Buggy Flight model 2.5

[KoN]

Stable .2.5

 

Any updates to flight model seems very odd to fly now . Bouncy nose and stalls seem it likes no input for stick . Only trim .

 

Campaign is buggy also with 2.5 .I get Wrong speed and alt dials pause and HuD goes out . ? Bad pixels from cockpit and bad lighting . 2.5 style . >?

 

Why Night missions . ? With CAP .

Ive Never finished the campaign since ive had this due to updates braking the moduel . . pre-ordered .

Edited February 10, 2019 by Con

[Nealius]

The FM feels fine to me other than a tendency to roll right at high (typically supersonic) speeds.

 

Wrong speed and alt dials paused .

 

Turn on pitot heat.

[KoN]

The FM feels fine to me other than a tendency to roll right at high (typically supersonic) speeds.

 

 

 

Turn on pitot heat.

 

 

Thanks ill look into this . :cry:

[Basco1]

The FM feels fine to me other than a tendency to roll right at high (typically supersonic) speeds.

 

Turn on pitot heat.

 

 

Sorry Nealius......Whilst the FM may feel fine to you,the DCS FM is no way characteristic to that of the real MiG-21.

 

 

It's very slow and sluggish to turn,it's clumsy in flight.....these two characteristics are in plain contrast to how apparently the real aircraft performed.Read any flight reports of the MiG-21 and your read it was a real thoroughbred,it turned on a sixpence and unlike our DCS FM......it was a very nimble,and accurate aircraft to fly.

 

 

I have recently been reading the flight reports of USAF F-4 pilots facing the MiG-21 in Vietnam,and their reports only back up to what I had previously read about the MiG-21.All of these F-4 pilots tell of a very fast,lightweight,nimble F1 style of aircraft that could easily out turn them,flying their F-4's.

 

 

Sorry if this makes difficult reading to the DS MiG-21 devs,but your FM doesn't even come close to the real MiG-21.It is not my intention to cause any offence whatsoever,but I cannot accept the FM is a true representation to that of the real thing either.....Sorry.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Basco1

[Esac_mirmidon]

Vietnam War Mig-21 were MiG-21F-13, Mig21PFL, Mig-21 PFM and MiG-21MF.

 

No Mig-21Bis.

 

So before judging the Bis FM try to read something about the same model we have, not previous versions with diferent engines, weight, thrust, internal fuel capacity and so on and so for.

[Nealius]

To add to that, I recently watched an aircrew interview with a Finnish pilot who flew all the MiG-21 variants in Finnish service. He also said that the MiG-21F was the best handler, while the MiG-21bis did not handle as well. All of my perceptions of the flight model agree with his.

[Basco1]

Vietnam War Mig-21 were MiG-21F-13, Mig21PFL, Mig-21 PFM and MiG-21MF.

 

No Mig-21Bis.

 

So before judging the Bis FM try to read something about the same model we have, not previous versions with diferent engines, weight, thrust, internal fuel capacity and so on and so for.

 

 

Lol.....No,don't buy that,The Mig-21MF used in Vietnam from 1972 onwards,is not that dissimilar to that of the MiG-21Bis.....the engines are basically the same,R13-300 Turbojet/R25-300 Turbojet,giving almost the same thrust,the avionics are the same and the aerodynamics of the aircraft are the same....so how come it would be so different ?

 

The reports from the F-4 pilots were taken during the ' Linebacker II' offensive of 1972.....so they would've been discussing the traits of the MF.

 

Sorry but your argument doesn't stack up.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Basco1

[Esac_mirmidon]

Everything is on books out there but saying the MF is the same as the Bis.....Not arguments, just facts.

 

MF Engine R13-300 ( Thrust around 9000 lbf dry - 14.000 lbf AB )

Bis Engine R25-300 ( Thrust around 12.000 lbf dry - 15.500 lbf AB - 22.000 lbf in Max AB )

 

Bis upgrades: Aerodinamically cleaner fuselage spine, changes in fuel load for better perfomance, new SAU system, Lazur-Polyot equipment, RP-22M Radar, better ASP-PFD sight for increasing G tolerance while using the cannon, etc.

 

So , not the same plane, not the same FM, not the same flight perfomance at all.

 

If you want to do the job i can link here the real Mig-21 Bis manual with plenty of perfomance charts so you can take that reference information, climb on the Mig-21 inside DCS and make some flight test comparing the real charts with DCS numbers.

 

Then came back and share your tests here.

 

Then we can talk about numbers, charts, perfomances and FM.

 

Not feelings.

 

You can start with this, is quite famous around this forums, and the DCS Bis quite acurated to it.

 

 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Esac_mirmidon

[Basco1]

Yes....but your missing the point.

 

If we are to go on your wonderful performance stats,the Bis should be even better to fly than the MF,consolodating my argument,it has,I agree more thrust,the aerodynamic are relatively better,having been cleaned up,and on paper it comes out on top.

