[NO BUG] New AIM-9 tone is painful

[TLTeo]

Thanks for posting.

 

2:19 is pretty close to what we have. It's higher than the stock DCS wav file. I am not sure where the tone is generated, but I'm sure many will find it "painful" and "horrifying" and probalby killed these Viper drivers a few minutes after the video ended. ;)

 

I like the way the F16 weapons system shows the missile launch data while the RTGS/Predictor data is still present no matter what mode is selected.

 

Surprised that there wasn't a launch during the Greek vs Turks engagement. ;)

 

 

To me 2:19 sounds far lower (if you know music, I'd guess either an octave or a fifth?) than the sound in this video:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3855432&postcount=5

[Victory205]

And what source is that from? CNN or other news? News get a lot of aircraft facts wrong half the time. I wouldn't want to believe it from the source that says the runway is your tarmac.

 

The Lion Air mishaps is going to end up being pilot error, all things considered. The data isn't available on the Ethiopian yet, but the ridiculous rush to judgement and social media outrage has been appalling.

 

There are two large trim wheels next to both pilot's legs on all 737's. They move any time that the trim is running, and indicate uncommanded or runaway trim for any reasons. Giant loud wheels moving without input? You have runaway trim.

 

Either flip two switches by the copilot's knee, or grab either wheel and hold it. You can stop the freaking trim by simply grabbing the wheel.

 

I'd fly in a MAX tomorrow with a competent crew.

[Victory205]

To me 2:19 sounds far lower (if you know music, I'd guess either an octave or a fifth?) than the sound in this video:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3855432&postcount=5

 

I've mentioned numerous times that the difference we are experiencing may be a facet of our different ages and hearing abilities.

[Steve Davies]

I like the way the F16 weapons system shows the missile launch data while the RTGS/Predictor data is still present no matter what mode is selected.

 

Surprised that there wasn't a launch during the Greek vs Turks engagement. ;)

 

Yeah, I think it's called Dogfight mode.

 

The Greeks and Turks do lots of ACM together, for sure!

[Eldur]

It's common sense to not damage your pilot with harmful noise levels.

 

[...]

This is a shoot warning cue and a sound that is supposed to be possibly heard for a long time, given that it can happen even without a hot trigger (as the previous example, a GA intercept where you're sitting with this tone in your head for 30 minutes.)

 

1) Common sense works great in mankind. Just another example taken off of real life: Police and Ambulance horns. They hurt, and they do a lot. Is that necessary? I know it shall be heard, but does it have to almost pierce our eardrums actually? I guess not, but this is what they do. When having one of my first driving lessons, back in a time I still was allowed to, I once had the luck to be stuck behind one of those cars and despite the noise he spread, he couldn't go more than 30kph because apparently human beings around couldn't hear it (or they just didn't care if someone needs to be at the hospital ASAP) while it kept hurting my ears at the same time. I just said to the instructor that I'd like to hold my ears shut, he just replied that I can't since I have to drive and watch the traffic which he was right with. I know, anecdotes...

 

2) In that case, the volume knob really is your friend. Or do you keep the TACAN beeping on all the time as well?

 

The tone you hear when the missile was launched has nothing to do with the AIM9 seeker- it's a sound injected anytime the pilot pulls the trigger. You see a coincident mark on the upper left side of the HUD video for the same reason.

 

So then something's not right with that sound that should but is not being tied to the trigger in DCS? At least I'm not hearing any distinct sound related to the AIM-9s when pulling the trigger except for the launch sounds coming from outside of the cockpit

 

And regarding that "coincident mark" - I can't see anything there, but that's probably due to the awful video quality and my crappy Eyeball Mk.1bs in combination. The only marks I could ever see in that video are two short horizontal lines that never change, guessing that's the ADL. And it's rather guesstimating they could be there instead of seeing...

 

That said, it does bring up an interesting point - is what's heard on a recording the same as what someone would've heard in real life?

 

Now that's the real question here

Looks like a lot of misconception (also on my side) comes from video tapes that have AIM-9 sounds that aren't the same a pilot would hear through his headset.

[Victory205]

1) Common sense works great in mankind. Just another example taken off of real life: Police and Ambulance horns. They hurt, and they do a lot. Is that necessary? I know it shall be heard, but does it have to almost pierce our eardrums actually? I guess not, but this is what they do. When having one of my first driving lessons, back in a time I still was allowed to, I once had the luck to be stuck behind one of those cars and despite the noise he spread, he couldn't go more than 30kph because apparently human beings around couldn't hear it (or they just didn't care if someone needs to be at the hospital ASAP) while it kept hurting my ears at the same time. I just said to the instructor that I'd like to hold my ears shut, he just replied that I can't since I have to drive and watch the traffic which he was right with. I know, anecdotes...

