Possibility of F-14D?

[csdigitaldesign]

Its not an Opinion, its fact

 

A. Theres no point withholding any A/B manuals, They have them already. Their Tomcats were later Block As and had most of the changes introduced with the early Bs with Exception to the Engines and FCS Changes.

 

B. The D Tomcat's capabilities will remain classified because of the exported A Models. Its that simple. It has nothing to do with reverse engineering,

 

My father was an AE1 and maintained Tomcats for VF-101 and was deployed several times to maintain B and Ds during deployments in the 90s. And thats all they talked about as the Tomcats retirement began, was keeping documents, manuals and parts under lock and key for all Blocks.

 

 

As soon as all of Iran's Tomcats are INOP, that may change, but I doubt it, as they would try to procure parts.

 

They already lost 2 Tomcats this month to crashes.

 

One 2 weeks ago and another in the last 24 hrs.

 

Actually, there's a NAVAIR 01-F14AAD-1A document that is being held by the US Government and is classified still. However it seems to me that it's not because most of the stuff in there anymore.. it comes down to the AN/AAS−42 Infrared Search and Track System which evolved into the Lockheed Legion Pod which is still used by modern planes and IS classified. I've been talking to Heatblur about the whole thing... we'll see if there's anything they can do about getting the OTHER information in the 1A manual that's not classified.. but who knows.. unfortunately they need that document to be able to model the F-14D properly. Guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.

[csdigitaldesign]

Its not an Opinion, its fact

 

A. Theres no point withholding any A/B manuals, They have them already. Their Tomcats were later Block As and had most of the changes introduced with the early Bs with Exception to the Engines and FCS Changes.

 

B. The D Tomcat's capabilities will remain classified because of the exported A Models. Its that simple. It has nothing to do with reverse engineering,

 

My father was an AE1 and maintained Tomcats for VF-101 and was deployed several times to maintain B and Ds during deployments in the 90s. And thats all they talked about as the Tomcats retirement began, was keeping documents, manuals and parts under lock and key for all Blocks.

 

 

As soon as all of Iran's Tomcats are INOP, that may change, but I doubt it, as they would try to procure parts.

 

They already lost 2 Tomcats this month to crashes.

 

One 2 weeks ago and another in the last 24 hrs.

 

The D's capabilities has nothing to do with anything being classified. It has nothing to do with exported A models. In fact almost all of the planes information is on the web publicly. Like I stated in a response before.. it's the IRST module that's keeping a sub manual for the F-14D classified. You can also find the majority of it's systems very well documented all over the net. Search for NAVAIR 01−F14AAD−1 and you will see.

Edited July 24, 2019 by csdigitaldesign

[Silver_Dragon]

Heatblur require a "Aprobal" by ED to build a F-14D module. Not sure if ED has interest to break rules by the DoD or other US military stament to get a "module" by the old "developer" problem in the pass.

 

Remember the problems with Russian aircraft "Hardcore" modules and some "projects" depleted as Tu-22s by "sensible" material.

[csdigitaldesign]

F14D's been retired for 13 years. and those are still classified?

 

How would it be that such information pertaining to an F15E's radar and weapons or Hornets radar and weapons can be modeled when these aircraft are still operationally used, but F14 hasn't been for well over a decade? When the AN/AGP73 like F14's An/AGP71 had lots of technology derived from the Strike eagles AN/APG70 radar's digital components.:huh:

 

Or is the information just unavailable for other reasons? Ie just lost from archives or something?

 

Actually I've done some research and found the ONLY reason Heatblur can't make the F-14D yet is because of the document NAVAIR 01−F14AAD−1A... which includes it's weapons systems, radar, IRST, LANTIRN, Electonic Warfare systems, etc. The NAVAIR 01−F14AAD−1 document is easily found on the net and details most of the aircraft except for those systems. At the time they separated that document BECAUSE most of that was classified.

 

Today only 1 system from what I can tell in that document is still classified. The AN/AAS−42 Infrared Search and Track System. Why? Because the AN/AAS−42 Infrared Search and Track System became the Legion Pod which is made by Lockheed and is still used today by the government.

 

That's what's currently holding the NAVAIR 01−F14AAD−1A back from be declassifed. Not because of any export planes or anything like that. Hopefully Heatblur might find a way to get the REST of the information from that document minus the chapter about the IRST.. but don't hold your breath. I just keep some hope in the back of my head...and we can just wait and see.

 

Anyways Heatblur already have documentation on MOST of the systems from the NAVAIR 01−F14AAD−1 document. Unfortunately it's not enough for them to make the D. They need that last bit.

