[RESOLVED]DCS 1.5.7 stutters heavily unit related

[Oscar Juliet]

Through the Inferno operates exclusively on spawned in missions. In both 1.5 and 2.1 they cause lag spikes. I'm glad to see this is an issue being taken seriously. We even had personally reported it at E3.

 

We're also experiencing new lag spikes anytime a play loads into an aircraft on 2.1 only. They render the plane slow as the pilot but everyone feels a huge spike when a slot is taken.

 

Our missions random generate missions that spawn. It doesn't seem to matter how many units are in a group. Small groups or large groups all seem to have the same lag effect. It doesn't matter if its ground without radar units, ground with radar units, air units. It all does it.

 

Fixing this would make online play so much better for our servers.

[Wrecking Crew]

I'll add to this. The recent upgrade has disabled the Erl Sis mission, which we have been playing multiplayer since last Friday. Glad to see there is a focus on a cause. Mission and logs attached - lots of log errors. The server can hardly load it and the clients cannot. In single player there is a stutter every 3-4 seconds.

[Pikey]

That's the same symptom from a different cause. It's been in DCS for years, at least since 1.5 and I think before in 1.2. The simple way to combat it, which all mission designers should do and know about, is to place static versions of every client plane on the map (doesn't matter where). Then you don't get "spawn-lag".

Through the Inferno operates exclusively on spawned in missions. In both 1.5 and 2.1 they cause lag spikes. I'm glad to see this is an issue being taken seriously. We even had personally reported it at E3.

 

We're also experiencing new lag spikes anytime a play loads into an aircraft on 2.1 only. They render the plane slow as the pilot but everyone feels a huge spike when a slot is taken.

 

Our missions random generate missions that spawn. It doesn't seem to matter how many units are in a group. Small groups or large groups all seem to have the same lag effect. It doesn't matter if its ground without radar units, ground with radar units, air units. It all does it.

 

Fixing this would make online play so much better for our servers.

[Johnny_Rico]

That's the same symptom from a different cause. It's been in DCS for years, at least since 1.5 and I think before in 1.2. The simple way to combat it, which all mission designers should do and know about, is to place static versions of every client plane on the map (doesn't matter where). Then you don't get "spawn-lag".

 

Hi quick question, how do exactly do this when making a mission ?

thanks

[Ghostrider142]

That's the same symptom from a different cause. It's been in DCS for years, at least since 1.5 and I think before in 1.2. The simple way to combat it, which all mission designers should do and know about, is to place static versions of every client plane on the map (doesn't matter where). Then you don't get "spawn-lag".

 

Fascinating, I never knew this. So anywhere on the map will work as long as it's the same plane the client will use?

[FlightControl]

the Gori Valley mission has 1300 units on the battle scene, 60 ground units running simulaneously, it runs 8 logical missions using automatic detection and dynamic A2G and A2A tasking and it ran incredibly smooth.

It has several airborne AI units, helicopters, planes and has ongoing A2A battles. As is demonstrated on a couple of videos on DCS version 1.5.6.

 

In DCS version 1.5.7, this mission runs terribly. It was the mission that I used to demonstrate the reported stuttering thread.

 

Now we are a couple of versions and a new beta further and where are the fixes?

 

Then i suggested to do a roll-back to 1.5.6, and run 1.5.7 in BETA till ALL urgent problems are fixed that are reported.

 

But that suggestion got rejected.

 

OKAY. But how long can ED still motivate this going on like this?

When do we get our simulator back?

 

I moved to DCS 2.1 developing a new mission. But helas, unfortunately, the stuttering and performance decrease is also much noticeable now since the last updates on 2.1

 

So my question is... Can we please consider to rollback to 1.5.6, and move 1.5.7 to BETA until this performance problem is fixed?

 

FC

[NineLine]

Have you tried the latest beta version?

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3249899&postcount=57

 

DCS 1.5.7.9891 Update 3

 

Support of Su-33 for DCS World

 

 

 

DCS World

• Ground unit sensors. The search of targets is optimized, will be more FPS friendly.
  

 

A roll back by ED wont happen, the goal is to fix issues currently, not step backwards to older versions that dont support new releases.

Edited September 22, 2017 by NineLine

[FlightControl]

Have you tried the latest beta version?

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3249899&postcount=57

 

Haven't seen this. I will try it!

Thanks for telling Sith!

 

Hopefully this fixes the performance issues.

[Drexx]

This doesn't really work anymore, you now need every plane IN every skin to stop this. This forces the user connecting to the server to take a long time to sync up with this loading, requiring them to load at least 2x it get on to your server (theres a timeout when people load onto a multiplayer server).

