm careful on takeoff I either end up hopping/bouncing off the runway or at the other extreme ballooning up several hundred feet, usually the later. I find it difficult to find a happy medium or to judge exactly when my wheels have left the ground.

 

I don't feel in positive control of events, sometimes it works perfectly but it just as likely to be a balloon (mostly) or a hop which while it seems to work also just seems not only inelegant but courting disaster.

 

Can anybody offer any advice ?

 

Would a louder wheel trundling over concrete sound help ?

 

Pitch: fine

Throttle: boost +4

Elevator: trim level

Rudder: trim full right

Aeleron: slight right

 

Make sure tracking straight on runway before braking and getting ready to take off.

 

Increase boost slowly to +4 - the aircraft will track straight and watch for right wing lift - the stick a bit right should take care of this - hold it steady and it will lift off by itself. Very smooth and repeatable.

 

Cheers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why couldn't DCS just allow us to assign the brake lever on the stick to the toe brake on a rudder pedal? I, for one, would have a much better idea as to how much braking I was using.

 

I know it would not be "Historically Accurate", but as long as we are able to assign a button on a HOTAS to some panel switch/button/cover/etc in a WWII airplane, or using a mouse click, neither of which is "HA" either, what's the difference?

TWC_SLAG

 

Win 10 64 bit, 2T Hard Drive, 1T SSD, 500GB SSD, ASUS Prime Z390 MB, Intel i9 9900 Coffee Lake 3.1mhz CPU, ASUS 2070 Super GPU, 32gb DDR4 Ram, Track IR5, 32” Gigabyte curved monitor, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pedals, Voice Attack, hp Reverb G2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why couldn't DCS just allow us to assign the brake lever on the stick to the toe brake on a rudder pedal? I, for one, would have a much better idea as to how much braking I was using.

Just do it. "Axis assign", then you'll find wheel brakes has an axis assignable, assign it to whatever axis you have free on your HOTAS, toa brake if you want, though I'd advise to chose an axis on stick or throttle

Whisper of old OFP & C6 forums, now Kalbuth.

Specs : i7 6700K / MSI 1070 / 32G RAM / SSD / Rift S / Virpil MongooseT50 / Virpil T50 CM2 Throttle / MFG Crosswind.

All but Viggen, Yak52 & F16

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Get yourself an X-56, I use the thumb stick on the joystick as the Spit's brake lever, it works PERFECTLY allowing me to modulate my braking. Honestly dont think I'd be able to fly the Spit well without it.

 

I used to use one toe brake axis for the MiGs and the Spit but after I got the X-56, man I never looked back lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(re: Message #5)

 

Finally got takeoffs consistent using the current Burning Skies server with its stiff crosswind conditions. Of course get shot down a lot, but at least can now get in the air and once in awhile get back to land it.

 

I just sim fly, don't have real life experience.

 

Other 3 WWII birds I finally got how to fly the pattern, touch and goes, flying the pattern, pretty much just trial and error. And finally some combat action.

 

Message #5 's advice : now got the Spit IX down fairly goodly.

 

Thanks

 

(My stuff are CH_Products: Fighterstick, Pro Throttle, Pro Pedals >>> no Dead-Zone and curves at 30. Not using any cheats.)


Edited by DieHard

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just do it. "Axis assign", then you'll find wheel brakes has an axis assignable, assign it to whatever axis you have free on your HOTAS, toa brake if you want, though I'd advise to chose an axis on stick or throttle

 

Well, I assigned the brakes to the toe brake on my left rudder pedal. You can only assign them to "Wheel Brakes Analog". After adjusting the dead zone to 10 and the curve to 40, I find that doesn't do any good. You have three positions for the brakes: off, half, and full.

 

So, you end up with no fine control of the brakes. I think, somehow some way, feedback is required, to let you know how much braking force you have input. All our lives, we have associated braking with feedback from our foot or hand. So, its kind of hard to suddenly start trusting a button.

 

I don't know what the solution is.


Edited by TWC_SLAG

TWC_SLAG

 

Win 10 64 bit, 2T Hard Drive, 1T SSD, 500GB SSD, ASUS Prime Z390 MB, Intel i9 9900 Coffee Lake 3.1mhz CPU, ASUS 2070 Super GPU, 32gb DDR4 Ram, Track IR5, 32” Gigabyte curved monitor, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pedals, Voice Attack, hp Reverb G2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know how you ended up like that, I have access to full range of motion on my brake axis and can precisely control the brake lever.why did you fiddle with dead zone and curve?