 

But the point is......in DCS it flies like a dog !........it's terrible,this is what we are all arguing about......the FM is shite !....have you flown it recently ?

 

Feelings don't come into it fella,the key fact is,that it is crap,and is in no way a true representation of the real thing.

 

MiG-21 variant models aside,the FM is porked and requires IMHO a re think,or at the very least a brand new evaluation.It is,as some guy put it the other day.....the worst FM in DCS.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Basco1

[Esac_mirmidon]

Im not saying the Bis is wonderful.

 

Im saying is DIFFERENT, from Vietnam War versions.

 

Vietnam 21's had less engine thrust but also talking in general, were lighter, nimble, more handly than the Bis. the older the version, the lighter more nimble were.

 

The Bis was a great update with a very powerful engine, faster and

better T/W ratio but at an overall cost of beeing heavier and not so nimble.

 

Also the previous Phantom versions to the E were absolutely turning bricks so even a Mig-21 inside a Phantom pilots mind should seem like Ali punching Foreman all around.

 

But the real champions of turning fights were the Mig-17.

[Wizard_03]

The current FM matches the published performance charts very closely. Can’t quantify feelings, the numbers are all that matters.

[Cake]

I've flown the MiG-21 in DCS recently. I just did a bunch of touch and goes and hangared it. It's harder to fly well than some other aircraft. The reality is that I'm not going to give it enough time to learn to fly it well anytime soon. I also feel that my personal flight controls (Warthog) might not be doing the 21bis any justice as I'm not sure I can convey enough finesse with them for this bird.

 

Basco, I think you should keep in mind who the comments on the 21 handling were coming from. They were coming from F4 pilots, not F15, F16, or F18 pilots. Makes me wonder what the F-8 pilots though of the 21s handling? The F4 was by no means light and nimble.

[Basco1]

No Cake......I was referring that the MiG-21 was light and nimble,not the F-4.

[Esac_mirmidon]

OK.

 

No cake.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

The 21bis is only a step down from the 21SMT, which was the heaviest and most sluggish of -21's. You really can't compare the bis to the PFLs, PFMs, MFs, and F-13s that flew for the VPAF.

In addition, ED has signed off on the FM:

The programmer for the flight model has stressed it will remain as is. As stated before in previous posts, actual real-time flight data recordings from a Serbian MiG-21Bis (75B) were presented to Eagle Dynamics as requested. There were no objections towards the data presented and all discrepancies in existing documents were explained. Fret not, other bugs will continue to be fixed though.

 

The Fishbed-N is a different breed of Fishbed than what the popular (and a bit exaggerated) conception of it really is.

 

But, don't let me discourage you. If you have charts specifically for a MiG-21bis (75B) that counter the existing performance, please post them. Seriously, please post them. You're not just doing us all a favor by helping the module achieve better accuracy, but you'd be helping Dolphin887 as it'd mean one of the Serbian AF Fishbeds needs looking at.

Edited February 13, 2019 by MiG21bisFishbedL

[Basco1]

The 21bis is only a step down from the 21SMT, which was the heaviest and most sluggish of -21's. You really can't compare the bis to the PFLs, PFMs, MFs, and F-13s that flew for the VPAF.

In addition, ED has signed off on the FM:

 

 

For the record I have not,nor at anytime compared this Mig-21Bis to the PFLs, PFMs,and F-13 models,I am quite aware that these were very light 21's,and comments on here are misconstrueing my atcual words,please read what I have written a little more precisely,lol.

 

I have pointed out however in so many words,that the Bis is not a million miles different to that of the MF,but we've discussed that,so movin' on.

 

Yeah,with all respect,the fact that ED has signed off on the FM really is neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned,Donald Duck may have signed it off,it still wouldn't mean a thing to me,lol.

 

If you really think that,that rubber band nose effect and the daft stall effect incorporated into this FM is true to life,then who am I to persuade you otherwise.

 

However,there's quite a number of us who beg to differ,read the forum.....especially the ' Bugs ' section,you'll see I'm not alone.

Edited February 13, 2019 by Basco1

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Yeah,with all respect,the fact that ED has signed off on the FM really is neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned,Donald Duck may have signed it off,it still wouldn't mean a thing to me,lol.

Considering they hold the reigns and might just be more experienced in what's possible with DCS and what degree of realism is possible, their input is quite important. After all, they don't just program for the consumer market.

 

If you really think that,that rubber band nose effect and the daft stall effect incorporated into this FM is true to life,then who am I to persuade you otherwise.

 

However,there's quite a number of us who beg to differ,read the forum.....especially the ' Bugs ' section !

 

And all of that is utterly irrelevant since if it's being quantified with feelings and not data. Seriously, those who post charts and flight envelopes objectively benefit the sim as a whole. Furthermore, who am I to believe here?: Dolphin887, who is an actual MiG-21 jockey who has telemetry from a working example, or rando-forum users who say "it feels off?"