 

I took ALL my preloaded elements out on the 1.5.7 patch

 

We figured this out since it was causing massive load (as much as)4 sec of lag when people were just switching through skins on the tarmac

 

Update: thanks sith for the updates, we really appreciate updates from you guys no matter how small (even a little, 'we have a ticket made for it, looking into it' ), I will test the beta tonight and get back to you.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Drexx

[BIGNEWY]

You should see a slight improvement with the new beta patch.

 

however understand currently in 1.5.7 performance will be directly linked to the amount of units you have active and searching for targets.

[FlightControl]

You should see a slight improvement with the new beta patch.

 

however understand currently in 1.5.7 performance will be directly linked to the amount of units you have active and searching for targets.

 

Just done a test on beta 1.5.7.9891.

 

I ran the Gori Valley mission i posted earlier in the thread. Exact same version.

 

There is improvement...

 

But still stutter, but not like it was in the original post in the threat. But still, stutter ... The stuttering increases as units are added, indeed.

 

Watch the video:

 

wi9FqijIW3k

 

I bet that if you run this on a server, (thus clients connecting to it), that you won't see a lot of warping and that it may bring already improvements.

 

Because again, let me repeat, there is a huuuge confusion in this community about server and client. If the server is CPU overloaded, or if there is a block in the mission run on the server for whatever reason, you'll notice warping on the connected clients.

 

How to measure CPU performance of your server: measure the CPU in a CPU monitor, and measure the fps with disabled graphics. When the value becomes below 15 fps, you'll see warping. If it stays above that, it won't likely warp clients.

 

But "warping" can also be due to network connection quality or any other network issue, and therefore "warping" is not a good measurement to understand server performance.

 

FC

Edited September 22, 2017 by FlightControl

[Coug4r]

Just wondering, how many (driving and/or active) ground units do you have in that mission?

[Knock-Knock]

After some initial tests with latest Open Beta, it seems that the search radar part is improved, but the ground unit saturated mission issue, isnt.

 

Search radar part: Have a sandbox air to air mission, that I quickly flew thursday, and I would get 90-60 fps cycle every 2 sec type, with a heavy visual stutter often.

Today with latest OB, this was much improved, with 90-80, and no visual stutter.

 

Ground unit saturated missions that I tried, that work pretty well in 1.56, they still suffer in 1.57 OB. Didnt noticed any improvement there. Same fps and fps hits / cycles.

[FlightControl]

After some initial tests with latest Open Beta, it seems that the search radar part is improved, but the ground unit saturated mission issue, isnt.

 

Search radar part: Have a sandbox air to air mission, that I quickly flew thursday, and I would get 90-60 fps cycle every 2 sec type, with a heavy visual stutter often.

Today with latest OB, this was much improved, with 90-80, and no visual stutter.

 

Ground unit saturated missions that I tried, that work pretty well in 1.56, they still suffer in 1.57 OB. Didnt noticed any improvement there. Same fps and fps hits / cycles.

 

exactly

[FlightControl]

OK guys ...

 

I have been looking into this problem very much, and I can resimulate it on the beta version 1.5.7.9891.

 

And I think now the ROOT CAUSE had been found ... The issue seems to be with Patriot Batteries...

 

See attached the Gori Valley mission, but I've removed ALL scripts!

No Triggers, No Scripts loaded.

All scripting is disabled, there are no triggers running.

The mission is a bit large due to some files in the mission (bitmaps).

 

 

3 missions added

 

No Patriots - No Stutter.miz

No patriot batteries loaded in the mission.

 

Load mission, run it. Select RED KA-50 => Go external view. rotate...

=> NO STUTTER!!!

 

More Patriots - More Stutter.miz

About 10 Patriot batteries added in the mission.

 

Load mission, run it. Select RED KA-50 => Go external view. rotate...

=> STUTTER!!!

 

 

Lots of Patriots - Lots of Stutter.miz

A lot of Patriot batteries added in the mission.

 

Load mission, run it. Select RED KA-50 => Go external view. rotate...

=> UNPLAYABLE

 

This may provide now enough material to convince, let's hope ...

It may provide a big hint where to search for bottlenecks in the processing.

 

Which looks like the issue is with long range SAMs.

Patriots however seems to block a lot the smoothness.

And I guess the SA-10s would have the same stuttering effect.

 

I did a lot of tests with short range SAMs and medium range SAMs, but there i could place

hundreds of SR and MR SAM units, and DCS would work smooth.

