FM after latest patch

[Hunter Joker]

So, I am not the only one to find the F-14 less manoeuvrable with the last update ? It feels way more unstable in dogfight... Usually I'm able to maintain MiG-29/Flankers in respect and just eat F-5, but now, things are not the same...

 

 

I'm not saying that this behaviour is wrong, but according to fat creason, ''(...)nothing else is anticipated that will affect raw performance numbers.''

There I see a big change in the behaviour of the F-14..

 

 

 

Can the devs clarify this please ? Really waiting for fat creason's update.

 

 

 

Thanks.Have a good day and good luck with the dev of the Tomcat.

Same for me, I left a plane on tuesday only to found another after the patch...

 

Inviato dal mio BLA-L09 utilizzando Tapatalk

[FWind]

So, I am not the only one to find the F-14 less manoeuvrable with the last update ? It feels way more unstable in dogfight... Usually I'm able to maintain MiG-29/Flankers in respect and just eat F-5, but now, things are not the same...

 

 

I'm not saying that this behaviour is wrong, but according to fat creason, ''(...)nothing else is anticipated that will affect raw performance numbers.''

There I see a big change in the behaviour of the F-14..

 

 

 

Can the devs clarify this please ? Really waiting for fat creason's update.

 

 

 

Thanks.Have a good day and good luck with the dev of the Tomcat.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3879316&postcount=41

[Jowen G. Bruère-Dawson]

FWind : you didn't read my post.

 

 

 

I quoted some of fat creason post, so I have seen it too.

 

 

 

But it didn't really answered my question.. Unless I'm not understanding what he said, which is very likely, feel free to add some precision of how you understand his post, maybe I'm completely off.

 

 

 

But as I understood it : they are trying to use an automated testing device for the FM and in addition of that, they use SME feedback for some minor tweaks... and ''nothing else is anticipated that will affect raw performance numbers''...

 

 

 

But my experience (which is the same for some other people here it seems), is that the performance of the Tomcat really decreased in some area. Not just a ''small'' adjustment.

 

 

 

I can be wrong though, but, the feeling I got today was really ''disturbing''. That's why I asked other people feedback and a dev' clarification if possible.

 

 

 

Anyway, as I said, can't wait for fat creason's update!

[lunaticfringe]

I plan on making a post detailing these updates once they’re complete

 

Comes before the point where there's

 

nothing else anticipated thar will affect raw performance numbers.

 

That is to say, fat is en media res. He'll provide the update as to what has changed and why, once everything is locked in. And then, from that point, there is no expectation to see major changes.

 

It's not at the latter point yet.

[Airhunter]

My whole point is, why "nerf" the F-14 even more? It has power as the main thing going for it. The AIM54's are unreliable and the radar can barely sustain a lock in most cases. It's more of an artistic choice as with a lot of things, uch as the sounds. I'd rather have the devs work an actual bugs and implementing new features + fixing some visual stuff that is still wrong that tune a flight model, which has no issues at all right now.

[lunaticfringe]

In what realm of flight simulation is bringing the FM even more in line with the performance charts "nerfing"?

 

Amazing.

 

It's been stated that temporary alterations occur as they chase down a higher level of fidelity at different ends of the model, yet will be adjusted to make the entire FM correct when it's done. This is a temporary situation, it's been confirmed as such, and you're complaining about nerfs like its permanent- and worse, a function of balance.

 

fat does the FM stuff. Grover the EW systems. Cobra the visuals. Everybody has things to do, but the process of making one even better, even when it temporarily causes a minor issue, causes such consternation. Absolutely amazing.

 

If nerfing is your concern, I'm not sure this is the right environment for you.

[captain_dalan]

My whole point is, why "nerf" the F-14 even more?

 

Ahem.....what he says:

 

In what realm of flight simulation is bringing the FM even more in line with the performance charts "nerfing"?

 

 

I have to repeat the question, how is fine-tuning the FM to closer match the real performance nerfing? Do we want a simulation as close to the real thing or not?

