RalfiDude's F-14 Video

[Repth]

Sorry I ruffled your knickers. Having been a flight sim enthusiast and developer for more than 30 years, I dont need any help recognizing the significance of HB's accomplishment. It literally goes without saying. That doesnt make it immune from constructive criticism, however. My constructive criticism is:

 

1) Brevity could be improved.

 

2) The tone (angst) apparent in the voice-over feels a bit arcade-like to my ear. A stark contrast to the fidelity and professionalism exhibited by the rest of the product.

 

I dont "expect perfection", nor did I "hammer down" on anyone or anything. I said this particular video didn't do it for me. I also fail to see how a comment like mine could possibly have contributed to an unrealistic expectation regarding a release date...where did that come from?

 

I already bought the Tomcat and I plan on enjoying it, minor flaws and all.

 

Personally, I'd appreciate it if you were a little less hyperbolic when attacking people for not sharing your opinion.

 

 

Try not to take it as a personal attack on you DS. There has been a lot of heated discussion around the Tomcat as of late and it's getting a little tiresome and fraying some nerves around the community. That is where the comment around the December 21st release date came from.

 

A select few got it in their head that it could only be that date because of the maiden flight of the F-14 and the community took off with it despite HB's announcement that it could be anytime this winter. For many, they let their expectations get the best of them and it caused an uproar of complaints and attacks against HB.

 

The good thing is that Jester is only the basic implementation of the AI during the EA period and HB have let us know that the AI will grow in functionality over time :)

[OnlyforDCS]

 

1) Brevity could be improved.

 

2) The tone (angst) apparent in the voice-over feels a bit arcade-like to my ear. A stark contrast to the fidelity and professionalism exhibited by the rest of the product.

 

 

Respectfully I have to disagree on both points. Or rather, I think it's a matter of personal preference and what you consider flaws are in my opinion endearing charms. Let me explain my reasoning:

 

1) Apparently Brevity is quite a bit different between a two man crew sitting in the same aircraft than what you expect to hear over open radio comms. In fact there are many, many RL videos of F14 crews interacting in the cockpit where this can be heard and brevity use in the Navy differs from squadron to squadron and even from cockpit to cockpit. There is a nice thread about this subject in these very same forums:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=225585

 

2) As for the angst displayed by Jester, do you think that real pilots or RIOs are some kind of fearless supermen? Yes this is a sim, but Heatblur were trying to infuse some personality into their AI and no amount of training can prepare you for real combat. I expect that a lot of real pilots and RIOs lose quite a bit of their cool when going weapons hot, especially in the type of situation that Ralfi demoed, a 2 v 1 against Foxbats. To me Jester never sounds unprofessional, to me he sounds like someone who is in a fight for his life, which only adds to the immersion.

 

Yes there are some uneven bits here and there where he sounds excited or scared, then completely emotionless in his next line, but that is to be expected. An AI that can recognise all of the context and then choose the correct tone is something that is I think nearly impossible to code, at least within the limitations of DCS World.

Edited January 4, 2019 by OnlyforDCS

[DirtySanchez]

Yes, I agree. It's a matter of personal preference. I stated my personal preference and was attacked (albeit passive aggressively) for it. I'm no snowflake so my feelings aren't hurt, but I thought I'd point out the double standard.

 

I respect your opinion and I suspect a great many people/customers agree with you.

 

For the record, "MUD SPIKE" is demonstrably incorrect.

[Shadoga]

I believe brevity code is also an evolving system.

 

IIRC, "MUD", "MUD SPIKE" & "MUD LAUNCH" used to be correct code and were replaced by "DIRT", "SINGER" etc. somewhere in the evolution.

 

So, depending on what version or date of brevity code docs were used,

a more or less realistic '80ies, '90ies or 2000's voice package.

Only they can answer what was done and why and what is intentional or more or less correct or based on what source.

[DirtySanchez]

We've wandered a fair way from the point. It was never my intent to litigate the issue.

