How can I defend myself

[jfri]

In the A10C there are counter measures that kick in automatically. But what should I do in the Viggen when AA missiles comes towards me ? In redflag I have been shoot down twice now.

[Airhunter]

SReX-p7u9lk

[viper2097]

Best is to avoid getting detected. If not, hit AB Zone 3 and run.

[QuiGon]

In the A10C there are counter measures that kick in automatically. But what should I do in the Viggen when AA missiles comes towards me ? In redflag I have been shoot down twice now.

The Viggen has countermeasures too and they can also be set to automatic mode.

[Shimonu]

The Viggen has countermeasures too and they can also be set to automatic mode.

 

It should be mentioned that they are added as a pod

[TOViper]

Best is to avoid getting detected. If not, hit AB Zone 3 and run.

 

 

this :thumbup:

using the jammer pod U22/A will help when fighting against ships

[Harlikwin]

Best is to avoid getting detected. If not, hit AB Zone 3 and run.

 

Actually this is very good advice. I often fly online and I can just smoke other fighters on the deck, I seldom carry countermeasures because of this. Same for many SAMS, you just have to get low 20-30m.

[Harlikwin]

this :thumbup:

using the jammer pod U22/A will help when fighting against ships

 

I've read that the pod doesn't really work? Were those old videos/tests?

[TLTeo]

It works but in a very simplified way (like all jamming in DCS really). Basically if you're painted by a radar head-on (I think within +-30 degrees off your nose), the detection and lock on range is decreased.

 

 

I'm not sure why you would want to carry it against ships though. It shares the same weapon station as the anti ship missiles, and I'd rather fire an RB04 or RB15 while not carrying jamming/ecm pods than have to close in to fire an RB05/75.

[TOViper]

I've read that the pod doesn't really work? Were those old videos/tests?

 

they work, trust me

 

I did dozens of tests flying against the Moskva ship.

If using it, you may close up to 30 km until they fire upon you.

If not using it, the start firing somewhere around 40 km.

 

 

But this strongly depends on your altitude.

I suggest flying not higher than 20 m above sea.

 

 

If I find my paper with all the values, which I created approx half a year ago, I will post it here. I made one video in the "early" stages of these tests, you may find it on my channel listed below.

[QuiGon]

I'm not sure why you would want to carry it against ships though. It shares the same weapon station as the anti ship missiles, and I'd rather fire an RB04 or RB15 while not carrying jamming/ecm pods than have to close in to fire an RB05/75.

Because there are some ships (Moskva) that have longer range then your RB-04s, so if you want to attack it with RB-04s and don't die you pretty much have to use the jammer. Sure, the RB-15 has longer range, but in a Cold War scenario they are not available.

[theOden]

I'm with TLTeo, against long-range naval sam I just fly 10m over surface, takes me close enough to pop-up at 35 km or so and then scream away both Rb 04's followed by an aggressive turn/dive back to 10m running home like never before.

 

 

Tried the same at 500m and got slapped in the face in no time so to my surprise radar horizon seems to be a thing in DCS.

 

 

But in a none-solo-style approach Viggen is supposed to be flown in 4-ship giving the QuiGon scenario 3 anti-ship viggens and 1 ECM-escort with U22 and a dispenser pod (but I wound't fly one Rb 04 and one jammer no).

[TOViper]

I'm with TLTeo, against long-range naval sam I just fly 10m over surface, takes me close enough to pop-up at 35 km or so and then scream away both Rb 04's followed by an aggressive turn/dive back to 10m running home like never before.

 

 

This works too, indeed. I did this several times with success.

 

Some aspects for beginners are here:

 

.) You wouldn't do that in RL since the "safety" margin would be too low

.) Blacking out in the evasive turn while flying M1.2 kills you 100%

.) Blacking out is easily possible due to the high lift coefficients. If you choose low coefficients, you turn in a wide arc, which lowers the distance to the ships and the - already approaching SA missiles have lower distance to fly.

.) This method is based on flying 10m above water; if flying with AP engaged all the time (starting from ~M0.8), you have to "trust" your AP pitching the aircraft correctly (and not into the water when going through M0.9 to M1.1 due to the pitch down moment)

.) Flying in 10m above water will test pilot skills hardly when in formation with others

.) If approaching a group of ships, you might not calculate all distances exactly to avoid the "absolute fatality zone" of each of the ships.

 

 

So, summing up, and following my experience with this, using the version 2.5.4:

 

The U22/A in this simulation allows firing at ~30km, with less danger of loosing the Rb04 shot, but with less ammunition and high imbalance (which you might counteract a little with playing around with Rb24's)

[TLTeo]

Because there are some ships (Moskva) that have longer range then your RB-04s, so if you want to attack it with RB-04s and don't die you pretty much have to use the jammer. Sure, the RB-15 has longer range, but in a Cold War scenario they are not available.