 

So, really, given how small these development teams are in the 3rd part scene? They'd really welcome the help finding these FM issues so they can be resolved. But, if all you have to offer is "it's wrong, fix it" then you're not offering a real avenue for them to take for improvement.

[Basco1]

.....I've got to say,your very good at misreading what has actually been written aren't you ?.....where did I write 'it's wrong, fix it' ??....please do not misconstrue what I have actually written,ok ?,thanks.

 

Right....Please try and understand this,I am merely asking for an evaluation of it,and that,I for one,do not believe this FM to be a true representation of the real aircraft.......this you can quote me on if you must.

 

This is all I am asking ok ?......,no one on here is asking for the Hadron Collider to be dismantled

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

.....I've got to say,your very good at misreading what has actually been written aren't you ?.....where did I write 'it's wrong, fix it' ??....please do not misconstrue what I have actually written,ok ?,thanks.

 

Right....Please try and understand this,I am merely asking for an evaluation of it,and that,I for one,do not believe this FM to be a true representation of the real aircraft.......this you can quote me on if you must.

 

This is all I am asking ok ?......,no one on here is asking for the Hadron Collider to be dismantled

 

The programmer for the flight model has stressed it will remain as is. As stated before in previous posts, actual real-time flight data recordings from a Serbian MiG-21Bis (75B) were presented to Eagle Dynamics as requested. There were no objections towards the data presented and all discrepancies in existing documents were explained. Fret not, other bugs will continue to be fixed though.

 

:music_whistling:

[Esac_mirmidon]

Sorry if this makes difficult reading to the DCS MiG-21 devs,but your FM doesn't even come close to the real MiG-21.It is not my intention to cause any offence whatsoever,but I cannot accept the FM is a true

 

I think this could mean the same as "wrong".

 

Dont you think?

 

But please make your own research and evaluation, you have plenty of data to use from real charts. I can provide you a copy.

Edited February 13, 2019 by Esac_mirmidon

[Basco1]

@ Mig21FishbedL.......Yeah,we can all see you've mastered the ' Quote ' option on your PC....believe me,we're all very impressed mate.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

@ Mig21FishbedL.......Yeah,we can all see you've mastered the ' Quote ' option on your PC....believe me,we're all very impressed mate.

 

Or you could read that text. Or choose to ignore it like you have been. Up to you if you can find the time between typing out periods.

[Brigg]

Out of curiosity what model fishbed do we have in DCS?

[Robert31178]

Ok, a few things Mirmodon...

 

It's reported/speculated that Foreman may have been drugged by someone in Ali's employ, so the fight wasn't fair most likely......

 

While the Phantom was a turning brick it did have one thing going for it that no other war plane in the world had - HUGE amounts of thrust. When you get into the Have Donut program you see that the Navy's F-4B could hang with the MiG-21 of the day. They were similar in rate of turn and acceleration, but being a delta wing the MiG-21 was at disadvantages in lower altitude engagements, fight below 15k feet. The F-4 was at it's best around 450kts, and could create vertical separation that the little MiG just couldn't. Use a lag pursuit to saddle in behind and outside of the MiG. These techniques came from the USN fighting captured MiGs kept at Point Mugu, and also from them collaborating with Israelis who had a shitload of experience fighting MiGs, pretty much they went to the IAF and said "teach us how to use our own jet".

 

It's true, the real turning champ was the MiG-17.....in that era. Put it against a Zero or an Oscar and it'll be at a distinct disadvantage in a turn fight and would have to switch to maneuvers that warbrids don't do well, like maneuver in the vertical plane, which brings us right back to why the Phantom whipped that ass once they figured out they couldn't turn with it.

 

I keep pounding the table with the old "read this book!!"....so here we go again. Robert K. Wilcox, "The Scream Of Eagles". It's all about the USN standing up Top Gun, and how the core group took the Phantom from being a plane almost worthless as a fighter and turned it into an absolute menace for the VPAF. The USN finished the conflict with a 12:1 kill ratio, which actually is closer to 25:1, but someone managed to get busted right before the conflict ended, messing up their stats party a little. the USAF didn't want to take the lessons away with all of the Have Donut/Have Drill info and maintained a solid 2:1 right through to the end. Even Brig Gen Olds flew in the Have programs and reportedly got waxed a bunch and was just frustrated whit the whole thing and refused to listen to his USN backseater.

 

The Phantom could tangle with the MiG's, it just had to fight to it's strengths. I know everyone here already knows that, but everyone seems to forget it in these discussions, claiming that one plane was superior to another, so here's my list as I see it from all of the info I've read through:

 

MiG-21 - stay slow, high, and turn the shit out of it. You're hard to see.

 

F-4 - Stay fast, don't try to turn inside of a MiG, lag pursuit until he makes the next move; fight in the vertical with your superior energy gaining capability.

Edited February 13, 2019 by Robert31178

[Esac_mirmidon]

Nice reading Robert. I agree.