 

I disagree that the brevity has changed appreciably in the past 30 years. Occassionally individual terms are added and removed as the landscape changes (fielding of LINK-16, synchronization with NATO brevity, etc). But the vast majority of terms remain unchanged. MUD and SPIKE are two completely unrelated terms incorrectly paired together and popularized in Falcon 3 or 4 back in the 90s. A whole generation of armchair fighter pilots grew up thinking it's correct, but it's not.

 

Honestly, I made my comments in passing. I'm not here on a crusade.

[captain_dalan]

Some people here really have to give their expectations a reality check. What JESTER does is already way above everything else there is in DCS in this regard. JESTERs ability to support the pilot and speak to him are 1000x better and more immersive than the mute AI blokes you fly together in other aircraft (Huey, Gazelle). Instead of realizing what an increadible achievement JESTER is, some of you just hammer down on every little of JESTERs imperfections. I wish I would live in a perfect world too...

 

Sorry for ranting, but after all the work that HB did put into making this happen and now showing us the first results (JESTER will be improved continuously), it really bothers me that some people seem to expect heaven on earth. JESTER isn't perfect and will never be perfect, but for what he is supposed to be, he's already pretty awesome and I say that as someone who planned on flying the F-14 pretty much exclusively in multicrew coop without JESTER.

Maybe it got lost in translation....but....err.....i kinda like the current version of Jester :ermm:

 

 

Aroused, definitely aroused! ;)

 

 

1) Apparently Brevity is quite a bit different between a two man crew sitting in the same aircraft than what you expect to hear over open radio comms. In fact there are many, many RL videos of F14 crews interacting in the cockpit where this can be heard and brevity use in the Navy differs from squadron to squadron and even from cockpit to cockpit. There is a nice thread about this subject in these very same forums:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=225585

 

Essentially this ^^

Edited January 5, 2019 by captain_dalan

[Nexus-6]

Those details though

Indeed.

 

 

I can't wait to screw it up.

[Cunning_Fox]

RalfiDude's F-14 Video

 

Sorry I ruffled your knickers. Having been a flight sim enthusiast and developer for more than 30 years, I dont need any help recognizing the significance of HB's accomplishment. It literally goes without saying. That doesnt make it immune from constructive criticism, however. My constructive criticism is:

 

1) Brevity could be improved.

 

2) The tone (angst) apparent in the voice-over feels a bit arcade-like to my ear. A stark contrast to the fidelity and professionalism exhibited by the rest of the product.

 

I dont "expect perfection", nor did I "hammer down" on anyone or anything. I said this particular video didn't do it for me. I also fail to see how a comment like mine could possibly have contributed to an unrealistic expectation regarding a release date...where did that come from?

 

I already bought the Tomcat and I plan on enjoying it, minor flaws and all.

 

Personally, I'd appreciate it if you were a little less hyperbolic when attacking people for not sharing your opinion.

 

 

 

The lengths you have to go to to make sure that fanboys don’t attack you. I was jumped by them on Reddit, then mods banned me AND insulted me because apparently if you say anything about the F-14 module or criticise it in any way, a hundred thousand screeching babies will decide to ruin your day. To behave anything like a normal human being, and not a teenagerish British 60s girl seeing Beatles in front of her is extremely frowned upon. This is how sims get destroyed.

 

Don’t dare mention that F-14 was not a good platform - especially due to weak engines and bad missile effectiveness and their extreme cost, by the way, and most people were glad it was phased out in the Navy. Just sayin’ that a MiG-23 could easily take it on (well, unless it’s an unarmed Libyan scout that is literally WVR).

 

As for Jester - it’s one step away from being a buddy in a “certain” arcade game to provide plot development through dialogue. Maybe they’ll go even further and give him background in the campaign, like he used to be a shady mercenary who lost his entire family to a freak premature ejection accident.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited January 5, 2019 by Cunning_Fox

[Nexus-6]

"...Just sayin’ that a MiG-23 could easily take it on (well, unless it’s an unarmed Libyan scout that is literally WVR).

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=140030&page=10

 

 

 

 

OT, but this one has already been settled.

[HawkeyeHHDF]

Ralfi forgot to hit the master reset after coming out of oversweep. This inhibited the CADC from controlling wing sweep.

