In Flight Refueling. Dying of frustration.

[Angus]

:thumbup: Congrats !

[BlackLightning]

Congratulations for your success.

I tried to do that the first time yesterday and after like a ten of attempts I gave up and I will try again for sure.

I tried that about the same number of times some months ago with FC3 planes and never succeeded.

Talking about the need of looking at the probe while getting closer to the tanker, I’d like to point out that:

-I’ve watched some videos to check whether the pilots of the Harrier look at the boom while refuelling and it seems to me that usually they do it. It is noticeable especially in this beautiful video @2:21:

as far as I’ve seen so far, the pilots usually get closer to the tanker looking at it and turn their head to the probe just before contact time and then turn it back to the tanker right afer contact.

-It is true that some aircrafts like the F15/16/22 do aerial refuelling even if the probe connects behind the pilot, but those use the KC135, which have director lights and a boom operator.

This doesn’t mean that in DCS it’s the best solution, especially without Track IR, but I’d like to do it like in real life... I think I’ll try both methods.

Maybe training with the SU33 could be easier since we can see the probe and the tanker in the same view.

[ZeroReady]

Blacklightning That video was awesome thanks for sharing!

 

I just want to add that even with TrackIr we do not have any peripheral vision or input cues from the jet. I think that's why pilots can turn their head and not lose control. So don't feel bad for just using the visual cues and lining up that way.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

What success? I barely held contact for 15 seconds and disconnected without even knowing why? I though I was holding position.Even after plug-in, if you close in too much, KC pulls the plug. Fall back too far and hose pulls off. Then KC goes into orbit bank. Its nuts I tell ya, nuts I say.

Life is much simpler in a Mig-21, and much funner in F-5E.

Harrier is like SR-71. In SR, according to Col. Rich Graham USAF(Ret.). Mission one for crew was flying the aircraft safely. Secondary mission had something to do with photography.

 

In Harrier your most demanding skill is plugging in and not crashing it in VSTOL. Everything else is secondary.

Edited August 23, 2018 by DmitriKozlowsky

[ZeroReady]

What success? I barely held contact for 15 seconds and disconnected without even knowing why? I though I was holding position.Even after plug-in, if you close in too much, KC pulls the plug. Fall back too far and hose pulls off. Then KC goes into orbit bank. Its nuts I tell ya, nuts I say.

Life is much simpler in a Mig-21, and much funner in F-5E.

Harrier is like SR-71. In SR, according to Col. Rich Graham USAF(Ret.). Mission one for crew was flying the aircraft safely. Secondary mission had something to do with photography.

 

In Harrier your most demanding skill is plugging in and not crashing it in VSTOL. Everything else is secondary.

 

I just started reading a book called A nightmare's Prayer. It's about Harrier pilots in Afghanistan. Sounds like it was really rough on those guys. The weather and mission tempo made just flying the jet and not dying priority number 1.

[Tricky11]

Got it! For a blessed 15-20 seconds (or so it seemed) I was in words of flying Texaco "Taking On Fuel". However prior to successfull contact the basket and/or its cable was inside the cockpit. Right in front of my face. How come there is no collision detection?

 

Golden Sight Picture

Top of HUD glass bisecting fuel pod.

Waypoint fixed caret with imaginery vertical line passing through it, center between fuel pod and prop edge.

Also refueling speed 249-250 knots, not 245 as stated in mission brief/kneeboard. At 247 I fall behind.

It appears to me that basket is magnetic. That is long probe is in some permissible distance from basket 'female' plug, the basket snaps to probe.

 

Just imagine the fun you would have if collision was a factor lol....

[DarkClown]

This thread inspired me to run some practice on this today and after a few runs had it down pretty good. I had one refuel that was super slick I pulled right up called pre-contact and stuck the drogue as it was extending. Not anything a real pilot would do. I was all like I'm going to save that track show everyone how awesome I am. Then when I replayed the track I found out track playback doesn't actually work right. The track shows me flying right by the tanker and well below it. Then at the point I was happily refueling it slows the plane to 212kts and the tanker passes back by.

