Blackshark Question????

[Kula66]

And point me to an airframe that would have survived in that environment...?

 

I didn't because I'm sure the A-10 is the most survivable plane out there ... low-level battlefield AD is just too dangerous (Tunguskas) and too numerous (manpads).

 

Up high, above 10k would have been filled with Migs, SU, SA-10s etc ... look at Kosovo - A-10s had to go high and Apaches couldn't work - and that was nowhere near as hot as WWIII!

 

I was just saying that the environment was too hot for any plane to fly - lots of good men(women) on both sides would have died very quickly!

[zaelu]

The question is: what good is a "rate" if you are the one going down? :D

[nscode]

Read "A-10s Over Kosovo: The Victory of Airpower Over a Fielded Army as Told by Those Airmen Who Fought in Operation Allied Force "...and then tell me they don't get the job done in European terrain!

 

http://www.amazon.com/10s-Over-Kosovo-Airpower-Operation/dp/1585661228/ref=sr_1_1/102-4655755-2825748?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185942958&sr=1-1

 

Look at the almost untouched Serbian armor that pulled out of Kosovo, and then tell me they do :smilewink:

 

As for it surviving, nothing to say against that... it got hit plenty of times.. and pulled out

[Groove]

nscode but you must admit that most of the serbian armor was hided during the war.

 

like trains with equipment in tunnels.

 

of course every army would do that but i think a-10s destroyed what they could see.

[nscode]

Hidden - yes. But mostly in woods. Tunnels got hit...

[RvETito]

Plane like A-10 will step into the combat scene only after the fighters have established total air superiority and SEAD. So actualy it's not supposed to face anything stronger than shoulder launched SAMs and AAA. Not that this can't bring it down but this makes senseful a comparison with quiet limited number of aircraft. Personally, it's not my fav CAS platform - looks like a flying harvester, but one thing grabs me about it- that mighty cannon! I've read that the aiframe is built around that 30mm spray. Nasty!

[Colt40Five]

Look at the almost untouched Serbian armor that pulled out of Kosovo, and then tell me they do :smilewink:

 

As for it surviving, nothing to say against that... it got hit plenty of times.. and pulled out

 

I'm not saying they hit everything in the country. The Serbs were cunning opponents. Very good at using the terrain, hiding their forces, creating decoys etc...But they fact that they had to hide, restrict their movements, make decoys etc was because if they didn't, they would get hit. That limited their ability to fight almost as much as getting outright destroyed. That is also proof of how effective the A-10 was.

[Jester_159th]

I'm not saying they hit everything in the country. The Serbs were cunning opponents. Very good at using the terrain, hiding their forces, creating decoys etc...But they fact that they had to hide, restrict their movements, make decoys etc was because if they didn't, they would get hit. That limited their ability to fight almost as much as getting outright destroyed. That is also proof of how effective the A-10 was.

 

No, that's just proof of how effective CAS can be when one side has total air superiority. The Allies did the exact same thing to the Wehrmacht in France after the Normandy landings.

 

The A-10 is a superb CAS aircraft. If it wasn't the US govt. wouldn't have extended it's service life. But no matter how good it is, in an environment where the US don't have complete air superiority or large numbers of ground air defence units are still in operation, it's toast. Doesn't matter how good it is, without the right operating environment neither it nor any other low level CAS aircraft will last long enough to do any good.

[Colt40Five]

Well duh! we're talking about the best CAS aircraft...so of course it has to operate in a suitable environment with ECM/fighter protection...no one has said it's the best ALL AROUND aircraft...that's just dumb.

[Azrayen]

Meanwhile, the A-10 and their pilots have proved they can be very adaptative during the Gulf war in 1991 : Trained for daily CAS over the FLOT, they learned pretty quiclky how to operate by night, in altitude or far away from their bases...

 

++

Az'

[Kula66]

You really are clueless about the A-10 aren't you. Do you think the A-10's are first to go into battle, read the book that Colt40Five said in post #23.

 

AirTito Plane like A-10 will step into the combat scene only after the fighters have established total air superiority and SEAD.

 

And what happens if you never truely establish air-super? Do they stay on the ground? The Red AF only had to keep NATO off the backs of the tankers to win! A regisment of T-72s sitting at Ramstein AB is the best air-superiority weapon out!

 

In a WWIII scenario you wouldn't have the luxury of saying "We'll only send in the A-10s when we have control of the air ... " that may never happen! You may never shut down the AD network ... you haven't got enough HARMs!!

 

GWI and GW2 are nothing like WWIII - not even close

[Colt40Five]

You don't have to control the air all the time, just at certain periods over the areas you operate in... you send the a-10s in with ECM aircraft(for protection from ADS) and fighter support(protection from A-A threat)...not all by themselves!