 

2) In that case, the volume knob really is your friend. Or do you keep the TACAN beeping on all the time as well?

 

 

 

So then something's not right with that sound that should but is not being tied to the trigger in DCS? At least I'm not hearing any distinct sound related to the AIM-9s when pulling the trigger except for the launch sounds coming from outside of the cockpit

 

And regarding that "coincident mark" - I can't see anything there, but that's probably due to the awful video quality and my crappy Eyeball Mk.1bs in combination. The only marks I could ever see in that video are two short horizontal lines that never change, guessing that's the ADL. And it's rather guesstimating they could be there instead of seeing...

 

 

 

Now that's the real question here

Looks like a lot of misconception (also on my side) comes from video tapes that have AIM-9 sounds that aren't the same a pilot would hear through his headset.

 

It's only injected into the HUD video. You don't see a freaking rectangular mark when you pull the trigger on your windscreen either, do you dinkleberry? Hell, you don't see the mark at all!

 

Good grief, this is like arguing with Rainman... :)

Edited March 24, 2019 by Victory205

[FSKRipper]

This discussion is the best example why moderators should lock threads after it is obvious no longer a bug report. :doh:

 

Community: This sound is pure horror, it can't be correct.

 

SME: I'm pretty sure it is correct:

 

Community: But here are Youtube videos showing it is not correct!

 

SME: These sounds are not especially from our AIM-9 and also other systems.

 

Community: But they hurt, therefore they can't be correct!

 

to be continued without end...

 

Jesus, use the volume knob, enjoy the sim or try to enjoy your real life instead of stalking Youtube channels.

 

We already lost two RL Hornet pilots on the boards to this BS but please, continue trolls :thumbup:

[Victory205]

This discussion is the best example why moderators should lock threads after it is obvious no longer a bug report. :doh:

 

Community: This sound is pure horror, it can't be correct.

 

SME: I'm pretty sure it is correct:

 

Community: But here are Youtube videos showing it is not correct!

 

SME: These sounds are not especially from our AIM-9 and also other systems.

 

Community: But they hurt, therefore they can't be correct!

 

to be continued without end...

 

Jesus, use the volume knob, enjoy the sim or try to enjoy your real life instead of stalking Youtube channels.

 

We already lost two RL Hornet pilots on the boards to this BS but please, continue trolls :thumbup:

 

I am never for locking threads, unless for foul language or improper (graphic) images. There is too much nanny state intervention with the idea that argument and debate is somehow wrong. You end up with people who fold at the slightest obstacle, and seek to use moderation to bail them out of poor positions.

 

Make your point and be able to back it up.

[HereThen]

There are two large trim wheels next to both pilot's legs on all 737's. They move any time that the trim is running, and indicate uncommanded or runaway trim for any reasons. Giant loud wheels moving without input? You have runaway trim.

 

Not the place to discus who’s to blame but your conclusion is way to simple. Trim wheel in a 737 after takeoff is constantly moving. If it isn’t moving I would be worried.

[FSKRipper]

I am never for locking threads, unless for foul language or improper (graphic) images. There is too much nanny state intervention with the idea that argument and debate is somehow wrong. You end up with people who fold at the slightest obstacle, and seek to use moderation to bail them out of poor positions.

 

Make your point and be able to back it up.

 

Respect Victory :thumbup:

I hope your kept your strong nerves and your fighter pilot attitude because it could be a fight against windmills...

[Galf]

You don't have a clue on the 737 MAX MCAS system either. Maybe you should refrain from wasting everyone's time with baloney?

 

Yeah bringing the MCAS in as a whole was in bad taste and I apologize. But it's just to make you realize that if you isolate the issue, wrong human interface management (such as a painful noise or the lack of a physical light-up warning) can lead to undesirable circumstances. (edit: again, the full extent of the MCAS issue is yet to be discovered, so I'm not opening that again, my mistake.)

 

And this is where your reasoning should start, not at the end ("the source says this") but at the beginning ("why would the engineers do this").

[Victory205]

Not the place to discus who’s to blame but your conclusion is way to simple. Trim wheel in a 737 after takeoff is constantly moving. If it isn’t moving I would be worried.