 

 

But you can't carry both the RB04 and the jammer. You have to choose, unless you carry one missile AND the pod? Does the onboard computer even let you do that?

 

Does the pod also work on nearby aircraft? In that case I guess you could fly in with a two ship, one carrying the missiles and the other the jammer...

 

 

edit:

just fly 10m over surface, takes me close enough to pop-up at 35 km or so and then scream away both Rb 04's followed by an aggressive turn/dive back to 10m running home like never before.

 

This is also what I do. They can fire on me from 40km all they want, but if I turn back at that distance and go full AB the missiles never come close to hitting.

Edited May 9, 2019 by TLTeo

[TOViper]

But you can't carry both the RB04 and the jammer. You have to choose, unless you carry one missile AND the pod? Does the onboard computer even let you do that?

 

You can, one jammer, one Rb-04.

 

Does the pod also work on nearby aircraft? In that case I guess you could fly in with a two ship, one carrying the missiles and the other the jammer...

 

According to my info no, since this is a DCS engine limitation. But I am not 100% sure about it. This should be tested. This evening? We two?

 

This is also what I do. They can fire on me from 40km all they want, but if I turn back at that distance and go full AB the missiles never come close to hitting.

 

Seems like we can put this as "procedure" :P to the holy (F)M.

[Fri13]

This works too, indeed. I did this several times with success.

 

Some aspects for beginners are here:

 

.) You wouldn't do that in RL since the "safety" margin would be too low

.) Blacking out in the evasive turn while flying M1.2 kills you 100%

.) Blacking out is easily possible due to the high lift coefficients. If you choose low coefficients, you turn in a wide arc, which lowers the distance to the ships and the - already approaching SA missiles have lower distance to fly.

.) This method is based on flying 10m above water; if flying with AP engaged all the time (starting from ~M0.8), you have to "trust" your AP pitching the aircraft correctly (and not into the water when going through M0.9 to M1.1 due to the pitch down moment)

.) Flying in 10m above water will test pilot skills hardly when in formation with others

.) If approaching a group of ships, you might not calculate all distances exactly to avoid the "absolute fatality zone" of each of the ships.

[\quote]

 

IRL the Viggen pilots are known to be crazy, living at the 10m altitude at near sound barrier. Above sea or ground. But past Mach 1 before turn and burn? No...

 

‘The first to go up in the Viggen was our boss, Hilton Moses. I

remember going out with him to the aeroplane and seeing him laugh-

ing and smiling, and then seeing him getting out and coming back to

the crewroom looking like he’d just been put through some kind of

crazy combination between a fairground ride and a washing machine.

Then I went flying in the afternoon, and it changed my life.

‘They would fly around at Mach 0.95, 650kt give or take a bit, and

they trained at 10m. We flew through firebreaks in trees, we flew all

over northern Sweden at 30ft, and we never went below 600kt. All of

this, I should add, was done under about a 150 to 200ft overcast with

no breaks. In the RAF, anybody who wanted to get old would not have

flown in that weather. After about 40 minutes, we pulled up into cloud,

and the pilot then flew a 4-degree hands-off approach with his hands on

his head into a remote airstrip, landed, reversed into a parking bay, did

an engine-running refuel without any communication with the people

on the ground except hand signals, taxied out and took off in the direc-

tion that we’d landed in. Wind

direction just wasn’t factored.

Then we did some approaches

onto roadways, flying at 15 or

20ft to clear the cars and warn

them that there were going

to be some aeroplane move-

ments before doing practice

approaches. And the aerobatics

beggared belief.

‘The next day, it was time

to take the Swedish pilots flying

in the Jaguar. I was at a bit of a

loss as to how I was going to

explain to this guy that we

flew at 420kt when they flew

at 620kt. So I decided that the

way ahead was to leave the

part-throttle reheat in, accel-

erate to 620kt and then give

him the aeroplane. That’s what

I did — I took off, and gave

him control at 620kt and about

150ft. He pushed the nose

down, took the Jaguar down to

30ft and proceeded to fly it at

about 30 to 40ft and 600kt-plus quite happily. It knocked all the myths

about who’s got the best aeroplanes, who’s got the best-trained pilots

and so on. The Swedish Air Force had aeroplanes that were light years

ahead of anything the RAF had, or was going to get, or has got now,

and their pilots were in a totally different league to us. This was not

just an individual — I flew with three of them, and all three were like

that. Each of them was able to fly the Jaguar faster and lower from the

back seat than I could from the front seat

 

 

http://www.collectair.co.uk/pdf/interview-hr.pdf

[QuiGon]

According to my info no, since this is a DCS engine limitation. But I am not 100% sure about it.

This is correct. Jamming in DCS only protects the jamming aircraft itself. It has no defensive effect on other aircraft due to DCS engine limitations.

[TLTeo]

Seems like we can put this as "procedure" :P to the holy (F)M.

