New MIRAGE 2000 Flight Model

[jojo]

PS for the trim using the Autopilot, do you guys put the AP constantly on and use the AP standby button when you manoevre?

 

Winterz gave you perfect "by the book" answer.

 

I will just add:

landing: 200ft AGL is the latest time to turn it off, but once on AoA = on speed, it's perfectly comfortable to disconnect anf fly the final manually.

 

Once OFF, you can use a HAT to manually trim like any other fighter.

Currently the HAT trim isn't smooth enough IMHO. But it will probably be corrected.

 

Wit the new FM I'm now enjoying air refueling much more than before...and I have never been good at it :joystick: It's fairly easy with this one.

Edited December 22, 2017 by jojo

[Hummingbird]

Trim? Thought the point of the FCS was you didnt need to trim, and I never felt any need to when flying either.

[Knock-Knock]

Im with Hummingbird on this one. Puzzles me this 'have to trim' approach, the logic/concept behind it. Ive yet to feel I had to trim, its always flying straight and level for me (unless uneven load). So what is the idea?

Ive tried AP, and AP standby etc, but it just flies exactly the same to me. Same 'deadzone' in pitch, and still have this very unresponsive pitch down.

[jojo]

Ok guys, you are the experts. You have all figure it out...

[Knock-Knock]

What? It was a legitimate question, a question for help, on what am I or we missing.

Im in no way claiming its wrong or right.

[myHelljumper]

Jojo already explained it multiple times.

 

Trim at slow speed is because the stick controls the AoA that increase as you slow down.

 

The nose down ineffectiveness is because IRL the stick has a very short forward travel.

[Azrayen]

Trim? Thought the point of the FCS was you didnt need to trim

Well, sorry but you were mistaken :)

Each FCS, or rather each FBW system, has its own logic, due to maker's choices.

[mvsgas]

Well, sorry but you were mistaken :)

Each FCS, or rather each FBW system, has its own logic, due to maker's choices.

 

I agree with you. Ever aircraft I worked on with FBW system needed trim (F-16 and F-117) I know because I ask pilots and when I inspected the cockpit, on the trim panel, non where centered, they where always moved one way or the other.

Edited December 23, 2017 by mvsgas

[tflash]

Jojo already explained it multiple times.

 

 

The nose down ineffectiveness is because IRL the stick has a very short forward travel.

 

Yes we come to the paradoxical point where the realistic modelling comes in conflict with the game hardware. As our sticks have the same displacement nose down as nose up, the actual flight experience we now have is completely strange and in a way not "realistic", since we feel an unresponsiveness that is not present for the real pilot. Not sure we can compensate for that by tweeking the curves. Only solution is a real Mirage stick I guess!

[Hummingbird]

Yes we come to the paradoxical point where the realistic modelling comes in conflict with the game hardware. As our sticks have the same displacement nose down as nose up, the actual flight experience we now have is completely strange and in a way not "realistic", since we feel an unresponsiveness that is not present for the real pilot. Not sure we can compensate for that by tweeking the curves. Only solution is a real Mirage stick I guess!

 

That's likely the case IMHO because I doubt the real pilots struggle that hard to point the nose down.

[Hummingbird]

Well, sorry but you were mistaken :)

Each FCS, or rather each FBW system, has its own logic, due to maker's choices.

 

Maybe, who knows :dunno: I haven't flown the real thing so I'm basically clueless on the matter. All I can say is that it feels veeery strange

[Hummingbird]

It looks like you don't like to use trim. Indeed you have to trim Su 27 and M-2000. In the case of the M-2000C you especially need to trim below 300kt.

Above 300kt the plane is trimmed for G (it will try to keep constant G load).

Below 300kt the plane is trimmed for AoA (it will try to keep the same AoA)

 

Why unresponsive ? When does the nose "refuse to drop" ?

 

It's still rolling as fast, still sustaining 9G at low altitude and it goes there fast.

If you had custom axes setting think to reset them.

 

I'm fine with trim, my favorite aircraft all need trim.

 

I don't like the Su-27 and now Mirage for two seperate reasons:

 

The Su27 because of the downright ludicrous amount of pitch up with speed it generates; It legitimately feels like I've jumped into a WW1 biplane with a rocket strapped to its tail, that's how hard the FCS amplifies the pitch up with increases in speed on that bird.