 

-Nick

Yeah typically he should come out of over sweep to 68 degrees where the wing sweep servo should be at, hit master reset and his W/S Light and CADC light should extinguish and then drive the wings forward manually using the thumb switch on the throttle

[turkeydriver]

The lengths you have to go to to make sure that fanboys don’t attack you. I was jumped by them on Reddit, then mods banned me AND insulted me because apparently if you say anything about the F-14 module or criticise it in any way, a hundred thousand screeching babies will decide to ruin your day. To behave anything like a normal human being, and not a teenagerish British 60s girl seeing Beatles in front of her is extremely frowned upon. This is how sims get destroyed.

 

Don’t dare mention that F-14 was not a good platform - especially due to weak engines and bad missile effectiveness and their extreme cost, by the way, and most people were glad it was phased out in the Navy. Just sayin’ that a MiG-23 could easily take it on (well, unless it’s an unarmed Libyan scout that is literally WVR).

 

As for Jester - it’s one step away from being a buddy in a “certain” arcade game to provide plot development through dialogue. Maybe they’ll go even further and give him background in the campaign, like he used to be a shady mercenary who lost his entire family to a freak premature ejection accident.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Facts please? Its ok to have opinion but you have zero facts- there is no document stating that the MiG-23(even MLD non export) is superior in anything other than running and zoom climb. Its Russian tactics were to stay low and attack straight up in the Western fighters RWR blind spot- take a quick shot and run. That was the Country of origin's tactic. It cannot out maneuver anything built after the F-4. BYW I love the MiG-23 and want it in DCS. Your opinion is ok, just let us know it has nothing to do with reality before you talk.

[OnlyforDCS]

The lengths you have to go to to make sure that fanboys don’t attack you. I was jumped by them on Reddit, then mods banned me AND insulted me because apparently if you say anything about the F-14 module or criticise it in any way, a hundred thousand screeching babies will decide to ruin your day. To behave anything like a normal human being, and not a teenagerish British 60s girl seeing Beatles in front of her is extremely frowned upon. This is how sims get destroyed.

 

Don’t dare mention that F-14 was not a good platform - especially due to weak engines and bad missile effectiveness and their extreme cost, by the way, and most people were glad it was phased out in the Navy. Just sayin’ that a MiG-23 could easily take it on (well, unless it’s an unarmed Libyan scout that is literally WVR).

 

As for Jester - it’s one step away from being a buddy in a “certain” arcade game to provide plot development through dialogue. Maybe they’ll go even further and give him background in the campaign, like he used to be a shady mercenary who lost his entire family to a freak premature ejection accident.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Complains about ad hominem attack, then engages in ad hominem attack. :doh:

[Cunning_Fox]

Facts please? Its ok to have opinion but you have zero facts- there is no document stating that the MiG-23(even MLD non export) is superior in anything other than running and zoom climb. Its Russian tactics were to stay low and attack straight up in the Western fighters RWR blind spot- take a quick shot and run. That was the Country of origin's tactic. It cannot out maneuver anything built after the F-4. BYW I love the MiG-23 and want it in DCS. Your opinion is ok, just let us know it has nothing to do with reality before you talk.

 

 

 

Just know that your opinion does not change facts, no matter how much you want it to be a Hollywood movie, okay? Just remember that.

 

MiG-23 MLD can easily take on Eagle, to say nothing of F-14. And as for facts - see the Phoenix missile effectiveness for yourself.

 

I also love how you probably know your “facts” from some Western “Military Expert” biography at most, as that’s not at all what MLD was designed for (sneak attacks are the stuff of transformers, maybe it’s time to change your comic books to textbooks)?

 

Good try though, made me laugh a bit at how you take your jab at me seriously. The one thing Westerners have going for them is their superiority complex. How well did that work in Iraq? )))

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cunning_Fox]

RalfiDude's F-14 Video

 

Complains about ad hominem attack, after engaging in ad hominem attack. :doh:

 

 

 

If you’re pushed - push harder. Some people are like stray dogs - they only understand forceful treatment. Nothing wrong with that.