Whisper of old OFP & C6 forums, now Kalbuth.

Specs : i7 6700K / MSI 1070 / 32G RAM / SSD / Rift S / Virpil MongooseT50 / Virpil T50 CM2 Throttle / MFG Crosswind.

All but Viggen, Yak52 & F16

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Going back to how you know when your wheels have come off the ground.

 

I wonder if using a "sim seat" solution would help? As you should actually feel the difference from ground rumble to the airborne state and could correct accordingly.

Techlabs Chameleon Watercooled Gaming PC - Intel Core i7 6700K @ 4.7GHz : Samsung 950 Pro 256GB SSD, Samsung 500 gig SSD, Seagate 1TB 7200RPM Drive : MSI GeForce GTX 1080 "Founders Edition" 8192MB : 800W '80 Plus Gold' Modular Power Supply : 32GB (2x16GB) DDR4 PC4-25600C16 3200MHz : Occulus Rift S : TM Warthog : MFG Crosswind V2 : Win 10 64. PointCTRL.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Going back to how you know when your wheels have come off the ground.

 

I wonder if using a "sim seat" solution would help? As you should actually feel the difference from ground rumble to the airborne state and could correct accordingly.

 

 

I have a Gametrix seat, but it doesn't work with the Spitfire, yet.

TWC_SLAG

 

Win 10 64 bit, 2T Hard Drive, 1T SSD, 500GB SSD, ASUS Prime Z390 MB, Intel i9 9900 Coffee Lake 3.1mhz CPU, ASUS 2070 Super GPU, 32gb DDR4 Ram, Track IR5, 32” Gigabyte curved monitor, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pedals, Voice Attack, hp Reverb G2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know how you ended up like that, I have access to full range of motion on my brake axis and can precisely control the brake lever.why did you fiddle with dead zone and curve?

 

I wanted a dead zone so the application of braking would not be instantaneous. Same for the curve. I wanted braking to be gradual.

TWC_SLAG

 

Win 10 64 bit, 2T Hard Drive, 1T SSD, 500GB SSD, ASUS Prime Z390 MB, Intel i9 9900 Coffee Lake 3.1mhz CPU, ASUS 2070 Super GPU, 32gb DDR4 Ram, Track IR5, 32” Gigabyte curved monitor, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pedals, Voice Attack, hp Reverb G2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a Gametrix seat, but it doesn't work with the Spitfire, yet.

 

Ah, sorry, should have seen that in your sig.

 

I wonder if its going to be implemented? I didn't realise it had to have code added to make it work. Is it widely supported in other modules?

Techlabs Chameleon Watercooled Gaming PC - Intel Core i7 6700K @ 4.7GHz : Samsung 950 Pro 256GB SSD, Samsung 500 gig SSD, Seagate 1TB 7200RPM Drive : MSI GeForce GTX 1080 "Founders Edition" 8192MB : 800W '80 Plus Gold' Modular Power Supply : 32GB (2x16GB) DDR4 PC4-25600C16 3200MHz : Occulus Rift S : TM Warthog : MFG Crosswind V2 : Win 10 64. PointCTRL.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wanted a dead zone so the application of braking would not be instantaneous. Same for the curve. I wanted braking to be gradual.

 

???? It's the goal of an axis to be gradual and proportional to the amount of movement applied on the control.

You don't need a dead zone nor a curve, at least for this one, the toe brake is naturally in the zero position, and I really really don't see any use for a curve, let the amount of braking (ie, movement of brake lever) be proportional to the amount of movement of your toe brake.

If you see that your foot is inadvertandly pushing the toe brake in certain unwanting ground situation, maybe a little bit of deadzone could help, though I'd rather position my pedals farther away to avoid this, personally.

But really, I insist :), for curves, there's zero need in the case of the wheel brakes. You don't need THAT little braking input (at the beginning of the curve, you'll push the toe brake fr very little actual brake lever movement), and the end of the curve will make you unable to fine tune your braking during big turns (each little push toward the end of the toe brake axis will push on the lever in a big way). That's probably what makes you feel this "all or nothing" effect, tbh. Keep your brake axis with zero curve.

Whisper of old OFP & C6 forums, now Kalbuth.