 

I will say playing in VR probably makes this task a lot easier. Just like the real video I will glance at the drogue as it passes my head and then look back at the plane. This is not to make any correction just to make sure I'm going to stick it. If I need to correct (more than a little) I'm going to look back forward first and slow a little. I've pulled up pretty close before and still was taking fuel so not sure about it being to sensitive. Your angle may have been wrong (too low) or you got to aggressive with your inputs. You just got to keep the inputs minimal and remember to re-correct before you think you need to, especially throttle. Stay off the rudders too that seems to make it worse for me just little roll input.

 

oh if you are using the RAZBAM provided single A2A refuel missing, I would edit the mission and pull the tanker back closer to the harrier so that your not spending a bunch of time just catching up. This will give you a lot more time to practice connecting. You can also set a low bingo fuel and turn on your dump switches when you get close.

 

Maybe I'm using an older mission but the tanker is always doing 226kts for me

[BlackLightning]

Maybe training with the SU33 could be easier since we can see the probe and the tanker in the same view.

 

I've tried and it does look simpler to me because:

-I can see the probe,

-there is an automatic thrust control which works like the cruise control in a car: you set a speed and it stays that speed. If you don't use that, thrust management will be harder than in the Harrier because the airbrake deploys way slower and the throttle itself is IMO less manageable.

However, I didn't succeed with that airplane either.

With both the SU33 and the Harrier the part that I find the most difficult is handling the wake turbulence, also described in Chuck's guide. You want to fly straight but the big tanker plane in front of you moves the air and so you are shaken left and right and up and down.

I don't know whether the turbulent forces which act on the Harrier (or SU33 or other aircrafts) can be predicted. Are they cyclic? Or are they random?

 

[...] when I replayed the track I found out track playback doesn't actually work right. [...]

Sometimes track recording doesn't work properly: it's happened to me and other people who then wrote about it in the forum.

[Marsvinet]

-there is an automatic thrust control which works like the cruise control in a car: you set a speed and it stays that speed. If you don't use that, thrust management will be harder than in the Harrier because the airbrake deploys way slower and the throttle itself is IMO less manageable.

You shouldn't be cycling the airbrake. Either keep it in our out. Keeping it out in the harrier means you can actually slow down when the plane is light and the tanker flies slow. Can't speak for the flanker, but the same probably applies there. Keeping the airbrake out also means your engine will respond faster, since it's already at a higher RPM to keep the same speed.

[baltic_dragon]

This thread inspired me to run some practice on this today and after a few runs had it down pretty good. I had one refuel that was super slick I pulled right up called pre-contact and stuck the drogue as it was extending. Not anything a real pilot would do. I was all like I'm going to save that track show everyone how awesome I am. Then when I replayed the track I found out track playback doesn't actually work right. The track shows me flying right by the tanker and well below it. Then at the point I was happily refueling it slows the plane to 212kts and the tanker passes back by.

 

I will say playing in VR probably makes this task a lot easier. Just like the real video I will glance at the drogue as it passes my head and then look back at the plane. This is not to make any correction just to make sure I'm going to stick it. If I need to correct (more than a little) I'm going to look back forward first and slow a little. I've pulled up pretty close before and still was taking fuel so not sure about it being to sensitive. Your angle may have been wrong (too low) or you got to aggressive with your inputs. You just got to keep the inputs minimal and remember to re-correct before you think you need to, especially throttle. Stay off the rudders too that seems to make it worse for me just little roll input.

 

oh if you are using the RAZBAM provided single A2A refuel missing, I would edit the mission and pull the tanker back closer to the harrier so that your not spending a bunch of time just catching up. This will give you a lot more time to practice connecting. You can also set a low bingo fuel and turn on your dump switches when you get close.