[csdigitaldesign]

Heatblur require a "Aprobal" by ED to build a F-14D module. Not sure if ED has interest to break rules by the DoD or other US military stament to get a "module" by the old "developer" problem in the pass.

 

Remember the problems with Russian aircraft "Hardcore" modules and some "projects" depleted as Tu-22s by "sensible" material.

 

Nobody is saying Heatblur should do anything illegal or without permission. They just need to get the documentation approval legally. Most of the information on the F-14D is not a problem. NAVAIR 01−F14AAD−1A is the issue.

Edited July 24, 2019 by csdigitaldesign

[csdigitaldesign]

and the documents will remain classified as long as Iran flies 14's.

 

It has ZERO to do with Iran flying F-14s.

[j-tk]

I'd pay extra for a D DLC.

[-P51DMustang-]

Guys... If heatblur can't they can't.

So harassing them. Also as we should expect, next module from HB may be A6 intruder since they heavily tease it before tomcat release...

Now they got HUUUUGE amount of work to do for A tomcat and asset pack... So maybe it's not time to speak about what next yet?! Give them time and space and let see where we are in 1 or 2 year. Maybe then... we can talk about D Tomcat.

 

But as i should remind you, chuck couldn't do a chuck guide because he work with us army contractors and they told him he could get in trouble by doing this. I'm sure HB did all legal stuff to avoid trouble like ED few year ago with full russian jets. But yet. Tomcat papers and info are very very sensitive whatever the model is.

 

Moreover IRAN search to improve/update it's tomcats, so even if some papers are available about D variants, not everything is available. And if so, we are not sure its 100% reliable to do a module.

 

So i won't be complaining about not having D version. we have B allready, we will get A... It's enough to me :)

 

And for ppl taking F15E as comparition, should i remind you razbam will do late 80's version because they can't gather enough infos from latest updates of F15E???

And ED collaborate with Boeing and lockeed to get F18 and F16 done properly, maybe manufacturer choose the variant they will allow. Nothing sure there except ED, making a partnership, get loooooott more stuff. And even if there were no partnership Hornet and Vyper sold at so much country finding declassified/classified stuff is easy. While Tomcat and strike eagle still remain confidential ;)

 

Finally should i remind you some A10C, Hornet or even weapons systems ingame are classified and ED couldn't add them or had to add them simplified. For example JDAMS?

 

So stop ask some planes that dev said they can't do. Whatever the reason, if they said no, its no.

[stuart666]

Id rather a perfectly done A and B than a half baked D model. They have made a perfectly reasonable explanation why they cant do it, its time to stop mussing their hair over it.

 

 

Now if you have time, there is this really great concept I have for a De Havilland Sea Vixen, I wont take up much of your time.....

 

 

:D

[ebabil]

i would love to see D model

[-P51DMustang-]

@stuart666

Now if you have time, there is this really great concept I have for a De Havilland Sea Vixen, I wont take up much of your time.....

Joke aside... A sea vixen... Like this era planes, would be awesome. I also like venom and sea venom (wich are kind of older brother). It would also perfectly fit with Draken, Mirage III, F4E... Even a F100, Hunter, Javelin, Mystère IV, Super Mystère, F104 (not the mod one) would be fun to give challenger to the Mig 19 :p Unfortunately no one seems to care about these old boïs :p Maybe too old? :)

[SkateZilla]

It has ZERO to do with Iran flying F-14s.

 

I know for a fact this statement is wrong, and I'll leave it at that.

 

The IRST Evolved to...

The ANAPG71 is Part of the ANAPG70

 

Half of the -D Upgrades were taken from other programs to save money, along with the -B Upgrades.

Edited July 24, 2019 by SkateZilla

[stuart666]

@stuart666

Joke aside... A sea vixen... Like this era planes, would be awesome. I also like venom and sea venom (wich are kind of older brother). It would also perfectly fit with Draken, Mirage III, F4E... Even a F100, Hunter, Javelin, Mystère IV, Super Mystère, F104 (not the mod one) would be fun to give challenger to the Mig 19 :p Unfortunately no one seems to care about these old boïs :p Maybe too old? :)

 

 

A Sea Vixen was one of the earliest aircraft I remember seeing, being dragged across a road in front of me for storage in a hangar, before presumably being turned into a target drone. A handsome looking aeroplane, its a great shame the last flying survivor had its mishap and is now grounded.