Specs : i7 6700K / MSI 1070 / 32G RAM / SSD / Rift S / Virpil MongooseT50 / Virpil T50 CM2 Throttle / MFG Crosswind.

All but Viggen, Yak52 & F16

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...... yes, you do need a dead zone or a curve, if you've ever logged real time in an aircraft, specifically a lightweight taildragger (piper cub as an example) it is IMPERATIVE that braking not be instantaneous.

 

In the cub, you need to be able to rest your heels on the brakes without actually applying any force. Same for toe brakes in a normal acft, you need to be able to have your toes resting on the brakes ready to apply, hence the curve and/or deadzone when set in DCS - if you don't judiciously apply a good curve and deadzone, you end up with useless brakes in DCS that are only really good for killing you and your plane.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ah, sorry, should have seen that in your sig.

 

I wonder if its going to be implemented? I didn't realise it had to have code added to make it work. Is it widely supported in other modules?

 

I think it is being worked on. The developer, Andre, was on vacation until Jan 9th, so he hasn't had much time since then to now.

 

Yes, most of the other modules are supported.

TWC_SLAG

 

Win 10 64 bit, 2T Hard Drive, 1T SSD, 500GB SSD, ASUS Prime Z390 MB, Intel i9 9900 Coffee Lake 3.1mhz CPU, ASUS 2070 Super GPU, 32gb DDR4 Ram, Track IR5, 32” Gigabyte curved monitor, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pedals, Voice Attack, hp Reverb G2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...... yes, you do need a dead zone or a curve, if you've ever logged real time in an aircraft, specifically a lightweight taildragger (piper cub as an example) it is IMPERATIVE that braking not be instantaneous.

 

In the cub, you need to be able to rest your heels on the brakes without actually applying any force. Same for toe brakes in a normal acft, you need to be able to have your toes resting on the brakes ready to apply, hence the curve and/or deadzone when set in DCS - if you don't judiciously apply a good curve and deadzone, you end up with useless brakes in DCS that are only really good for killing you and your plane.

 

A little bit of time in a Cessna 185, a Luscombe, and a Citabria, But it just stands to reason that the brakes should be as you and I described.

TWC_SLAG

 

Win 10 64 bit, 2T Hard Drive, 1T SSD, 500GB SSD, ASUS Prime Z390 MB, Intel i9 9900 Coffee Lake 3.1mhz CPU, ASUS 2070 Super GPU, 32gb DDR4 Ram, Track IR5, 32” Gigabyte curved monitor, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pedals, Voice Attack, hp Reverb G2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just read another thread about the brakes. And, it gave me the idea of assigning them to the Mixture control on my throttle quadrant. I'm not using that control, anyway, and it is right next to the throttle and prop controls.

 

I used a 5 dead zone and a 40 curve. I end up with precise control of the brakes.

 

I haven't tried a take off or landing, yet. But, it's looking good.

 

Now, if they would just fix that slooooow elevator trim control.


Edited by TWC_SLAG

TWC_SLAG

 

Win 10 64 bit, 2T Hard Drive, 1T SSD, 500GB SSD, ASUS Prime Z390 MB, Intel i9 9900 Coffee Lake 3.1mhz CPU, ASUS 2070 Super GPU, 32gb DDR4 Ram, Track IR5, 32” Gigabyte curved monitor, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Pedals, Voice Attack, hp Reverb G2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I don't know for real world but for DCS, I've never used any curve or dead zone in any of the analog braking I use, be it on toe brake axis on suitable aircrafts : FW190 / Bf109 / Mirage 2000C, or on a single throttle axis on single brake lever aircrafts : Mig21, Mig15, L-39, Mi8 and now Spitfire, in neither of these cases have I ever needed to tweak the axis curve of the brake and I'm still having precise control of it.

The curve changes the ratio between what you physically apply and what happens in the sim, so what you physically do is not anymore what is applied to the aircraft, I've a hard time understanding how that make the brakes behave how they do IRL....

I can rest my foot on my pedals in the 109 without applying any force to the wheel brakes in the sim already. No need of curves for that.


Edited by Whisper

Whisper of old OFP & C6 forums, now Kalbuth.

Specs : i7 6700K / MSI 1070 / 32G RAM / SSD / Rift S / Virpil MongooseT50 / Virpil T50 CM2 Throttle / MFG Crosswind.

All but Viggen, Yak52 & F16

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...