 

Maybe I'm using an older mission but the tanker is always doing 226kts for me

 

Are you talking about a single mission or AAR training?

[BlackLightning]

You shouldn't be cycling the airbrake. Either keep it in our out. Keeping it out in the harrier means you can actually slow down when the plane is light and the tanker flies slow. Can't speak for the flanker, but the same probably applies there. Keeping the airbrake out also means your engine will respond faster, since it's already at a higher RPM to keep the same speed.

 

I can't say that's the proper way to do that, just that for a beginner it can be useful when one needs a quick way to reduce speed in order not to hit the tanker if he's getting closer a little too fast. I find it more effective than simply reducing throttle. Another way of reducing speed that I use is to pitch up and down.

I have to say that, after having seen videos of multifarious aircrafts getting air refuelled, I can't recall a single one in which they used the airbrake like I do (and for sure no one pitches up and down :lol:), so I hope that in the future I will learn to just use the throttle, with the airbrake steadily deployed/not deployed.

 

I've modified my aerial refuelling mission with the Harrier: now the tanker starts at an altitude of about 3k ft and reaches more than 20k. The reason is that I wanted to check whether the wake turbulence became negligible at some altitude, but it didn't.

 

Using Chuck's guide reference points I managed to get a contact for about 1 second without looking at the boom. A little step towards success... .

 

After having updated DCS yesterday I'm afraid that a bug has appeared: look at the attachment: how can the HUD be blurry for turbulence/maybe exhaust gas from the outside?

[Smoked]

Just keep at it. Several things made it easier for me... First, practice. Tanking is pretty easy now. Second. Get stable behind the tanker with trim and speed. Like it has been said, boards in, cruise flaps, and work the throttle. Try some curves. I had a hell of a time until I got some curves added into my cyclic. Finally, don't try and stop at the end of the basket. Aim to drive through the basket and push it up a 10-15 feet once you get connected. This allows you to stay connected easier and gives you some front to back motion. Once connected remember you're taking on weight, meaning more throttle while tanking and more nose trim to keep the nose up. Be ready for that..

 

 

edit to add...

 

Looks like the blurriness is heat blur off of the tankers engines.

[Mars Exulte]

Refueling is hard, no two ways about it. However, I believe AFC is supposed to be off, not on. As others said don't watch the basket, and refuel at appropriate speeds. It's not that bad once you get the hang of it. You're also not supposed to use any autopilot stuff.

 

If you can fly in formation, you can refuel.

[DarkClown]

@baltic_dragon yes I'm using the built-in single mission not the training mission.

 

Some notes that I think are wrong with the KC-130:

1. There doesn't seem to be any drag/resistance after you make contact. The documentation on this says if you approach at +2kts and the drogue will sow to you +0kts from the drag.

2. The lack of collision detection is lame (IMHO). I would love to have the fear of sucking the drogue into my intake.

3. The fuel cable should have white bands on it so you can see how far past the drogue you have flown without looking.

 

Some other interesting discoveries while I was goofing with refueling:

1. The KC-135 KCB(?) the one with the drogue adapter is broken and you can't refuel from it. This sucker was very hard to hit because of no reference point. I watch my probe go right through the basket and no connection.

2. If you fly the harrier inverted aerodynamics break down and for whatever reason you don't slow down at all in level flight (throttle cut). Even with the airbrake out I was not slowing down very much. Yes I was trying to refuel inverted. Of course you cant fly very long inverted either because the engine will flame out too. I just wanted to see if I could connect with the basket but once I would roll inverted the plan would speed up and not slow down so odd.

[defeatist99]

Trying, trying,X 5. Can't do it! Not to be negative d-bag about it, but I do not think I'll be able ever .

Couple of control ability problems.

 

After setting switches;

Probe OUT

AFC ON

ALT HOLD ON

Flaps CRUISE

 

Speed: tanker moves at 235 IAS. This the training short mission. I am unable to hold constant speed. A/C is either accelerating slightly or decelerating. There is no throttle setting that hold speed.