 

The Mirage is an entirely different matter, don't feel the need to trim it at all, however with the new update its become weirdly sluggish in pitch and almost refuses to drop its nose, making it very strange and unsatisfying to fly.

[cthulhu68]

I just did a quick test playing with a setting in Axis Tune and this quickly brings back responsiveness. Tweaking this and maybe adding a curve will help make it feel more like last FM.

 

I just cranked saturation X half way to 50.

 

(M2000 controls/Axis Commands/Pitch Joystk Y/Axis Tune/Saturation X to 50)

Edited December 23, 2017 by cthulhu68

[cthulhu68]

The axis tuning is very powerful, this is what I used to do to emulate the asymmetric stick throw.

 

 

Didn't know you could do this. This is even better. You can tune up/down differently

[Hummingbird]

The axis tuning is very powerful, this is what I used to do to emulate the asymmetric stick throw.

 

 

 

I remember playing around with that at the initial release, however back then I didn't have the issue with the nose not wanting to drop. But I'll give your curves a try and report back.

[Davee]

The axis tuning is very powerful, this is what I used to do to emulate the asymmetric stick throw.

 

 

 

Yes . . . those using the WH Target Script can also do this finitely with all axes control.

[SinusoidDelta]

I apologize if this is been posted before, I just found it last night. It may be a good reference for the flight model performance:

 

[Sarge55]

The axis tuning is very powerful, this is what I used to do to emulate the asymmetric stick throw.

 

 

 

Thanks Vladinsky. So this simulates the shorter fwd pitch throw of the real stick?

 

I'll give it a try when I get home. :thumbup:

[Oubaas]

Put it in manual reversion mode and the computer will stop preventing you from commanding enough negative Gs to make you come back for debrief with raccoon eyes. :D

[SinusoidDelta]

Thanks Vladinsky. So this simulates the shorter fwd pitch throw of the real stick?

 

I'll give it a try when I get home. :thumbup:

 

Yes, the curve pictured would provide maximum input at a lower stick displacement. There would be a large dead area after that. A user curve isn’t really required for that, the X or Y saturation would do the same thing.

 

Edit: Disregard. I was mistaken, correction in this post

Edited December 23, 2017 by SinusoidDelta

[Azrayen]

Bear in mind that "racoons" are not nice.

If your butt was in the A/C, you wouldn't want so much to push the stick ;)

[Sarge55]

Yes, the curve pictured would provide maximum input at a lower stick displacement. There would be a large dead area after that. A user curve isn’t really required for that, the X or Y saturation would do the same thing.

 

But wouldn't that amount of saturation limit my aft range of pitch? Or, make it very abrupt?

 

If I understand correctly the physical forward throw of the stick is just a few inches (3 or 4) but the aft movement is much greater (12-14). So you would want to keep aft along the normal linear path and the fwd much more vertical.

 

Just a layman's perception could be right out of whack... :unsure:

[SinusoidDelta]

Bear in mind that "racoons" are not nice.

 

:huh:

 

Edit: Oh, raccoon eyes from “eyeballs-out” nevagtive G.

Edited December 23, 2017 by SinusoidDelta

[Hummingbird]

I apologize if this is been posted before, I just found it last night. It may be a good reference for the flight model performance:

 

 

He goes from 1 to 7.5 G MUCH faster than possible ingame, confirming that something is indeed wrong with the FM.

 

Ingame the G onset is way too slow, i.e. the FCS slows all pitch inputs to an excessive degree. That much is very clear from watching that video.

[SinusoidDelta]

But wouldn't that amount of saturation limit my aft range of pitch? Or, make it very abrupt?

 

It would but I just realized he has the slider checkbox selected. So forward stick would move the indicator to the left in this case. You have to use slider for this because otherwise the curve is applied symmetric to both forward and aft stick movement.

 

If I understand correctly the physical forward throw of the stick is just a few inches (3 or 4) but the aft movement is much greater (12-14).

 

That's my understanding as well. Not sure of the exact displacement but forward travel is typically much smaller than aft.

Edited December 23, 2017 by SinusoidDelta