[IronMike]

Hi guys,

 

first of all thank you for all your input. Impression, felt impression, right or wrong - we appreciate it in any case. And we listen very closely. However, I would like to mention a couple of things:

 

1. We do not do nerfing. At all. We want it to be as accurate as possible and this means that we will continue to tweak, as long as necessary. If we can get it just a fraction of an inch closer to reality we will attempt that.

 

2. Tweaking an FM is a very complex undertaking. Everything is connected. So one small change can lead to a chain of changes, wanted and unwanted, and in general they need time to address.

 

3. As noted before by both Cobra and FatCreason, we are currently tweaking the performance to bring it closer to reality. Hence point 2 comes into play, some things can be a bit off atm, we are aware and we are doing everything we can to address it quickly.

 

4. The FM of the Tomcat is very specific due to several aspects of the aircraft, such as wingsweep, lifting body, spoilers, elevons, and much more. Hence fully understanding the handling of the aircraft is - even for experienced real life pilots - no small task. Please give it a chance to understand it properly, before judging it. I have flown it now for over 2 years, and I can tell you, once you start "remotely getting her", things start falling into place and she becomes a pure joy to fly.

 

5. Because of the current tweaks, please be patient with us, as point 4 can be somewhat difficult atm, because of these tweaks and certain flaws that have been introduced with these. Again, the team is working hard to remedy the issues as we speak, and we hope to have it back in place in no time.

 

Thank you very much for your patience and understanding. A good general overview can be found in this video by Jabbers, regarding the flight characteristics of the Tomcat.

 

 

Best regards from the Heatblur Team

Edited April 13, 2019 by IronMike

[Jowen G. Bruère-Dawson]

Thanks for this clarification Ironmike !

Take your time and keep going with the great job that you are doing !

[Sonoda Umi]

Hi guys,

 

first of all thank you for all your input. Impression, felt impression, right or wrong - we appreciate it in any case. And we listen very closely. However, I would like to mention a couple of things:

 

1. We do not do nerfing. At all. We want it to be as accurate as possible and this means that we will continue to tweak, as long as necessary. If we can get it just a fraction of an inch closer to reality we will attempt that.

 

2. Tweaking an FM is a very complex undertaking. Everything is connected. So one small change can lead to a chain of changes, wanted and unwanted, and in general they need time to address.

 

3. As noted before by both Cobra and FatCreason, we are currently tweaking the performance to bring it closer to reality. Hence point 2 comes into play, some things can be a bit off atm, we are aware and we are doing everything we can to address it quickly.

 

4. The FM of the Tomcat is very specific due to several aspects of the aircraft, such as wingsweep, lifting body, spoilers, elevons, and much more. Hence fully understanding the handling of the aircraft is - even for experienced real life pilots - no small task. Please give it a chance to understand it properly, before judging it. I have flown it now for over 2 years, and I can tell you, once you start "remotely getting her", things start falling into place and she becomes a pure joy to fly.

 

5. Because of the current tweaks, please be patient with us, as point 4 can be somewhat difficult atm, because of these tweaks and certain flaws that have been introduced with these. Again, the team is working hard to remedy the issues as we speak, and we hope to have it back in place in no time.

 

Thank you very much for your patience and understanding. A good general overview can be found in this video by Jabbers, regarding the flight characteristics of the Tomcat.

 

 

Best regards from the Heatblur Team

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

It seems that there are ton of work to tweak FM, and I will wait for a more accurate version.

[Scotch75]

Well said Ironmike.

 

Cheers!

[The Falcon]

Excuse my ignorance but what does nerfing mean?

[StandingCow]

Anyone who uses the words buff or nerf in a flight simulation should be ashamed. There is no "balance" in DCS, everything is as close to the real thing as it can be.

[DUSTY]

Excuse my ignorance but what does nerfing mean?

 

 

It's slang for making something less lethal/potent/effective/good etc

[IronMike]

Excuse my ignorance but what does nerfing mean?

 

 

 

 

It is a term derived from the trademark NERF for toy guns firing missiles of soft foam, which are ineffective as actual weapons (1969).