 

AFC and ALT HOLD keep kicking OFF by themselves as soon as I make a slightest correction.

 

Tanker and basket move up/down. I am unable to hold formation with tanker, and forget the basket. I cannot tell if its me or if its the tanker.

 

Probe is so far out of peripheral vision on screen, that I have shift view head and/or turn , I cannot see HUD . AR Light ark does remain in view READY ON Left /Right flashing. Once probe passes basket, Tanker calls BREAKAWAY.

 

I just don't understand the technique.

How are we supposed to do this?

 

Spend time flying formation. You need to practice that first. Spend like 20-30 minutes just flying formation near the contact position before even trying to tank. Work on your throttle. AAR really isn't that difficult in the harrier, in my opinion it's one of the easiest to tank with. Post contact it's really easy to keep in position.

 

Ignore the tanker calling breakaway. It's broken.

 

If you are having trouble refueling that slow with the flaps in cruise, try it with them in stol.

 

Sorry to say it's you my friend. You just need practice.

[baltic_dragon]

Guys, have you tried the training mission that is included in the module?It has all the pointers and requirements from NATOPS (so real life procedures) plus a some tips I got from an active duty Harrier pilot.

 

After I’ve built it I suceeded to refuel on second attempt.. and I always sucked at it. Give it a try and let me know if it helped.

[BlackLightning]

Guys, have you tried the training mission that is included in the module?It has all the pointers and requirements from NATOPS (so real life procedures) plus a some tips I got from an active duty Harrier pilot.

 

After I’ve built it I suceeded to refuel on second attempt.. and I always sucked at it. Give it a try and let me know if it helped.

 

The first time I did aerial refuelling was in the short version of the training mission, but after having read your post I tried the standard version, which seems to be the short one plus information about the fuel system before the refuel.

I jettisoned some fuel leaving 4,500 lbs as suggested by the narrator and I tried. I don't know how much fuel I had when I got pre contact from the tanker, but I quitted the mission with 1,700 lbs and no contact with the probe.

In both the short version I played some days ago and the longer one I played one hour ago I didn't make contact and at a certain point I heard the narrator yawning because he was bored :).

The problem IMHO is that I may abide by the procedure, trim my controls perfectly and set AFC on or off according to my preference and all this will make my life easier but still hard without a lot of practice, because of the wake turbulence I mentioned before.

 

At least, I learnt something about the fuel system and I managed to use little airbrake, this time.

 

 

Looks like the blurriness is heat blur off of the tankers engines.

 

That's what I think, too, but how can it affect the numbers and letters of the HUD if it comes from the outside?

[CoBlue]

With both the SU33 and the Harrier the part that I find the most difficult is handling the wake turbulence, also described in Chuck's guide.

 

 

AFAIK wake turbulence isn't modeled in DCS.

 

I've never experienced it, or even heard anybody mentioning it, in AAR, formation flying or formation take-offs.

 

Would gladly be proven wrong though .

Edited August 26, 2018 by CoBlue

[defeatist99]

AFAIK wake turbulence isn't modeled in DCS.

 

I've never experienced it, or even heard anybody mentioning it, in AAR, formation flying or formation take-offs.

 

Would gladly be proven wrong though .

 

If it is modeled it's absolutely minuscule. I pretty much guarantee it's not considering you can park right behind an aircraft taking off and it has no effect on you whatsoever. Also, you can fly trail directly in jet wash and have no issues either.

[DarkClown]

Perhaps what you think is wake turbulence is the fact your plane will rise fall as you apply remove power even if perfectly trimmed. I'm constantly moving the stick and throttle the entire time I'm refueling. You can't just hook the basket and chill out. Again small input where you are making them before you think you need to. Don't use AFC it just wont work. I've tried turning it on before and every time flying "level" makes my plane drop below the tanker and disconnect. BlackLightning what kind of joystick/throttle do you have? Maybe it has jitter or isn't precise enough.

