VKB/Virpil/Thrustmaster quick comparison

[Gman109]

Did a trial video on the new VKB/Virpil sticks, comparing them to the TM and CH stick/options out there. More of a trial run, I'm going to get some better video, audio, and lighting equipment for recording, and do more thorough evals and breakdowns of all this great new gear us sim pilots are being given the option to buy and use. No edits/fancy lighting/audio, and only low res from my iPad.

 

 

edit - Also, regarding the ability to lock the stick (rotating it from center for user pref/comfort), I realize that the direction that VKB uses for their sticks is more for users putting the stick in the center, as opposed to a right hand side position - users doing that would likely be ok and even prefer the direction that VKB allows you to move their stick (counter clockwise about 15 degrees), when either mounting the VKB stick in the middle of a cockpit, or putting it in the center of the desk.

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHGMo5SntuQ

Edited May 5, 2018 by Gman109

[ricktoberfest]

Did a trial video on the new VKB/Virpil sticks, comparing them to the TM and CH stick/options out there. More of a trial run, I'm going to get some better video, audio, and lighting equipment for recording, and do more thorough evals and breakdowns of all this great new gear us sim pilots are being given the option to buy and use. No edits/fancy lighting/audio, and only low res from my iPad.

 

 

edit - Also, regarding the ability to lock the stick (rotating it from center for user pref/comfort), I realize that the direction that VKB uses for their sticks is more for users putting the stick in the center, as opposed to a right hand side position - users doing that would likely be ok and even prefer the direction that VKB allows you to move their stick (counter clockwise about 15 degrees), when either mounting the VKB stick in the middle of a cockpit, or putting it in the center of the desk.

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHGMo5SntuQ

 

 

 

Any chance you wanna give a tl:dr version for those of us who prefer reading to video? (And May be on cell data)

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gman109]

Sure of course - Tildeer is as follows:

 

 

VKB/Virpil sticks are both fantastic, and if $ is no object absolutely worth moving up to from either CH, TM, or Saitek/etc HOTAS sticks.

 

 

The sticks both have little quirks and differences, but overall are really good, with the base/gimbals being the true story of the show. Vastly improved quality and longevity (to be expected) over the TM Warthog.

 

 

 

VKB Gunfighter with the lightest spring = lighter motion than even the CH products stick, with more precision and accuracy.

 

 

Virpil T50 = the prefect blend of the TM Warthog and CH Fighter/Combatstick type of "feel" and motion. The T50 for now requires either a cockpit to mount it in or the use of the $50USD Virpil desk clamp/mounts, which are a ridiculous value. This of course requires a similar mount for the throttle, and both require one to sit further back from the desk than normal. IMO getting a keyboard tray that clamps to your desk, from which to run your kb/mouse off of while using these mounts, is necessary, unless between your HOTAS/Voice attack/etc you don't need to reach your kb/mouse. You CAN stretch for the kb/mouse on your desk, I just prefer not to.

 

 

I'll rewatch the vid and post a bit more that I blathered on about, but this is the jist of it.

[Seb71]

I like your enthusiasm.

 

The name you were looking for at about 11min:20sec is "analog mini-stick".

[ricktoberfest]

Sure of course - Tildeer is as follows:

 

 

VKB/Virpil sticks are both fantastic, and if $ is no object absolutely worth moving up to from either CH, TM, or Saitek/etc HOTAS sticks.

 

 

The sticks both have little quirks and differences, but overall are really good, with the base/gimbals being the true story of the show. Vastly improved quality and longevity (to be expected) over the TM Warthog.

 

 

 

VKB Gunfighter with the lightest spring = lighter motion than even the CH products stick, with more precision and accuracy.

 

 

Virpil T50 = the prefect blend of the TM Warthog and CH Fighter/Combatstick type of "feel" and motion. The T50 for now requires either a cockpit to mount it in or the use of the $50USD Virpil desk clamp/mounts, which are a ridiculous value. This of course requires a similar mount for the throttle, and both require one to sit further back from the desk than normal. IMO getting a keyboard tray that clamps to your desk, from which to run your kb/mouse off of while using these mounts, is necessary, unless between your HOTAS/Voice attack/etc you don't need to reach your kb/mouse. You CAN stretch for the kb/mouse on your desk, I just prefer not to.

 

 

I'll rewatch the vid and post a bit more that I blathered on about, but this is the jist of it.

 

 

 

Thanks a lot

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Can you give a word on how the dry clutches in the VKB make the feeling different to the T50?

 

I have a T50 and it's a great stick, but I imagine the damping that the dry clutches produce makes the stick feed more like you're moving real cables and pulleys.

