There is no update to Hornet

[bigalsunit]

There has been a lot of press and attention recently surrounding the latest EA modules while the Hornet has experienceed an unusual lack of updates or content. Its not that difficult to understand why folks are beginning to question where the F-18 currently sits on the priority list. I don’t think we should dismiss this as impatience or entitlement. It is quickly becoming a very valid concern.

 

Just a few questions:

 

How many individuals are left to focus on bringing the Hornet to completion?

 

Will the Hornet be feature complete before the Viper is released into EA or is it planned to have the F-18 EA period overlap into the Viper’s EA development?

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

There is no update to Hornet

 

Paying full price for an incomplete product with your eyes open to the fact that it's early access is fine except that no deadline to reasonably complete the product was specified, so buyers beware.

 

I agree this early access syndrome or business model is beginning to feel a bit questionable for some. Feels like crowd funding. Alas, it's the buyer's choice to join in or not. But again, a specified deadline even if moved (bug fixes expected but at least all systems are in) would make it feel less open ended with regard to product completion.

 

Yes the F-16 development may not hinder the F-18's progress because it's a different team. But some are wondering if they could have used that manpower to work on completing the F-18 instead of embarking on yet another early access product. Hopefully, the F-16 post launch will be completely more quickly after those first time being made systems are completed in the F-18.

Edited June 5, 2019 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[Eagle7907]

Hornet development has slowed down because the stuff left to develop is very complex and takes more time and testing. (person who I replied to deleted their comment, but I'll leave this here anyways :) )

 

 

 

Hey Norm,

 

Just to be clear, the delay for today (6/5) has nothing to do with 3rd party modules, right? That hurdle has been jumped?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[NineLine]

Hey Norm,

 

Just to be clear, the delay for today (6/5) has nothing to do with 3rd party modules, right? That hurdle has been jumped?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

As far as I am aware, yes, all 3rd Parties are good to go.

[Eagle7907]

There is no update to Hornet

 

As far as I am aware, yes, all 3rd Parties are good to go.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[David OC]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that you can rollback, if unhappy to any DCS version you like. (While new things settle down...)

Until your happy with the current build that is, unless playing on a specific MP server. You can also have as many builds on your pc as you like too.

 

GUIDE: Using DCS Updater to Update, Revert

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=114030

 

DCS Updater GUI Utility

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=160053

[Harlikwin]

5 years to release early access Hornet, another 5 years to add new features and fix them. What next? Preorder for finish?

 

 

Um put the crack pipe down my man. The horent has literally been in EA for 1 year and has a ton of features added. It was probably announced 6 months before release like the viper has been as well. And what do you care how long it was in development before it was released.

Edited June 5, 2019 by Harlikwin

[strikerdg]

Guys,

I completely don't understand this crying.

You do not like? Don't pay before releasing finished product or pay and be patient.

Simple :)

 

BTW: This is my first post on this forum

I greet everyone,

Jabara

 

For me at least, the slight “crying” is purely to let folks know that I do not intend to purchase more items until I feel satisfied with the state of the stuff I bought over a year ago. I 100% understood that EA is a buyer beware situation. However, I also realize that my biggest influence here is how I spend my money. I understand that one person doesn’t have much of an impact but out of principal and respect for this company I don’t want them to be confused by any lack of apparent interest in these new modules even from die hard fans as I would consider myself. This is an opportunity for people’s voices to be heard and should not be dismissed too quickly. Some people have valid, rational, and respectful criticisms and still wish for this game’s great success!

[canadianbaken]

I wish the people who defend ED so vigorously would understand that paying customers have the right to complain about a product that's far from complete, and they see other projects being pushed towards early access too.

 

It is their right to complain, not everyone purchased the module in early access, and not everyone uses OB, but they share a disappointment to see several delays on a module already purchased whilst ED pushes early access sales on their newer modules.

 

I too would rather see a full team working to complete the F18 before moving onto the F16.. "How do you eat an elephant? "

 

Slowly, and a little bit at a time, ED are moving from elephant to elephant, as are their paying customers, and spudknocker also raised this "early access syndrome" and received mixed reactions to it.

