Missiles

[1Batz]

Now that r3r's are only viable against ground pounders what does everyone use for f15 killing? Obviously the r60m's work well up close but without r3r's there's almost nothing for medium range.

[Kev2go]

Now that r3r's are only viable against ground pounders what does everyone use for f15 killing? Obviously the r60m's work well up close but without r3r's there's almost nothing for medium range.

 

R3R was never a true medium range missile IRL though. It was really just a convert from R3S seekers to be radar guided hence whye realistically thier range isnt supposed to be good, and isnt really suppsoed to be much better than IR counterpart. ITs not a true medium range missile even when compared to Nam era aim7E sparrow.

[1Batz]

R3R was never a true medium range missile IRL though. It was really just a convert from R3S seekers to be radar guided hence whye realistically thier range isnt supposed to be good, and isnt really suppsoed to be much better than IR counterpart. ITs not a true medium range missile even when compared to Nam era aim7E sparrow.

 

Ah ok this makes sense. However is it still supposed to lose its lock so easily?

[probad]

sidewinder is 5" diameter, you got almost nothing in the way of seeker aperture especially with 50s radar technology. theres a reason the sparrow is 8" diameter.

 

why you would want to play the radar game against aircraft with superior radar and rwr is beyond me.

Edited March 27, 2017 by probad

[Cik]

i never use mig-21 radar missiles, and that is because realistically you will never get in parameters.

 

DCS combat takes place almost exclusively on the deck, where the radar is useless and furthermore your only real chance is a beam/tail on shot from ambush, where the radar is strictly a hindrance anyway.

[The_Tau]

I like R3R as its seem as only reliable missile with head on capability. And it scares the shit out of target making it much harder for them to shoot at you

[gavagai]

why you would want to play the radar game against aircraft with superior radar and rwr is beyond me.

 

F-15 is better at the radar game and the IR game, so you're at a disadvantage either way.;)

 

With the radar and R3R you could engage a target you could not yet see, or which was not bore-sighted.

 

Current R3R is indeed only good against slow, large targets.

[The_Tau]

LoL what, using mig21 against F15? Yeah sure you are at disadvantage. Its whole generation of difference. I was talking about Cold War servers MiG21 vs F5s :P

[Sarraceno]

There's a good reason to use the r3r upont F15 and any other superior generation aircraft in a head on fight, besides what has been told here about thet is the only real all aspect missile... as soon you lock on it, the RWR will beep, to be sustituted for a big ass M upon your number. If the pilot is relatively cautious will maneuver hard to defensive. R3r has enough charge to blow it up, so its a measure of pressure and with a bit of luck the enemy plane will lose track on you.... and you'll be close enough meanwhile to turn on IR, as what really excels the fishbed is speed....

 

However, do not try this, unless you are many more or there's some fulcrums or flankers between them and you :D

[Kev2go]

There's a good reason to use the r3r upont F15 and any other superior generation aircraft in a head on fight, besides what has been told here about thet is the only real all aspect missile... as soon you lock on it, the RWR will beep, to be sustituted for a big ass M upon your number. If the pilot is relatively cautious will maneuver hard to defensive. R3r has enough charge to blow it up, so its a measure of pressure and with a bit of luck the enemy plane will lose track on you.... and you'll be close enough meanwhile to turn on IR, as what really excels the fishbed is speed....

 

However, do not try this, unless you are many more or there's some fulcrums or flankers between them and you :D

 

Fishbed? speed. over the F5 yea perhaps, but F15 and M2000 can still regain speed quicker the MIg21. besides in a frontal engagement r3r's dont work so well agaisnt the F15, by that time already fired a couple of Aim120s before you've fired R3R. and broken off long before r3rs manage to reach near them. which will require Mig21 drivers to break lock themselves. the greater burdern is on the Mig drivers dont have internal ECM jammers ( the external pod doesnt work and only makes the mig more draggy anyhow) and that aim120s are obviosuly far better than r3r's, not to mention the Mig21 radar just short ranged, and not reliable tracking due to significant ground clutter interference up till 2,500 meters. as pointed out by othersTheres no point trying to play the electronic warfare game with newer gen fighters, even if the R3R is the only true Frontal aspect missile.