[Gman109]

I like your enthusiasm.

 

The name you were looking for at about 11min:20sec is "analog mini-stick".

 

 

Thank you Seb, that really means a lot. I've got a great Sony A7R, Rode audio equipment, and some lighting stuff ordered, and once we're back to our summer home I'll be doing a lot more hardware/sim/hotas videos, properly, on a work bench with proper video/audio/lighting. Once the Virpil WarBrd is out as well as the VKB throttle and Viripl's throttle, I'll do a more in depth review, break down the gimbals, etc. Pedals too, we have most of the custom peds out there, except the Bauer, but I'll see if he'll make me a set despite being very busy with his new gig at Viripl (yay!).

 

 

Thanks for the tip as well, one of those things on the tip of your tongue, analog mini stick, hah. It truly works great with the VKB stick, I hope Virpil in the future will do something similar. Both sticks are fantastic, using them daily is truly a pleasure right now, I've gotten used to the "far from desk" sitting position with the Virpil desk mounts, especially when using VR in DCS, it's a great position for a "realism" feel I've found.

[Sokol1_br]

I don't understand well the point about Gunfighter grip 15º for left... but VKB say that their removable grips alignment ("twist") can be adjusted in 90º range.

[Gman109]

Good to point this out Sokol, this is part of the reason why I want to keep doing these (and improving) videos on all the current hardware.

 

 

One of the issues - which has been being greatly improved as of late - is language/translation issues. That set screw on that page you linked is the correct screw for changing the alignment and position of the stick. It only moves 15 degrees now - you can check with VKB(I will be doing so myself), but IRRC and so far as I can see today, all the docs available for download on their website, show only 15 degrees of change allowable, and only in the counter clockwise position. I've tried the MCG Pro stick I have on both MK2 bases I have, and it's the same deal - only one direction (counter clock) and only 15 degrees.

 

 

I'm going to contact VKB about this, but I'm pretty sure that 15 degrees and only counter clockwise is correct, again, I just tried it on my stick, and that's all it'd move.

 

 

Good catch though, I'll look into it some more like I said, I want to be putting accurate info out there.

[dburne]

Good to point this out Sokol, this is part of the reason why I want to keep doing these (and improving) videos on all the current hardware.

 

 

One of the issues - which has been being greatly improved as of late - is language/translation issues. That set screw on that page you linked is the correct screw for changing the alignment and position of the stick. It only moves 15 degrees now - you can check with VKB(I will be doing so myself), but IRRC and so far as I can see today, all the docs available for download on their website, show only 15 degrees of change allowable, and only in the counter clockwise position. I've tried the MCG Pro stick I have on both MK2 bases I have, and it's the same deal - only one direction (counter clock) and only 15 degrees.

 

 

I'm going to contact VKB about this, but I'm pretty sure that 15 degrees and only counter clockwise is correct, again, I just tried it on my stick, and that's all it'd move.

 

 

Good catch though, I'll look into it some more like I said, I want to be putting accurate info out there.

 

Wow that is strange, seems like it would have been so easy to make it where it could be twisted in any direction, to any angle.

[Mars Exulte]

The locking mechanism is two pieces with a cut out, a screw joining them. You insert into the slot with the cut out toward the stick shaft, adjust the twist as desired, and then tighten it down (hard to see, but presumably it is tightening against the shaft).

 

I can confirm it only turns a few degrees to the left, as I've had a Gladiator Pro w/KG12, and Gunfighter w/MCG and it is the same for both.

[Gman109]

Ok thanks Zhukov, that’s what I thought. It’s really not a major issue, only place it would affect users are those mounting it on a Virpil like desk mount (there are other makers of these type of clamps) and using that as a side stick on their far right. Even then, 12 o’clock would be fine. Gunfighter is a fantastic stick, I wouldn’t have bought 3 and plan on keeping them all otherwise.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Sorry to pester Gman109, but could you comment on the difference in feel from the dry clutches/damping? Thanks.

[ebabil]

is this video 240p?

[USSR_Rik]

Wow that is strange, seems like it would have been so easy to make it where it could be twisted in any direction, to any angle.

There is no necessary to twist right handle stick clockwise. If you use it as a center mount stick, you should rotate it CCW at some angle (15 deg. is fully enough), when you use it as a sidestick - you shouldn't twist it at all.

 

See real photo Su-25 (I took it near Minsk in avia museum) - stick rotated CCW

Edited May 8, 2018 by USSR_Rik

[Gman109]

is this video 240p?