 

Bottom line, defend ED if you must, but the paying customer has a right to complain about a product they feel is not what's being advertised, or they feel the resources have been redirected to that other elephant.

 

 

Umm... it’s still in early access. And they have already stated that the team working on the Viper has nothing to do with the Hornet. I understand it might be your right to complain about a complete project but you haven’t purchased a release version of the Hornet, because one does not exist yet. Not trying to sound like an ass here but if people don’t want a bugged product they should wait until the full version is complete. Or purchase EA and help build a better product with constructive and informative bug reports.

[David OC]

For me at least, the slight “crying” is purely to let folks know that I do not intend to purchase more items until I feel satisfied with the state of the stuff I bought over a year ago. I 100% understood that EA is a buyer beware situation. However, I also realize that my biggest influence here is how I spend my money. I understand that one person doesn’t have much of an impact but out of principal and respect for this company I don’t want them to be confused by any lack of apparent interest in these new modules even from die hard fans as I would consider myself. This is an opportunity for people’s voices to be heard and should not be dismissed too quickly. Some people have valid, rational, and respectful criticisms and still wish for this game’s great success!

 

 

What actually happens

 

 

Quote

 

"It’s important to note that more creative freedom begets more trial and error to reach the solution — which is fine. Some people think that you can just know the perfect solution ex-ante (i.e. in advance) before writing a single line of code. I contend instead that, for creative activities, the process of discovering a solution to a given problem (not only software) is a process of tinkering: you can’t have perfect knowledge in advance, but instead you learn by doing, iteratively trying new things and keeping what works, and by refining your solution.

 

https://hackernoon.com/you-have-to-choose-between-software-delivered-on-time-and-good-software-44f4af1249b1

 

.

[Wizard_03]

Is this where we come to panic??

[canadianbaken]

Is this where we come to panic??

 

Apparently

[key_stroked]

The delay in Hornet Features has 0.0 to do with the Viper development.

 

But it does have something to do with the Fw-190 development?

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3934656&postcount=158

[Yurgon]

Everybody take a step back, gramps is gonna tell an old war story now.

 

Back when the DCS A-10C was about to get released, rumors were running wiiiiiiild as to why it took so long til release. Some people made it sound like ED were taking our money to flee to some remote island, where they'd all enjoy cool drinks and hot chicks for the rest of their natural lives, not giving a crap about our life's savings.

 

Well. A day or two later DCS A-10C was released and that's the last I ever heard about those complaints.

 

End of old war story.

______

 

Wags has been completely and fully forthcoming about new Hornet features taking longer now, because they require more work. He said that weeks ago. And now people complain about a lack of updates and start accusing ED of $whatever?

 

Guys, seriously. Do not pre-purchase if you're not okay with this type of sales model. No one forced you to buy the Hornet or the Viper or any other module. It was your choice to do so, and the conditions have been communicated very clearly.

 

I certainly don't agree with every choice ED makes, and I certainly have many complaints. But complaining that there's no Hornet update in a couple of weeks?

That's like the frigging definition of Early Access, and the module is still in Early Access, for crying out loud.

 

So yeah, maybe ED should try to communicate more clearly what "Early Access" means, but seriously, as long as people make up whatever they want and accuse ED of not properly supporting an "out of Early Access" module that is still in Early Access, what good would it do? All the info is there, it's not hidden, and once again it is your choice to purchase, or to hold off, or not to purchase.

 

(Same for the 3rd parties, where similar complaints and misconceptions about "Early Access" and "Released" keep coming up.)

______

 

For legitimate bugs and problems, there are appropriate sub-forums, but there have never been any guarantees or promises as to how long it takes to fix those bugs, at least not that I'm aware of.

______

 

Disclaimer: Talking/Ranting here as a long time customer, not as a Campaign Tester.

[key_stroked]

Everybody take a step back, gramps is gonna tell an old war story now.