 

In a real WWIII scenario the only thing flying will be the debris from thousands of nuclear detonations.

[Jester_159th]

Well duh! we're talking about the best CAS aircraft...so of course it has to operate in a suitable environment with ECM/fighter protection...no one has said it's the best ALL AROUND aircraft...that's just dumb.

 

Then maybe you should have made it clear in the post I quoted that that is what you meant.

 

You presented the A-10's performance against the Serbs as proof of it's capabilities (in fact you used that exact phrase). I simply pointed out all it proved was the capabilities the CAS role in general... Not just the A-10.

[Avimimus]

You don't have to control the air all the time, just at certain periods over the areas you operate in... you send the a-10s in with ECM aircraft(for protection from ADS) and fighter support(protection from A-A threat)...not all by themselves!

 

In a real WWIII scenario the only thing flying will be the debris from thousands of nuclear detonations.

 

What happens if the fighter sweep fails? If the SEAD strike isn't large enough? If co-ordination is lost between the elements?

 

The thought of flying down a valley as an isolated pair of aircraft, surrounded by SAMs and seeing 20+ Mig-29s barely miss spotting you, makes me want to fly the Hog...

[159th_Viper]

What happens if the fighter sweep fails? If the SEAD strike isn't large enough? If co-ordination is lost between the elements?

 

That's EXACTLY when you send in the T-Frogs :D

[Kula66]

That's EXACTLY when you send in the T-Frogs :D

 

The shear ugliness will repel the enemy! ;)

[Blacknemisis]

Do you guys think that if the Rebels in Iraq have gotten there hands on some shoulder mounted SAM like the stinger would more low flying aircraft would have going down like the Hog. Just asking because that is what turn the battle with Afgan when Russia invaded it.

[Esac_mirmidon]

This not turned the battle, this turned the tactics...

 

The battle were turned by other reasons...( mostly political interest )

[golfsierra2]

The shear ugliness will repel the enemy! ;)

 

Like the earth is repelling all helos - they are so ugly, but it makes them hover....

[NotiA10]

there are horses for courses. i just mentioned it today on the lockonfiles forum although in a slightly different context. two different types of planes with a different concept behind them. nevertheless, both require a certain environment to be able to accomplish its mission and to operate as intended. in both cases air supperiority to a more or lesser extend is an essential part without risking to be shot down. yes the 25T is good when it comes to take out med/long range sams but there is no real big advantage of an kh58 if the radar (e.g. tor system or tung) can only be detected from approx 15 miles or less. you still have to get within the detection zone in order to launch the missiles (at least this is how it is in the game). up against those (again at least in the game) the a10 is just as able. when it comes down to manpads both are just as likely to be shot with a slight advantage for the a10 in terms of getting the pilot and the plane home.

 

the a10 has certainly proven to be a very able and valuable plane and i think that there is no shortage of prove. knowing its limitations and abilities when planning is of the same importance as with anything else - whether it be ground units, infantry, helos, fighters, rifles etc ....

 

 

 

:pilotfly:

S77th-NotiA10

[EvilBivol-1]

Do you guys think that if the Rebels in Iraq have gotten there hands on some shoulder mounted SAM like the stinger would more low flying aircraft would have going down like the Hog. Just asking because that is what turn the battle with Afgan when Russia invaded it.

 

In a quick check of numbers I did on wikipedia, if you look at the number of Soviet helicopter losses over Afghanistan in the 10 years of that war and coalition losses over Afghanistan and Iraq so far, the overall averages are pretty close.

 

Not a deep analysis, but I think it says something about general tactical principles. I think this will only begin to change now, as coalition choppers begin to field more advanced countermeasures and the other guys aren't able to field more advanced systems in return.

[Colt40Five]

The MANPAD has definitely changed the game. I've read a lot about the Vietnam air war, and it was routine to fly well below 10k ft for all aircraft types. This would be suicide today.

[Avimimus]

Do you guys think that if the Rebels in Iraq have gotten there hands on some shoulder mounted SAM like the stinger would more low flying aircraft would have going down like the Hog. Just asking because that is what turn the battle with Afgan when Russia invaded it.

 

There are plenty still lying around and they are appearing in Iraq. I believe the Russians initially responded agressively and kept low altitude operations going for some time.

 

The Russian's initially responded to their experience in Afganistan by considering rearward firing guns and rockets to supress manpads. I think now they are planning on using good optics and stand off attacks (SH-90 for instance). IR jammers might also eventually force larger seekers (and larger boosters and fixed launchers requiring multiple infantry to carry them).

 

I can't believe Canada got sucked into Afganistan instead of going into Iraq (we're getting twice the attrition rate).