 

Are you a type rated 737 pilot? Not just simulators? Then you trained on the 737 runaway trim.

 

It's basic flying. A Lion Air Jumpseater in the same aircraft had to tell the flying crew how to stop it on the flight prior to the mishap. Competent pilots don't have an issue with such basic aspects.

 

If an aircraft has an electrically actuated trim switch, then runaway trim is a possibility that needs to be addressed in training. The stab will overpower the elevators, it can happen in any flight regime and must be recognized and rectified, no matter what caused it.

 

 

Different in the F14 by the way due to the stabilizer design.

[Victory205]

Respect Victory :thumbup:

I hope your kept your strong nerves and your fighter pilot attitude because it could be a fight against windmills...

 

I wonder how many here know where the "tilting at windmills" quip comes from. ;)

[TLTeo]

I've mentioned numerous times that the difference we are experiencing may be a facet of our different ages and hearing abilities.

 

 

True but - and I don't mean this to as an offense, I'm just playing Devil's advocate - if your hearing isn't good enough to distinguish between those two sounds, it may not be good enough to decide which one is an appropriate lock tone and which one isn't.

[Eldur]

It's only injected into the HUD video. You don't see a freaking rectangular mark when you pull the trigger on your windscreen either

 

You just explained something I (and others probably as well) didn't know yet. So both that particular tone and the rectangular mark are just on the HUD tape, but not visible/audible for the pilot at the same time, thanks for clearing that. Except for that I can't see that rectangular mark even on that particular HUD tape you said it would be visible on. I was not talking the DCS Tomcat here at all. Just the HUD tape. I should have made that clearer when pointing this out. But I was already pointing out one of the probable reasons I don't see it there.

 

Thanks for posting.

 

2:19 is pretty close to what we have. It's higher than the stock DCS wav file. I am not sure where the tone is generated, but I'm sure many will find it "painful" and "horrifying" and probalby killed these Viper drivers a few minutes after the video ended.

 

I've mentioned numerous times that the difference we are experiencing may be a facet of our different ages and hearing abilities.

 

Pretty much comes down to that, I have to agree. In my case, hearing is different though, probably this doesn't apply to everyone. I just did the tech stuff (well, if we cann call it that) again, not saying right or wrong here, I'll leave that up to the ones who know better now. That audio contains:

 

1) the sound from that video mentioned in your quote. I just took it from 2:28-2:31 to have it without the chatter. Tone is the same as at 2:19.

2) the stock DCS high pitch tone

3) the HB high pitch tone

 

On the spectogram we can see most of the more pronounced frequencies are there in all three audio samples, however the one that really sticks out is the one at 15k on the third one while that one also is rather weak at 1.5 and 4.5kHz, but stonger right in between at 3kHz.

 

For me, personally, numbers 1 and 2 are extremely similar while number 3 is a lot different.

 

Just as a side note to everyone, watch this if you don't know it already, this pretty much shows the issue we're having here apparently to some extent. It also points out the age thing.

 

 

I can just tell what I hear there. I hear both laurel and yanny at the same time. But laurel is a bit clearer than yanny. Gets interesting especially at the 1:55 mark because that what's explained there is something I actually have difficulties with (= listening to someone and actually understanding him with noise, music or whatever in the background). I must be special...

 

Conclusion: This really must be one of the rare occasions where personal perception makes a lot of difference.

winder-lock-tones.zip

[Victory205]

True but - and I don't mean this to as an offense, I'm just playing Devil's advocate - if your hearing isn't good enough to distinguish between those two sounds, it may not be good enough to decide which one is an appropriate lock tone and which one isn't.

 

No offense taken whatsoever. I can hear a difference in the F16 tone and the sim video (tinnitus version) tone.

 

The Turkish F16 tone may wind up in the sim, but I really don't know. If it does, then we all need to shut up. The Turks are never wrong...

[Victory205]

You just explained something I (and others probably as well) didn't know yet. So both that particular tone and the rectangular mark are just on the HUD tape, but not visible/audible for the pilot at the same time, thanks for clearing that. Except for that I can't see that rectangular mark even on that particular HUD tape you said it would be visible on. I was not talking the DCS Tomcat here at all. Just the HUD tape. I should have made that clearer when pointing this out. But I was already pointing out one of the probable reasons I don't see it there.