 

Back when the DCS A-10C was about to get released, rumors were running wiiiiiiild as to why it took so long til release. Some people made it sound like ED were taking our money to flee to some remote island, where they'd all enjoy cool drinks and hot chicks for the rest of their natural lives, not giving a crap about our life's savings.

 

Well. A day or two later DCS A-10C was released and that's the last I ever heard about those complaints.

 

End of old war story.

______

 

Wags has been completely and fully forthcoming about new Hornet features taking longer now, because they require more work. He said that weeks ago. And now people complain about a lack of updates and start accusing ED of $whatever?

 

Guys, seriously. Do not pre-purchase if you're not okay with this type of sales model. No one forced you to buy the Hornet or the Viper or any other module. It was your choice to do so, and the conditions have been communicated very clearly.

 

I certainly don't agree with every choice ED makes, and I certainly have many complaints. But complaining that there's no Hornet update in a couple of weeks?

That's like the frigging definition of Early Access, and the module is still in Early Access, for crying out loud.

 

So yeah, maybe ED should try to communicate more clearly what "Early Access" means, but seriously, as long as people make up whatever they want and accuse ED of not properly supporting an "out of Early Access" module that is still in Early Access, what good would it do? All the info is there, it's not hidden, and once again it is your choice to purchase, or to hold off, or not to purchase.

 

(Same for the 3rd parties, where similar complaints and misconceptions about "Early Access" and "Released" keep coming up.)

______

 

For legitimate bugs and problems, there are appropriate sub-forums, but there have never been any guarantees or promises as to how long it takes to fix those bugs, at least not that I'm aware of.

______

 

Disclaimer: Talking/Ranting here as a long time customer, not as a Campaign Tester.

 

My issue is Heatblur can't patch the F-14 on their own. They have to wait for ED's master patch, which means the fixes for the Tomcat's flight model have been on ice for 2 months now and are still being held hostage.

 

Every time the OB patch gets pushed, every developer that has a working fix ready to go for their own product gets their fix pushed as well.

[NineLine]

My issue is Heatblur can't patch the F-14 on their own. They have to wait for ED's master patch, which means the fixes for the Tomcat's flight model have been on ice for 2 months now and are still being held hostage.

 

Every time the OB patch gets pushed, every developer that has a working fix ready to go for their own product gets their fix pushed as well.

 

Yet part or most of the delay was issue with a 3rd Party (or parties) not having their modules ready. I know it's easier, but painting ED the villian doesn't always work.

 

But it does have something to do with the Fw-190 development?

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3934656&postcount=158

 

It, for one week, took the focus of the internal testers making the Hornet dev team want to hold the JSOW for one more week for more testing, so what's your point?

Edited June 6, 2019 by NineLine

[bigalsunit]

NineLine,

 

Is the Hornet's EA period scheduled to extend into the F-16's EA release?

[key_stroked]

Yet part or most of the delay was issue with a 3rd Party (or parties) not having their modules ready. I know it's easier, but painting ED the villian doesn't always work.

 

The reason for the delay isn't the point, NineLine. The point is if Heatblur has a fix ready, I can't get access to it because they have to wait on you.

 

I don't like your patching system. You think that villainizes ED?

 

It, for one week, took the focus of the internal testers making the Hornet dev team want to hold the JSOW for one more week for more testing, so what's your point?

 

My point is you made it sound like other projects weren't delaying development of the F-18, but according to Wags the development of the A-8 did pull the testing team off testing the JSOW.

 

Are you saying that testing the module isn't part of the development of it?

[NineLine]

The reason for the delay isn't the point, NineLine. The point is if Heatblur has a fix ready, I can't get access to it because they have to wait on you.

 

I don't like your patching system. You think that villainizes ED?

 

 

 

My point is you made it sound like other projects weren't delaying development of the F-18, but according to Wags the development of the A-8 did pull the testing team off testing the JSOW.

 

Are you saying that testing the module isn't part of the development of it?

 

Well when you say things like "being held hostage" when you don't even know the facts behind the delay, yes you are villainizing ED. Especially when it was held out of respect for those who would have suffered without their paid products in OB.