 

kind regards,

Sven

Lots of Patriots - Lots of Stutter.miz

More Patriots - More Stutter.miz

No Patriots - No Stutter.miz

Edited September 23, 2017 by FlightControl

[tintifaxl]

Good job! Can't believe ED didn't figure that out themselves. But maybe they did but can't fix it easily.

[BIGNEWY]

Good job! Can't believe ED didn't figure that out themselves. But maybe they did but can't fix it easily.

 

They have, but it is not an easy fix for for 1.5.7.

 

For now reduce the amount of radar units and manage the battlefield size for a better experience.

[Pikey]

I did some work on ths one today. Around 3hours all told. On beta

1.5.7.9891.374

 

 

It wasn't as simple as just radar units or just unit count, the actual stutter came from adding radar units onto the other side, where there was none previously.

 

Also, you have to use the in game FPS counter, Nvidia's smooths it out and lies a bit.

 

Bottom line, you see it more on high unit count and low FPS missions, but the killer is adding the radar untis to the other side and then you get these "pulses", it will drop regularly in little bursts. I coudl recreate on much simpler missions, but it's harder to notice since the base FPS is way higher. So an empty mission on 100FPS and you get the dips in FPS but it's not an issue. High unit count and busy missions with a lower base FPS like in the 50's, and you can see the drops and feel them much better, and see the framecounter sliding down 10 FPS.

 

So TLDR;

If your bases FPS and performance is low, you will see it

if your mission has high unit counts, you will see it

Radars on both sides are needed to better see it, removing one set gives a better experience. I'm not sure I understand this relationship yet.

If the FPS counter dips below a vysnc threshold you will defintiely see it

If you happen to be using external views, you already get a fluctuation when you look around and this will impact it

It's easy to get this problem showing up on top of other performance hits and get confused in the cause. Which makes the forum threads litter with confusing information.

Radars hurt performance. Cannot confirm is it's detection types on other units that can impact but you can have way less radar's than any other unit.

I've got demo missions showing this, if ED go back and they aren't sure, then ask and I'll put it together at it's most basic format, but you still need a decent unit count to reproduce clearly, which is a complex reproduction.

Edited September 23, 2017 by Pikey
added "on beta" for version

[Johnny_Rico]

You should see a slight improvement with the new beta patch.

 

however understand currently in 1.5.7 performance will be directly linked to the amount of units you have active and searching for targets.

 

Hmm tried using the new Beta for hosting a dedicated server ...

sadly the slight improvement is that the server crashes very often

so yes that kinda improves the stuttering .....

[FlightControl]

I am confused.

 

When we have a bug, we are asked to help and show a demo mission.

Well I gave 3 missions documenting the root cause. Was it useful?

 

The missions were viewed one or two times.

Was it my language, the fat or bold? Was it my video on YouTube?

I just get the impression that the message didn't come over....

 

I spent this morning 6 hours trying to find out why the Gori Valley mission still stuttered after the patch. I have run this mission and tried different things, made multiple versions eliminating piece by piece.... Until I found the patriots... The radars are the ones killing it.

 

I have not found the word radar documented as the root cause in the thread.

So I thought sharing this as a help... Now we read that ED knows about it and that it is not an easy fix. Okay.... Is there something else that I can do to waste my time on??? Guys... There is a huge disconnect here. Seriously. Huge.

 

Can you please check the missions and confirm or deny that this is the root cause?

 

 

Thank you,

Sven

[BIGNEWY]

Understand that it is the weekend, so checking it straight away wont help, I will take a look when I have time and I will feed back to my ED contacts on Monday.

 

We do already have missions showing the problems, and they are reported.

 

As mentioned it is not an easy fix. Reducing unit numbers on the battlefield and in turn the amount of active radar using units will help.

 

Radar is part of the problem but not the only one, I am afraid you will just have to be patient.

[FlightControl]

Understand that it is the weekend, so checking it straight away wont help, I will take a look when I have time and I will feed back to my ED contacts on Monday.

 

We do already have missions showing the problems, and they are reported.

 

As mentioned it is not an easy fix. Reducing unit numbers on the battlefield and in turn the amount of active radar using units will help.

 

Radar is part of the problem but not the only one, I am afraid you will just have to be patient.

 

Ok. Thank you!

[BIGNEWY]

Ok. Thank you!

 

No problem.

 

I have spoken to a team member and he has already seen your post and plans to take a closer look on Monday.

[Pikey]

Must spread rep before...

No problem.

 

I have spoken to a team member and he has already seen your post and plans to take a closer look on Monday.

[FlightControl]

thank you

 

First a thank you ED team for the effort to fix the stutters caused by the radars...

 

I don't have time now to test but will do in the weekend!

And will provide feedback...

 

Great stuff!

FC