 

 

Already there is some sizzling but thirst from Tom Cruise lovers like turkeydriver who just can’t help but try to demean anyone who doesn’t like their platform. By the way, even the later models of F-14 where the engine was finally replaced were way below Russian tech at the time. Even in early-mid 90s. The only reason Tomcat survived this long was because USSR collapsed, as taking out Carriers was no longer Bear’s primary job, neither was Tomcat meant for Fleet mission defence in 90s, as escort ships could easily perform that task instead.

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited January 5, 2019 by Cunning_Fox

[OnlyforDCS]

Well you obviously don't like the F14, so I guess there is absolutely every reason to believe you over everyone else, including the developers, actual pilots who worked with them on the module, and Eagle Dynamics over the veracity of this module and it's weapon systems. Obviously YOU know for a fact that the Tomcat can't hit anything other than the side of a barn and turns as slow as molasses and is inferior to anything the Soviets put in the sky, there is no need to provide any references because it's you who are telling us, it's just the way it is.

[Nexus-6]

Just know that your opinion does not change facts, no matter how much you want it to be a Hollywood movie, okay? Just remember that.

 

MiG-23 MLD can easily take on Eagle, to say nothing of F-14. And as for facts - see the Phoenix missile effectiveness for yourself.

 

I also love how you probably know your “facts” from some Western “Military Expert” biography at most, as that’s not at all what MLD was designed for (sneak attacks are the stuff of transformers, maybe it’s time to change your comic books to textbooks)?

 

Good try though, made me laugh a bit at how you take your jab at me seriously. The one thing Westerners have going for them is their superiority complex. How well did that work in Iraq? )))

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Speaking of "facts", you're going to have to actually provide some if you intend to be taken for anything other than just another troll.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[captain_dalan]

Guys....you're being baited..... :glare:

[Top Jockey]

The lengths you have to go to to make sure that fanboys don’t attack you. I was jumped by them on Reddit, then mods banned me AND insulted me because apparently if you say anything about the F-14 module or criticise it in any way, a hundred thousand screeching babies will decide to ruin your day. To behave anything like a normal human being, and not a teenagerish British 60s girl seeing Beatles in front of her is extremely frowned upon. This is how sims get destroyed.

 

Don’t dare mention that F-14 was not a good platform - especially due to weak engines and bad missile effectiveness and their extreme cost, by the way, and most people were glad it was phased out in the Navy. Just sayin’ that a MiG-23 could easily take it on (well, unless it’s an unarmed Libyan scout that is literally WVR).

 

As for Jester - it’s one step away from being a buddy in a “certain” arcade game to provide plot development through dialogue. Maybe they’ll go even further and give him background in the campaign, like he used to be a shady mercenary who lost his entire family to a freak premature ejection accident.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Not pretending to be the owner of the true or anything of that sort, but I believe you are wrong there.

 

If you are refering to the 2nd Gulf of Sidra incident in 1989, well... records show that the MiG-23s managed to get close to the F-14s, and at the least one MiG-23 was indeed shot down WVR, after some brief air combat maneuvering.

 

What do you mean by: " unarmed Libyan scout " ?

At the least one of the MiGs was carrying AA-7 Apex missiles, Radar or IR, which could be fired head-on.

 

Also I don't quite see the MiG-23 as some kind of "scout", I believe it pretty much was the most dangerous jet fighter Kadhafi had at that time.

[Cab]

Just know that your opinion does not change facts, no matter how much you want it to be a Hollywood movie, okay? Just remember that.

 

MiG-23 MLD can easily take on Eagle, to say nothing of F-14. And as for facts - see the Phoenix missile effectiveness for yourself.

 

I also love how you probably know your “facts” from some Western “Military Expert” biography at most, as that’s not at all what MLD was designed for (sneak attacks are the stuff of transformers, maybe it’s time to change your comic books to textbooks)?

 

Good try though, made me laugh a bit at how you take your jab at me seriously. The one thing Westerners have going for them is their superiority complex. How well did that work in Iraq? )))

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

This is breathtaking. It never would have occurred to me that someone would publicly make such a claim. I feel like I am reading a post by a flat-earther.

 

You'd think some people never saw Top Gun.

[Seb71]

You'd think some people never saw Top Gun.

That's not exactly proof, either.

[Victory205]

Mig 23, why I've actually fought those prehistoric junkers. What a riot!