 

Wags wanted more testing time done, there wasn't enough confidence in JSOW right now, the fact that the A-8 was taking up test time probably wouldn't have changed that much. And we are talking 1 week delay on JSOW, if that is too much, I really don't know what to say.

Edited June 6, 2019 by NineLine

[NineLine]

NineLine,

 

Is the Hornet's EA period scheduled to extend into the F-16's EA release?

 

I don't think there is a set in stone period, but ideally the Hornet would be all buttoned up before the Viper release, but as we have seen, things happen and some overlapping could occur.

Edited June 6, 2019 by NineLine

[backspace340]

I don't think there is a set in stone period, but ideally the Hornet would be all buttoned up before the Viper release, but as we have seen, things happen and some overlapping could occur.

 

That's a bit unexpected to be honest - just looking at the things that are left that we've not heard about yet and the normal pace of delivery, I'dve thought the Hornet EA would've extended a long time past early/start of Autumn. The biggest piece we've not really heard about is the AG radar - is that a lot further along than it seems then?

[NineLine]

That's a bit unexpected to be honest - just looking at the things that are left that we've not heard about yet and the normal pace of delivery, I'dve thought the Hornet EA would've extended a long time past early/start of Autumn. The biggest piece we've not really heard about is the AG radar - is that a lot further along than it seems then?

 

More up to Wags to discuss where items are, but the whole team is hard at work, and the Hornet is getting much love, even if it doesn't always show through updates.

[ShalashakaDS]

I don't think there is a set in stone period, but ideally the Hornet would be all buttoned up before the Viper release, but as we have seen, things happen and some overlapping could occur.

 

 

I understant you are giving us a best case scenario here, but could you please clarify this a little? I mean, are you saying that the intention is to have the hornet out of early acess by the time the f-16 hits early acess? I ask this because we still have no word on major features of the hornet like the IR renderer or the AG radar, not even a single picture, and with only 4 guys working on the hornet systems (if this is still the case) i really dont see that happening before autumn 2019. Always hoping for the best though.

[NineLine]

I understant you are giving us a best case scenario here, but could you please clarify this a little? I mean, are you saying that the intention is to have the hornet out of early acess by the time the f-16 hits early acess? I ask this because we still have no word on major features of the hornet like the IR renderer or the AG radar, not even a single picture, and with only 4 guys working on the hornet systems (if this is still the case) i really dont see that happening before autumn 2019. Always hoping for the best though.

 

The goal would be not to have them both Early Access at the same time, being realistic, things can happen, and it's possible.

 

When you say IT renderer, I assume you mean the FLIR update? That is a separate development from the Hornet.

[hansangb]

The reason for the delay isn't the point, NineLine. The point is if Heatblur has a fix ready, I can't get access to it because they have to wait on you.

 

I don't like your patching system. You think that villainizes ED?

 

My point is you made it sound like other projects weren't delaying development of the F-18, but according to Wags the development of the A-8 did pull the testing team off testing the JSOW.

 

Are you saying that testing the module isn't part of the development of it?

 

 

No but it doesn't paint you in a great light either. Do you have ANY idea how much effort goes into build engines like Jenkins/Bamboo or home grown systems? Hell it takes a *team* of people to create auto regression testing even with auto builds. To say that ED should change the internal system *JUST* to accommodate a patch from one 3rd party or another is insane.

 

 

Think it through. What happens next? A patch every day because Dora has a patch it wants to push? And Heatblur the next? And Gazelle the next?

 

 

There is the ENGINE of DCS, and others feed into it. So the system has to be able to cope with it.

 

My god, you people act and sound like the most spoiled brats on earth. It's just a delay in a GAME. No one is going to die, no one is going to suffer because a new feature is delayed.

 

I want my VR patches too, but I'm a grown up so I can deal with bumps in the road. Be like a grown up for godsakes.

 

It's a good thing I don't work for ED because I would have yanked all your licenses and refunded you. With an email that reads, "You want Hornet? Come Back! ONE YEAR"

 

 

 

 

 

PS: I have to believe some folks in ED were tempted to do the above.....LOL

Edited June 6, 2019 by hansangb