 

 

I mean it makes sense, if a ship and an aircraft both have similar max ranges on their weapons and launch at that distance, the plane can turn around and get the hell out (especially a now clean Viggen at sea level), a ship can't.

 

 

This is correct. Jamming in DCS only protects the jamming aircraft itself. It has no defensive effect on other aircraft due to DCS engine limitations.

 

 

 

Too bad :(

[TOViper]

http://www.collectair.co.uk/pdf/interview-hr.pdf

 

 

OT:

 

Thanks for sharing this little nice text, it confirms what I was thinking when watching some videos on youtube. :thumbup: I am only guessing now, but for sure they lost a few people in this "crazy" period of 1960 to 2000. The safety margin is tiny like hell.

[Harlikwin]

they work, trust me

 

I did dozens of tests flying against the Moskva ship.

If using it, you may close up to 30 km until they fire upon you.

If not using it, the start firing somewhere around 40 km.

 

 

But this strongly depends on your altitude.

I suggest flying not higher than 20 m above sea.

 

 

If I find my paper with all the values, which I created approx half a year ago, I will post it here. I made one video in the "early" stages of these tests, you may find it on my channel listed below.

 

 

Cool. I'll try it out, a 25% reduction in firing range is useful. Does that work against ground based sams the same way or is there more variance?

 

I do a fair amount of SAM site hunting with BK-90's and I generally come in ~10-20m off the deck at mach .9 pop up to 500 at 10km, dump the BK-90's and scream back to low alt. Its a tossup if the sam gets me or not on egress if I miss with the BK-90's which happens all too often.

[jfri]

SReX-p7u9lk

 

 

What is this armament window that you bring up in the beginning? I have no idea how to display it or that it existed.

[probad]

open communications menu -> ground crew -> rearm and refuel

 

you can set up a dedicated bind to bring it up as well

[Katj]

I'm with TLTeo, against long-range naval sam I just fly 10m over surface, takes me close enough to pop-up at 35 km or so and then scream away both Rb 04's followed by an aggressive turn/dive back to 10m running home like never before.

 

 

Tried the same at 500m and got slapped in the face in no time so to my surprise radar horizon seems to be a thing in DCS.

 

 

But in a none-solo-style approach Viggen is supposed to be flown in 4-ship giving the QuiGon scenario 3 anti-ship viggens and 1 ECM-escort with U22 and a dispenser pod (but I wound't fly one Rb 04 and one jammer no).

I did some testing last night against the Moskva and admiral Kuznetsov, and it seems to me that for as long as you stay below 10ish metres your biggest worry is CIWS. And by this I mean that you are completely immune against missiles. I was unable to provoke a missile launch when flying at this altitude. Already launched missiles would self destruct when I made the descent to 5m. I don't know how realistic this is, or what IR SAMs will do.

 

5m or so is (in dcs) sufficient altitude to launch rb-05 and rb-75, though the latter is usually shot down by SAM due to the high trajectory.

 

The rb-05 is surprisingly easy to guide into the waterline of a ship when flying on the deck. This basically makes it a torpedo. However scoring two direct hits on the Moskva did only 0 and then 7 % damage.

 

Beaming with countermeasures is also very effective, albeit a bit riskier. Not so effective against multiple ships either.

 

Running away is always an alternative. A clean viggen is not easily caught by a SAM if it has a decent head start.

 

I ended last night experimenting with toss bombing, but I couldn't get it to work properly. The bombs would always fall long. If you can get it to work that might be an alternative in the anti-shipping role, in a "We're out of guided munitions scenario".

[TOViper]

I did some testing last night against the Moskva and admiral Kuznetsov, and it seems to me that for as long as you stay below 10ish metres your biggest worry is CIWS. And by this I mean that you are completely immune against missiles. I was unable to provoke a missile launch when flying at this altitude. Already launched missiles would self destruct when I made the descent to 5m. I don't know how realistic this is, or what IR SAMs will do.

 

5m or so is (in dcs) sufficient altitude to launch rb-05 and rb-75, though the latter is usually shot down by SAM due to the high trajectory.

 

The rb-05 is surprisingly easy to guide into the waterline of a ship when flying on the deck. This basically makes it a torpedo. However scoring two direct hits on the Moskva did only 0 and then 7 % damage.

 

Beaming with countermeasures is also very effective, albeit a bit riskier. Not so effective against multiple ships either.

 

Running away is always an alternative. A clean viggen is not easily caught by a SAM if it has a decent head start.

 

I ended last night experimenting with toss bombing, but I couldn't get it to work properly. The bombs would always fall long. If you can get it to work that might be an alternative in the anti-shipping role, in a "We're out of guided munitions scenario".

 

 

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

Currently, with 2 shots of Rb-04 shot in a time window of less than 5 seconds I am usually able to sink the Moskva.