 

 

 

I suppose at the risk of being parochial, I would love to see a British Jet aircraft in this sim. Ok, we have the AV8B, but its not quite the same. Id love a sea vixen, but im not sure it would be popular. I hazard the thought a Buccaneer almost certainly would be. Particularly with an Ark Royal to land it on.

 

 

 

There are so many well documented, historic aircraft out there. I dont get the fascination with an interesting but small build group of aircraft for which there isnt even adequate documentation. Why not ask for a Lockheed A12 sim as well. :D

[SgtPappy]

@stuart666

Joke aside... A sea vixen... Like this era planes, would be awesome. I also like venom and sea venom (wich are kind of older brother). It would also perfectly fit with Draken, Mirage III, F4E... Even a F100, Hunter, Javelin, Mystère IV, Super Mystère, F104 (not the mod one) would be fun to give challenger to the Mig 19 :p Unfortunately no one seems to care about these old boïs :p Maybe too old? :)

 

I know we're getting a little off -topic but I just have to chime in - I'm waiting so patiently for the F-4E (for which I am losing hope) and then the Vietnam War community will have so much fun and reason to fly that era of planes :)

[Wizard_03]

In turn what about the F14B(U) model?

 

 

I've been lobbying for that since they revealed we weren't getting PTID. I was legitimately confused at why they picked an F-14B that is so similar to the F-14A.

 

My thought was that we were gonna get an F-14A with all the classic tomcat equipment and systems and then a much more modern F-14B(U) with DFCS, JDAMs, Sparrowhawk, and PTID that would fit into DCS a lot better. In actuality the way Heatblur implemented the LANTIRN is somewhat unrepresentative of they way it was actually employed on the real jet (with PTID). While the pod and controller could be integrated with the fishbowl and may very well have been used in combat that way, (at most a single deployment, as quasi; "proof of concept/wanted the capability sooner due to real world needs") the vast majority of LANTIRN capable F-14Bs (and As) got PTID as well, and the ability to use JDAMs, that was the whole point of the upgrade. Sparrowhawk on the other hand came at the very end of the F-14Bs career. But personally I was really hoping for PTID and DFCS at least.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Wizard_03

[Naquaii]

I've been lobbying for that since they revealed we weren't getting PTID. I was legitimately confused at why they picked an F-14B that is so similar to the F-14A.

 

My thought was that we were gonna get an F-14A with all the classic tomcat equipment and systems and then a much more modern F-14B(U) with DFCS, JDAMs, Sparrowhawk, and PTID that would fit into DCS a lot better. In actuality the way Heatblur implemented the LANTIRN is somewhat unrepresentative of they way it was actually employed on the real jet (with PTID). While the pod and controller could be integrated with the fishbowl and may very well have been used in combat that way, (at most a single deployment, as quasi; "proof of concept/wanted the capability sooner due to real world needs") the vast majority of LANTIRN capable F-14Bs (and As) got PTID as well, and the ability to use JDAMs, that was the whole point of the upgrade. Sparrowhawk on the other hand came at the very end of the F-14Bs career. But personally I was really hoping for PTID and DFCS at least.

 

Problem is we're also missing data on the PTID, especially regarding all the different menus available. It's less of a black hole than the -D but still missing critical stuff.

[vadupleix]

I've been lobbying for that since they revealed we weren't getting PTID. I was legitimately confused at why they picked an F-14B that is so similar to the F-14A.

 

My thought was that we were gonna get an F-14A with all the classic tomcat equipment and systems and then a much more modern F-14B(U) with DFCS, JDAMs, Sparrowhawk, and PTID that would fit into DCS a lot better. In actuality the way Heatblur implemented the LANTIRN is somewhat unrepresentative of they way it was actually employed on the real jet (with PTID). While the pod and controller could be integrated with the fishbowl and may very well have been used in combat that way, (at most a single deployment, as quasi; "proof of concept/wanted the capability sooner due to real world needs") the vast majority of LANTIRN capable F-14Bs (and As) got PTID as well, and the ability to use JDAMs, that was the whole point of the upgrade. Sparrowhawk on the other hand came at the very end of the F-14Bs career. But personally I was really hoping for PTID and DFCS at least.

 

I interpret the B variant we have to be what the Tomcat “should have been” in 70s with its intended F401 engine. This brings a pride with it being the fighter that out-range, out-climb, out-turn, out-accelerate everyone else much like the role of F22 today. A late 1990-2000s F14, F18, or F16 simply does not have this pride with all the gen 4+ and gen 5s around:D

(This is not HBs reasoning for sure, but I’m very glad they made this choice. I love the AFCS)

[Wizard_03]

Problem is we're also missing data on the PTID, especially regarding all the different menus available. It's less of a black hole than the -D but still missing critical stuff.