 

so yea right about the last bit, frontal engagements should be avoided when possible against western 4th gen fighters unless youve got fulcrums or flankers nearby.

 

So at the end of the day if mig pilots want an even handed fight , as always stick to flying in F5E vs Mig21 servers to face against aircraft from the same generation.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Kev2go

[pyromaniac4002]

why you would want to play the radar game against aircraft with superior radar and rwr is beyond me.

 

Plenty of air forces throughout history have done it in real life, why not give it a go if our only consequence of losing in DCS is a death tally on the scoreboard? Granted, it didn't work out well for them either.

[OnlyforDCS]

Ok will hijack this thread a bit for my nefarious purposes :)

 

So, I will be diving into the Mig21 module after a long, long hiatus once the recent beta patch makes it to release.

 

I will be taking it online on the F5 vs Mig21 server. So a few questions regarding missiles and loadout:

 

Obviously I will probably be taking 4x R60Ms as they are the best IR missile that the Mig21 can carry, right? (Are they all aspect, or only rear aspect, for that matter can the Mig21 carry any all aspect IR missiles?)

 

So which 2x Radar missiles should I equip and why? I would like to carry at least two radar missiles, if it is possible to engage targets in BVR. Is it possible to do so? (It used to be somewhat).

 

If none of the radar missiles are currently worth equipping, is there an IR missile you would suggest in addition to the R60M and why?

 

Thanks for the suggestions and help in advance!

[Tarres]

R-60M are "limited all aspect", dogfight missiles. Very short range but very agile. Small warhead.

R-60, rear aspect, dogfight misssile, very short range, very agile, smal warhead.

R-13M1, something like a 9P, rear aspect, bigger warhead, longer range.

R-13M, something like a 9G, rear aspect, same warhead and range as the M1.

R-3S, copy of a 9B

R-3R, SARH version of the 13M, not designed to counter fighters.

 

R-55, old RS-2U with a 9B seeker, for training.

RS-2U, anti-bomber beam riding missile. Not correctly simulated.

 

For a 70-80s historical environment, R-13M and R-60, with the 60M and 13M1 for an early 80s.

[Fri13]

i never use mig-21 radar missiles, and that is because realistically you will never get in parameters.

 

DCS combat takes place almost exclusively on the deck, where the radar is useless and furthermore your only real chance is a beam/tail on shot from ambush, where the radar is strictly a hindrance anyway.

 

And because we don't have realistic clouds and weather that renders IR missiles obsolete and gives you the advantage when using a SARH missiles.

 

And when the Mig-21 was primarily designed against a bombers, you will not lose a lock so easily on a such target that is anyways slow to maneuver. Capability to fire a SARH few kilometers earlier is huge when you don't otherwise see the target or the IR missile seeker doesn't get anything.

 

The air quake is then a totally another topic and there you really want to get to rear hemisphere in the first place, regardless of any target/aircraft.

[QuiGon]

And because we don't have realistic clouds and weather that renders IR missiles obsolete and gives you the advantage when using a SARH missiles.

 

And when the Mig-21 was primarily designed against a bombers, you will not lose a lock so easily on a such target that is anyways slow to maneuver. Capability to fire a SARH few kilometers earlier is huge when you don't otherwise see the target or the IR missile seeker doesn't get anything.

Exactly. I like the R3R to hunt A-10s :)

[OnlyforDCS]

R-60M are "limited all aspect", dogfight missiles. Very short range but very agile. Small warhead.

R-60, rear aspect, dogfight misssile, very short range, very agile, smal warhead.

R-13M1, something like a 9P, rear aspect, bigger warhead, longer range.

R-13M, something like a 9G, rear aspect, same warhead and range as the M1.

R-3S, copy of a 9B

R-3R, SARH version of the 13M, not designed to counter fighters.

 

R-55, old RS-2U with a 9B seeker, for training.

RS-2U, anti-bomber beam riding missile. Not correctly simulated.