Edited January 5, 2019 by Victory205

[Dudikoff]

What do you mean by: " unarmed Libyan scout " ?

At the least one of the MiGs was carrying AA-7 Apex missiles, Radar or IR, which could be fired head-on.

 

Also I don't quite see the MiG-23 as some kind of "scout", I believe it pretty much was the most dangerous jet fighter Kadhafi had at that time.

 

Edit: completely misplaced the date of the MiG-23 incident with the Su-22 one, never mind.

 

I do remember reading at several places that the shot down variant was a MiG-23MS, not sure if that was correct.

Edited January 5, 2019 by Dudikoff

[BlackLion213]

The lengths you have to go to to make sure that fanboys don’t attack you. I was jumped by them on Reddit, then mods banned me AND insulted me because apparently if you say anything about the F-14 module or criticise it in any way, a hundred thousand screeching babies will decide to ruin your day. To behave anything like a normal human being, and not a teenagerish British 60s girl seeing Beatles in front of her is extremely frowned upon. This is how sims get destroyed.

 

Don’t dare mention that F-14 was not a good platform - especially due to weak engines and bad missile effectiveness and their extreme cost, by the way, and most people were glad it was phased out in the Navy. Just sayin’ that a MiG-23 could easily take it on (well, unless it’s an unarmed Libyan scout that is literally WVR).

 

Well I won't insult you, but it is awefully hard to respect you when you write things like this ^^. I do have to question your information though. If you can't defend your stance then that says a lot about what it is built upon. :)

 

All the 4th generation US fighters are very dangerous opponents. It would not surprise me if the MiG-23MLD was also very capable at WVR and I haven't seen any performance data on it. Have you? It would be interesting to have some numbers to corroborate your claims.

 

My primary objection is that, frankly, no aircraft currently exists that can undertake a WVR fight against a 4th generation fighter without a moderate risk of losing. Air to air encounters are highly variable and are not neutral fights outside of training. So while one aircraft or another may have the upper hand, they have no assurance of victory.

 

But here is some data to help demonstrate what I mean. At 55,600 lbs gross weight (4 AIM-9s and 4 AIM-7s) the F-14B can sustain a 16.3 deg rate of turn at 5000' with an max instantaneous turn rate of 23 deg. The F-14A's sustained rate is slightly less at 15.5 deg while instantaneous is the same. For reference, the F-16A (with 2 AIM-9s and 3000 lbs of fuel) is 18 deg sustained at mach 0.8 (vs 0.6 for the F-14) and the same max instantaneous rate of 23 deg.

 

Also, here is a comparison of the F-14 vs the F-16C and F-15C (note the F-16C is heavier and gives up some performance to the super light F-16A):

 

 

Do you have any data to support your claim? To "easily" defeat the F-14 or F-15 it probably needs at least 3-4 deg more per second of sustained turn rate (so about 20 deg sustained at 5000'). That would be a pretty impressive turn rate!

 

-Nick

[shagrat]

Not pretending to be the owner of the true or anything of that sort, but I believe you are wrong there.

 

If you are refering to the 2nd Gulf of Sidra incident in 1989, well... records show that the MiG-23s managed to get close to the F-14s, and at the least one MiG-23 was indeed shot down WVR, after some brief air combat maneuvering.

 

What do you mean by: " unarmed Libyan scout " ?

At the least one of the MiGs was carrying AA-7 Apex missiles, Radar or IR, which could be fired head-on.

 

Also I don't quite see the MiG-23 as some kind of "scout", I believe it pretty much was the most dangerous jet fighter Kadhafi had at that time.

Of course it managed to get close, the F-14 had to abide by their ROE and tried to avoid the confrontation by changing course/turning multiple times... the comms recording and gun camera is declassified, since a while.

 

EDIT found a good link.

Edited January 5, 2019 by shagrat

[Top Jockey]

Of course it managed to get close, the F-14 had to abide by their ROE and tried to avoid the confrontation by changing course/turning multiple times... the comms recording and gun camera is declassified, since a while.

 

EDIT found a good link.

 

Yes I know.

 

But english is not my native laguage, so it shoud have been writen: "as the hostilities started" or something.