 

 

And that is perfectly understandable, and I'm not trying to be-little your team's work. I wish the documentation was available for you too. But I'm also glad you guys don't take too many liberties or model systems you don't have data on, that IMO separates DCS from other sims.

[csdigitaldesign]

Guys... If heatblur can't they can't.

So harassing them. Also as we should expect, next module from HB may be A6 intruder since they heavily tease it before tomcat release...

Now they got HUUUUGE amount of work to do for A tomcat and asset pack... So maybe it's not time to speak about what next yet?! Give them time and space and let see where we are in 1 or 2 year. Maybe then... we can talk about D Tomcat.

 

But as i should remind you, chuck couldn't do a chuck guide because he work with us army contractors and they told him he could get in trouble by doing this. I'm sure HB did all legal stuff to avoid trouble like ED few year ago with full russian jets. But yet. Tomcat papers and info are very very sensitive whatever the model is.

 

Moreover IRAN search to improve/update it's tomcats, so even if some papers are available about D variants, not everything is available. And if so, we are not sure its 100% reliable to do a module.

 

So i won't be complaining about not having D version. we have B allready, we will get A... It's enough to me :)

 

And for ppl taking F15E as comparition, should i remind you razbam will do late 80's version because they can't gather enough infos from latest updates of F15E???

And ED collaborate with Boeing and lockeed to get F18 and F16 done properly, maybe manufacturer choose the variant they will allow. Nothing sure there except ED, making a partnership, get loooooott more stuff. And even if there were no partnership Hornet and Vyper sold at so much country finding declassified/classified stuff is easy. While Tomcat and strike eagle still remain confidential ;)

 

Finally should i remind you some A10C, Hornet or even weapons systems ingame are classified and ED couldn't add them or had to add them simplified. For example JDAMS?

 

So stop ask some planes that dev said they can't do. Whatever the reason, if they said no, its no.

 

WHO is harassing them? That's a dumb thing to say. They want to make a F-14D just as much as we want one. I was trying to HELP them do that... I don't see how that's HARASSMENT. If they told me no, we aren't doing a F-14D I would not say another word.

[csdigitaldesign]

Id rather a perfectly done A and B than a half baked D model. They have made a perfectly reasonable explanation why they cant do it, its time to stop mussing their hair over it.

 

 

Now if you have time, there is this really great concept I have for a De Havilland Sea Vixen, I wont take up much of your time.....

 

 

:D

 

Why does everyone say this when the D is brought up? NOBODY said we should tell them to stop working on the A and B... they should finish that. But when they are done, if they are able and want to.. what's wrong with them making a D? SHEESH.

[csdigitaldesign]

I know for a fact this statement is wrong, and I'll leave it at that.

 

The IRST Evolved to...

The ANAPG71 is Part of the ANAPG70

 

Half of the -D Upgrades were taken from other programs to save money, along with the -B Upgrades.

 

There's nothing classified about the ANAPG71.

 

It took me a whopping 5 minutes to find documents about it's performance, testing, variants, technical data... all in one report on the internet. And this report was back from 1999. I don't know if it was classified back then and it was just released later or not.. but CURRENTLY it's information that the public has now. It's NOT classified.

Edited July 25, 2019 by csdigitaldesign

[csdigitaldesign]

And that is perfectly understandable, and I'm not trying to be-little your team's work. I wish the documentation was available for you too. But I'm also glad you guys don't take too many liberties or model systems you don't have data on, that IMO separates DCS from other sims.

 

Yeah after talking to somebody from Heatblur I'm under no delusions (not that I was before) that they aren't doing their damnedest to try and make a F-14D. We can't fault them in the least.

Edited July 25, 2019 by csdigitaldesign

[QuiGon]

But I'm also glad you guys don't take too many liberties or model systems you don't have data on, that IMO separates DCS from other sims.

I really want to stress this point, because that is what DCS is all about for me. I rather have no F-14D at all than a fantasy F-14D (applies to any other aircraft as well)!

Edited July 25, 2019 by QuiGon

[stuart666]

I predict that the very day an F14D is made for DCS, someone will pipe up and say 'Gee... No Tomcat 21 already?' :D

[Kev2go]

 

.

 

 

 

Yea your reasoning as to the "why" makes more sense

Edited July 25, 2019 by Kev2go