 

I finally got a track to "accurately" record and have attached it. You can see how busy I am on the inputs (probably too busy). Sorry forgot to show the input window so you will need to look at the controls moving around. Without looking at the control inputs you would think the aircraft was flying nice and smooth. Hopefully it plays back correctly on someone else computer?

 

p.s. Yes I forgot to put flaps in cruise and didn't put my visor down.

refuel.trk

Edited August 26, 2018 by DarkClown

[BlackLightning]

Well, if you tell me that the turbulence is not modelled, the wobbling motion that I experience must be overcorrection of controls.

I've found the wake turbulence listed as a wish in some Wishlist threads, so you must be right about it.

I've watched some tracks of the training mission I've created and, provided they're reliable, the tanker flies at an altitude ranging from 4,999 to 5,000 meters, with a speed of 386-387 kmph and a constant heading of 355°, so its AI pilot does a great job and it's not the problem.

 

Don't use AFC it just wont work. I've tried turning it on before and every time flying "level" makes my plane drop below the tanker and disconnect.

This matches my experience with it: I don't use it either.

 

BlackLightning what kind of joystick/throttle do you have? Maybe it has jitter or isn't precise enough.

It's a T16000m. I don't think it has ever lacked precision, but after a lot of use it has some jitter, probably too much, and that's why I set deadzones for the curves.

By the way, talking about curves, I've found out that I haven't set them for the Harrier: I have straight lines, probably because in other kind of missions I didn't find it necessary. Iìll try and bend those linear curves: that should help with overcorrection.

 

 

Sorry forgot to show the input window so you will need to look at the controls moving around. Without looking at the control inputs you would think the aircraft was flying nice and smooth.

I was able to see it by pressing RCtrl+Enter during the replay.

 

Hopefully it plays back correctly on someone else computer?

I have a hunch it doesn't on my computer because I've seen the plane moving quite weird and never making contact...

Thank you anyway for having attached it.

[defeatist99]

Well, if you tell me that the turbulence is not modelled, the wobbling motion that I experience must be overcorrection of controls.

I've found the wake turbulence listed as a wish in some Wishlist threads, so you must be right about it.

I've watched some tracks of the training mission I've created and, provided they're reliable, the tanker flies at an altitude ranging from 4,999 to 5,000 meters, with a speed of 386-387 kmph and a constant heading of 355°, so its AI pilot does a great job and it's not the problem.

 

 

This matches my experience with it: I don't use it either.

 

 

.

 

You are only supposed to use the AFC when getting to the tanker and setting up your switches. Turning tacan off, getting the fuel probe out, setting flaps, working radios. Once in formation you shouldn't be using it at all.

[gulredrel]

Completed my first aerial refuelling in the Harrier.

Took off from Kobuleti with 4 emtpy external tanks and half internal fuel load.

Meet the tanker and it took me around 100 km trying to close in and coming near the contact point, than the tanker turned around.

First real contact was some seconds only, but than I stayed for transfer almost three minutes and lost it again cause I didn't throttled up fast enough to counter the change in weight.

Could re-establish contact some minutes to complete the transfer.

 

 

 

 

Regards

Jens

[Eagle7907]

In Flight Refueling. Dying of frustration.

 

Don’t be afraid to once you contact, move forward slightly to give yourself wiggle room so you don’t disconnect yourself. I do that all the time. Better than fighting the constant contact, disconnect, etc.

 

I do this even on the hornet.

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[gulredrel]

Did this during the second longer connect.

 

Only thing I was unable to get to work was the tanker's TACAN.

I set the TACAN via advanced actions and activated it after a trigger some seconds after tanker activation. This worked for the Tarawa, but not for the tanker.

I'm using stable 2.5.3 branch.

 

Regards

Jens