 

For a 70-80s historical environment, R-13M and R-60, with the 60M and 13M1 for an early 80s.

 

Thanks Tarres. So I can carry 4xR60Ms (on dual launchers) and 2x R13M1, for a full air to air mission?

 

What is the range like of the R13M1 compared to the R60M? Since it is a rear aspect missile I would hope it would be quite a bit longer right? Can the R13M1 "see" targets any better with its seeker than the R60M from a rear aspect?

[OnlyforDCS]

Exactly. I like the R3R to hunt A-10s :)

 

Thats a pretty good point. I assume they are nearly worthless against the agile F5E and other fighters?

[OnlyforDCS]

And because we don't have realistic clouds and weather that renders IR missiles obsolete and gives you the advantage when using a SARH missiles.

 

 

I would think that clouds and weather would be much more advantageous to IR missile use. After all thick cloud formations can cause clutter on older less sophisticated radars. Also they provide a nice uniform cool background against which the hot jets "light" up on IR seekers.

 

Though I get your point, if you can't see the bandit in the clouds, why would you even target him in the first place :)

[Dehuman]

Thats a pretty good point. I assume they are nearly worthless against the agile F5E and other fighters?

 

Not entirely.

 

In a head on engagement, using fixed beam on the radar you can quickly start emitting, lock, and fire on an F-5 with little warning.

 

This puts them on the defensive and gives you the chance to seal the deal with a couple of R-60's

[OnlyforDCS]

Not entirely.

 

In a head on engagement, using fixed beam on the radar you can quickly start emitting, lock, and fire on an F-5 with little warning.

 

This puts them on the defensive and gives you the chance to seal the deal with a couple of R-60's

 

Interesting. Assuming you know that its an incoming F5E and not a friendly Mig :)

[iLOVEwindmills]

R3R are fairly effective against fighters at 'long' range in headons, they don't turn as well as they used to but they do give you a longer arm than IR. Recommend messing around with them in editor to get a feel for their limits.

 

Also, locking with beam mode gives you something approaching a CQC mode with them.

[Fri13]

I would think that clouds and weather would be much more advantageous to IR missile use. After all thick cloud formations can cause clutter on older less sophisticated radars. Also they provide a nice uniform cool background against which the hot jets "light" up on IR seekers.

 

Though I get your point, if you can't see the bandit in the clouds, why would you even target him in the first place :)

Clouds mist will block the IR radiation. So you can't lock the IR seeker there.

Even the bad radars will get trough the clouds that IR seeker doesn't. Like if old radar see nicely just 2-3km in heavy clouds, IR can be just a couple hundred meters if even that.

 

So flying after a bomber can be difficult to shoot down when IR missiles dont lock and GCI says it is straight ahead 500m.

[QuiGon]

Interesting. Assuming you know that its an incoming F5E and not a friendly Mig :)

 

That's what IFF is for. Something that the F-5 does not have :)

[Dehuman]

That's what IFF is for. Something that the F-5 does not have :)

 

You can't use IFF in fixed beam or after lock, as in the example I gave.

 

Unless you'd scanned the target earlier, you've got to put you trust in AWACS.

[Kev2go]

Exactly. I like the R3R to hunt A-10s :)

 

and yet r3r will just eat chaffs like mad given its a early radar guided missile, and the A10C has pretty modern Countermeasures suite + sensors. alot of Chaffs / flares and an automated dispenser program, external jamming pod(s), plus a MWS even if a pilot were somehow a asleep not noting Radar source or Lock warning from the RWR, automated program will start popping em when you get hard locked . ( unless noob pilot who left it in standby mode), and the jammer makes it harder to lock on and may alter the missile path, and combined wiith evasive manuvers make it a near guarantee to dodge R3R's.

 

itl put a10 in a defense and obviously thier weakness is they cant really fight back given thier slow speeds and lack of energy. but that point your merged and may as well just spam him with R60M's. and or shoot guns during a pass. your better off trying to go for a stealthy radar less approach even against an A10 if you want a 1st pass kill with less fuss.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Kev2go