Pretty much comes down to that, I have to agree. In my case, hearing is different though, probably this doesn't apply to everyone. I just did the tech stuff (well, if we cann call it that) again, not saying right or wrong here, I'll leave that up to the ones who know better now. That audio contains:

 

1) the sound from that video mentioned in your quote. I just took it from 2:28-2:31 to have it without the chatter. Tone is the same as at 2:19.

2) the stock DCS high pitch tone

3) the HB high pitch tone

 

On the spectogram we can see most of the more pronounced frequencies are there in all three audio samples, however the one that really sticks out is the one at 15k on the third one while that one also is rather weak at 1.5 and 4.5kHz, but stonger right in between at 3kHz.

 

For me, personally, numbers 1 and 2 are extremely similar while number 3 is a lot different.

 

Just as a side note to everyone, watch this if you don't know it already, this pretty much shows the issue we're having here apparently to some extent. It also points out the age thing.

 

 

I can just tell what I hear there. I hear both laurel and yanny at the same time. But laurel is a bit clearer than yanny. Gets interesting especially at the 1:55 mark because that what's explained there is something I actually have difficulties with (= listening to someone and actually understanding him with noise, music or whatever in the background). I must be special...

 

Conclusion: This really must be one of the rare occasions where personal perception makes a lot of difference.

 

IF you play that backwards, it says "Paul is Dead, Paul is Dead..."

[mytai01]

So, the new AIM-9 tone is actually rather painful, could it be toned down a bit?

 

Rear Left Console middle dial...;)

[TLTeo]

IF you play that backwards, it says "Paul is Dead, Paul is Dead..."

 

 

Haha :D

 

On a serious note, those plots are pretty conclusive, and the tones are not the same. Hearing is subjective but spectrographs and Fourier transforms are not.

[Victory205]

Haha :D

 

On a serious note, those plots are pretty conclusive, and the tones are not the same. Hearing is subjective but spectrographs and Fourier transforms are not.

 

Which exact tones are you referencing? Like them here. I'm finished digging through posts.

[TLTeo]

Which exact tones are you referencing? Like them here. I'm finished digging through posts.

 

 

The ones Eldur compared in his post here https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3856449&postcount=66

 

 

Sound 1: F16 lock sound

Sound 2: Stock DCS high sound

Sound 3: https://streamable.com/st3id

 

 

As Eldur mentioned in his post, the spectrographs show that sound 3 contains far more harmonics at high pitch than 1/2, which are similar to each other.

[Victory205]

Yes, they all sound different from the actual tone depicted in Topgun, The Movie ™. :)

[erniedaoage]

I have a different problem, i am hearing a lock sometimes even if i am not in the tomcat, nor in front of a computer and i still wanna pull the trigger. :(

[CheckGear]

Now that's the real question here

Looks like a lot of misconception (also on my side) comes from video tapes that have AIM-9 sounds that aren't the same a pilot would hear through his headset.

 

 

Another example - in Red Storm Entertainment's Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Covert Ops Essentials, there's a video of a flashbang grenade detonating. A flashbang, as the name implies, creates a blinding flash of light and ear-splitting noise when it goes off. Yet, in the video, the neither a blinding flash is seen nor a devastating noise heard. Why's that?

 

 

 

Or closer to home - the way your voice sounds on a recording sounds different from the way you hear it when you speak.

 

 

I am never for locking threads, unless for foul language or improper (graphic) images. There is too much nanny state intervention with the idea that argument and debate is somehow wrong. You end up with people who fold at the slightest obstacle, and seek to use moderation to bail them out of poor positions.

 

Make your point and be able to back it up.

 

 

Often times, locking threads or banning users is a power trip for moderators. I'll probably get in trouble for saying that, but it's true.

 

 

And I agree - make an argument and back it up. I think everybody, particularly media folks and politicians, need to learn that.

[Fri13]

The sidewinder robe in F-14 ain't problem, but it is unique.

 

The problem is that when you start mission with chosen seat, you jump briefly to some random aircraft just outside of them, and their full engine sound.

 

Then when you die, you jump to outside of your aircraft and it's engines and explosion. At least now crashing does quickly move camera further, but that still is a way to loud sound.

 

In F-14 I can adjust sidewinder tone volume, in DCS settings I can't adjust the camera distance in those above situations.

 

And if you are going to lock someone with sidewinder, be ready to launch it, as you likely already are mean to do it, instead just get a radar lock and thrive them away. If you are not ready to launch, don't lock.....