It may be, as I said in the OP and video, it was just a test run, using my iPad to both film and upload, I have a Sony A7R mirrorless, Rode mic/audio, tripods/clamps, and some lighting gear on the way, it all shipped yesterday so I should have it Friday, and I'll be doing more proper videos in the near future on the 30+ pieces of HOTAS/Rudder hardware I have (all the newest pedals/sticks in addition to examples of all the past gear).

 

 

Sorry to pester Gman109, but could you comment on the difference in feel from the dry clutches/damping? Thanks.

Ya, I missed mentioning the clutches and dampening adjustments on both sticks. The tension adjustments on the T50 can be made from the top of the stick with a long flat screwdriver, really simple to do. The adjustments give some fine tuning capability in between the various springs you can swap out, best way I can describe it. There are holes in the top plate of the T50 unit so you don't have to peel the unit apart in order to make these adjustments, that's a bonus compared to the VKB stick. That said -

 

 

The VKB Gunfighter's clutches allow finer adjustment in felt tension on the stick itself as well, however they have more capability built in, as for example for say helo sim pilots, you can adjust the clutch for the forward/back cyclic motion to "lock" the stick in place and have it stay in place from wherever you've moved it. IE if you push ahead a certain amount of forward cyclic/front stick in a helo sim, you can let go of the stick and it'll stay there, IF you adjust the dry clutch to have the correct amount of adjustment to do so. The only downside is you have to partially disassemble the Gunfighter base to access the dry clutch adjustment, so it's best to test your settings and get them 'just so" prior to re assembling the base when adjust the dry clutches. They work really well, smart addition from VKB IMO.

 

There is no necessary to twist right handle stick clockwise. If you use it as a center mount stick, you should rotate it CCW at some angle (15 deg. is fully enough), when you use it as a sidestick - you shouldn't twist it at all.

I disagree. It's obviously user pref, but even with sidestick on the right hand side, leaving the stick at straight ahead isn't nearly as comfortable as having 15 or so degrees clockwise twist locked down. If your post is accurate, then you shouldn't need any counter clockwise from the center then either for user preference, right? You said "you should rotate it at some angle" for the center...should right side stick users not be able to rotate it clockwise for the same reason? The Gunfighter CAN be used at straight ahead from the right both on desktop and in a mount - I've tried it with 2 Gunfighters from both desktop and in desktop clamp/mounts - it'd just be nice to be able to adjust the angle clockwise as you can with the T50. I'm far from the only one who prefers this, most of the videos and pictures I've seen of the T50 in the mount and being used as right side sidestick, those users have it twisted clockwise a bit as well. The Gunfighter would benefit from the same capability when mounted as right sidestick too.

 

 

Most importantly, the further out your sidestick is to the right, the more clockwise twist is of benefit. If you have your stick on the right side of the desktop, then no twist is fine, I've used every HOTAS made from the right side of the desktop, and never needed any clockwise twist, and most sticks never had the option anyway, and it wasn't missed. In a desktop drop mount like the Virpil system or Monster however, in order to clear both the chair and the chair's armrest especially with the racer type chairs, then the stick becomes much further to the right. This is where having clockwise twist is very beneficial, at least for me and the 3 others here who fly online.

 

 

If you don't have such a mount, you can't really tell until you try it - My T50 in the desktop clamp when mounted side stick on the right side, I use about a 15 degree clock wise twist, and it's perfect for me, having my arm on my DX racer chair arm rest mounted high as possible. It's still usable with the Gunfighter with no twist, but I'd really prefer it to be able to go both ways.

 

Again, I understand that when the Gunfighter is placed/used as center stick, no or left/counter clockwise twist is preferred, but it just isn't the case for side stick on the right, particularly in the available desktop clamp/mounts available both from Virpil or Monster (I have both).

Edited May 9, 2018 by Gman109

[Sokol1_br]

The only downside is you have to partially disassemble the Gunfighter base to access the dry clutch adjustment

 

In latest revision of Gunfighter base this adjust became external, in upper side of base (like in VPC), under the rubber boot.

 

https://i.imgur.com/XiQjAHB.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Lp8GDul.jpg

Edited May 9, 2018 by Sokol1_br

[dburne]

In latest revision of Gunfighter base this adjust became external, in upper side of base (like in VPC), under the rubber boot.

 

https://i.imgur.com/XiQjAHB.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Lp8GDul.jpg

 

Yeah too bad I ordered the original Gunfighter all that time ago, which still sits in box.

Learn from mistakes I guess.

 

In the meantime I am more than thrilled with my Virpil T-50 setup.