 

This was adopted by the gaming community as "nerfing" whenever developers decide to make something weaker or "worse" in order to achieve more "balance" in a game, often to the dismay of players on the side whose weapons for example have been nerfed (and thus in their eyes have been rendered "ineffective" like foam darts). Thus nerfing means downgrading abilities of certain aspects of a game.

 

As balance can be highly subjective, nerfs usually spark hefty discussions with one side appreciating and the other side not appreciating the nerf.

 

In simulators this is generally frowned upon, as decisions should not be based on subjective opinions or "balance", but factual data to replicate the simulated real life counterpart as truthfully as possible.

[Alerax]

Interestingly, I just did some guns only dogfighting and it "felt" the F14 performs better with the fuel tanks on... No hard evidence, but anyone tested this?

 

-Alerax

[Hummingbird]

Hi guys,

 

first of all thank you for all your input. Impression, felt impression, right or wrong - we appreciate it in any case. And we listen very closely. However, I would like to mention a couple of things:

 

1. We do not do nerfing. At all. We want it to be as accurate as possible and this means that we will continue to tweak, as long as necessary. If we can get it just a fraction of an inch closer to reality we will attempt that.

 

2. Tweaking an FM is a very complex undertaking. Everything is connected. So one small change can lead to a chain of changes, wanted and unwanted, and in general they need time to address.

 

3. As noted before by both Cobra and FatCreason, we are currently tweaking the performance to bring it closer to reality. Hence point 2 comes into play, some things can be a bit off atm, we are aware and we are doing everything we can to address it quickly.

 

4. The FM of the Tomcat is very specific due to several aspects of the aircraft, such as wingsweep, lifting body, spoilers, elevons, and much more. Hence fully understanding the handling of the aircraft is - even for experienced real life pilots - no small task. Please give it a chance to understand it properly, before judging it. I have flown it now for over 2 years, and I can tell you, once you start "remotely getting her", things start falling into place and she becomes a pure joy to fly.

 

5. Because of the current tweaks, please be patient with us, as point 4 can be somewhat difficult atm, because of these tweaks and certain flaws that have been introduced with these. Again, the team is working hard to remedy the issues as we speak, and we hope to have it back in place in no time.

 

Thank you very much for your patience and understanding. A good general overview can be found in this video by Jabbers, regarding the flight characteristics of the Tomcat.

 

 

Best regards from the Heatblur Team

 

:thumbup::thumbup:

[Ala12Rv-watermanpc]

Hi guys,

 

first of all thank you for all your input. Impression, felt impression, right or wrong - we appreciate it in any case. And we listen very closely. However, I would like to mention a couple of things:

 

1. We do not do nerfing. At all. We want it to be as accurate as possible and this means that we will continue to tweak, as long as necessary. If we can get it just a fraction of an inch closer to reality we will attempt that.

 

2. Tweaking an FM is a very complex undertaking. Everything is connected. So one small change can lead to a chain of changes, wanted and unwanted, and in general they need time to address.

 

3. As noted before by both Cobra and FatCreason, we are currently tweaking the performance to bring it closer to reality. Hence point 2 comes into play, some things can be a bit off atm, we are aware and we are doing everything we can to address it quickly.

 

4. The FM of the Tomcat is very specific due to several aspects of the aircraft, such as wingsweep, lifting body, spoilers, elevons, and much more. Hence fully understanding the handling of the aircraft is - even for experienced real life pilots - no small task. Please give it a chance to understand it properly, before judging it. I have flown it now for over 2 years, and I can tell you, once you start "remotely getting her", things start falling into place and she becomes a pure joy to fly.

 

5. Because of the current tweaks, please be patient with us, as point 4 can be somewhat difficult atm, because of these tweaks and certain flaws that have been introduced with these. Again, the team is working hard to remedy the issues as we speak, and we hope to have it back in place in no time.

 

Thank you very much for your patience and understanding. A good general overview can be found in this video by Jabbers, regarding the flight characteristics of the Tomcat.

 

 

Best regards from the Heatblur Team

 

WOW!, thats what make you (heatblur) the best of the best in DCS...AMAZING love in your work and the correct amount of willing to improve things...thanks guys, you are the ones!!:)

[javelina1]

WOW!, thats what make you (heatblur) the best of the best in DCS...AMAZING love in your work and the correct amount of willing to improve things...thanks guys, you are the ones!!:)

Indeed! Stellar outfit!

[JefCostello]

Heatblur I'm very confident that you will polish this beauty and beast in every aspect. This is already a very challenging machine, unique in DCS!:joystick::thumbup:

 

Best regards

 

Jef

[Eldur]

Excuse my ignorance but what does nerfing mean?

 

It's slang for making something less lethal/potent/effective/good etc

 

In order to balance things out, to be specific.

 

Anyone who uses the words buff or nerf in a flight simulation should be ashamed. There is no "balance" in DCS, everything is as close to the real thing as it can be.

 

This. I don't even like that MMO style talk some people do about classic CRPGs... I mean, talking about DD, tanks, bosses, trash etc when there simply is none of that distinctively, really. It just isn't appropriate.

 

As for the Tomcat, HB will get there. It's like the INS aligning. It takes a long time with the wander angle going up and down, but the longer it takes, the better the quality gets. And as some have said already, the F-14 is pretty close already to begin with, there are just some parts which aren't as much, but those aren't the most important ones, maybe except for when you want to max out your range.

[captain_dalan]

Interestingly, I just did some guns only dogfighting and it "felt" the F14 performs better with the fuel tanks on... No hard evidence, but anyone tested this?

 

-Alerax

 

I did roughly 4 hours of testing and evaluation last night, from 0 to 20000ft and to me at least, the core of the envelope seams pretty solid. I found her off in the very low speed and very high speed parts, but those didn't come into play until i was at 20kft. I guess because of the air speed-mach relation it might effect dogfighting when higher up, but i proceeded to do some ACM against that AI MiG-29 set to excellent (as it was used as a reference) and had no issues nailing it down two times in a row, even after losing sight of it. No tricks on my part either, a "fair" turning fight. I never goaded him into scissors, went to snap shot, or rolled out of plane. So....dunno, if she is off, it doesn't seam like she's off by much. Not where it counts. Bellow 250 is a different story.

[Nealius]

Anyone who uses the words buff or nerf in a flight simulation should be ashamed. There is no "balance" in DCS, everything is as close to the real thing as it can be.

 

Except when something has been nerfed. *cough*A-10 engines*cough*.

[Hummingbird]

I did roughly 4 hours of testing and evaluation last night, from 0 to 20000ft and to me at least, the core of the envelope seams pretty solid. I found her off in the very low speed and very high speed parts, but those didn't come into play until i was at 20kft. I guess because of the air speed-mach relation it might effect dogfighting when higher up, but i proceeded to do some ACM against that AI MiG-29 set to excellent (as it was used as a reference) and had no issues nailing it down two times in a row, even after losing sight of it. No tricks on my part either, a "fair" turning fight. I never goaded him into scissors, went to snap shot, or rolled out of plane. So....dunno, if she is off, it doesn't seam like she's off by much. Not where it counts. Bellow 250 is a different story.

 

Have run a lot more tests myself since last and I agree that overall it's looking very great, but it also was before the patch. I agree that now it's at the very low and high end she is underperforming a bit, but in the mid range she seems pretty accurate, was able to hold 6.4 G's @ 0.6 M at ASL, which is right on the money according to the charts you showed me via PM. (This is all with the 4x AIM-9 + 4x AIM-7 @ 55,600 lbs load out mind you)

 

That said I do feel she's maybe abit too draggy completely clean, i.e. with no missiles or pylons.

 

All in all though I have to say it's by far the best FM in DCS atm.

[StandingCow]

Except when something has been nerfed. *cough*A-10 engines*cough*.

 

 

I get a feeling that is to do with having to tweak some FMs so they aren't exact... for security reasons. But yea, you aren't wrong there.