[Gman109]

In latest revision of Gunfighter base this adjust became external, in upper side of base (like in VPC), under the rubber boot.

As I said, you still have to PARTIALLY disassemble the Gunfighter to get at this adjustment - you have to remove 5 screws and the ring (and the stick itself come to think of it) to access the dry clutches. It's still easier and faster to adjust the T50 tension screws, that's what my point was, and still is, as it's accurate. To simply say it's external is to imply that you can directly adjust the clutches on the Gunfighter by accessing them with no extra work like the T50 - you can't, again, it takes 5 screws to be removed, the plate removed, then you can get at them. While easier than previous models, it's still technically internal IMO if you have to remove anything at all to get at the clutch adjustment screws, which you do. You also need to reinstall the stick while the ring/boot is off, to test the clutch settings, then remove it again when finished/satisfied, reinstall the boot, ring, screws, then stick again in reverse order. much more work compared to the T50's fine tune/tension adjustments which just need a long/thin flat screwdriver (and again, the T50 adjustments don't provide what the clutches can on the VKB in terms of locking position for helo/etc pilots).

 

 

Semantics I realize, but I want to be clear regarding function, so as not to receive negative feedback from anyone interested in either stick - both are excellent and have their own particular positive points (still can't find any serious negatives other than cost, hah), however simmers in this price range tend to be very interested in the details, and I wish to be as clear and as accurate as possible. The more questions and friendly debate on this subject, the better, the feedback I like as well as opposing viewpoints and discussion regarding features and personal prefs. Sim hardware is a very important subject matter for this and other online sims, IMO the next most important subject after the sim software itself, and possibly GPU/VR/LCD performance.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Gman109

[Flamin_Squirrel]

VKB stock in Europe still looks pretty limited. Shame.

[dburne]

VKB stock in Europe still looks pretty limited. Shame.

 

For North America it is non existing.

[Gman109]

It is a shame, however they've been making moves so far as larger facilities and putting it all under one roof - as has Virpil, Virpil has a big new sign on a nice new building.

 

It's my hope that this has a positive effect on stock issues, as well as a whole pile of other things, like innovation, QC (under one roof is great for this), and so forth.

 

I mentioned in the video that my latest MK2RevB Gunfighter I happened upon just by fluke, doing my common check for parts in stock (looking for a MFG stick for my Mk1 base unit only I found cheap and new online, as well as a TM adapter for same), and snapped it up instantly, it was the last one as they went to "red sad face" out of stock after I put the order through, boom, that fast.

 

I saw on their forums that they've wiped the current backlog of those who have been sitting in backorder, so hopefully this is good news, and that VKB will soon be pushing out more product.

 

VKB's products are truly great, their Mk3 pedals are what I started with so far as "custom" sim products go, and they as well as their 3 sticks and Mk4 pedals have been bullet proof, I'm very happy with their products. Very happy in fact is putting it too mildly, I'm very enthusiastic about VKB and Virpil's products, and will be purchasing any and all new products they put out.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Ya, I missed mentioning the clutches and dampening adjustments on both sticks. The tension adjustments on the T50 can be made from the top of the stick with a long flat screwdriver, really simple to do. The adjustments give some fine tuning capability in between the various springs you can swap out, best way I can describe it. There are holes in the top plate of the T50 unit so you don't have to peel the unit apart in order to make these adjustments, that's a bonus compared to the VKB stick. That said -

 

 

The VKB Gunfighter's clutches allow finer adjustment in felt tension on the stick itself as well, however they have more capability built in, as for example for say helo sim pilots, you can adjust the clutch for the forward/back cyclic motion to "lock" the stick in place and have it stay in place from wherever you've moved it. IE if you push ahead a certain amount of forward cyclic/front stick in a helo sim, you can let go of the stick and it'll stay there, IF you adjust the dry clutch to have the correct amount of adjustment to do so. The only downside is you have to partially disassemble the Gunfighter base to access the dry clutch adjustment, so it's best to test your settings and get them 'just so" prior to re assembling the base when adjust the dry clutches. They work really well, smart addition from VKB IMO.

 

Thanks. Does that lead to the VKB having a more 'solid' feel with the clutches turned up?

[sea2sky]

Nothing beats TM stick handle. It feels like holding a real gun. All the buttons are tight, require a good amount of force to be pressed etc. Love it. As much as it is a great handle the mechanics/gimbals is the worst. I prefer TM stick + Virpil base.

[98abaile]

Any comment about sticktion in the gunfighter? The dry clutches were a real turn off for me in the end because of the mere possibility of sticktion.