MiG-29's BFM characteristics / doubts

[bies]

Did you test that at realistic FM option? No mods?

 

IRL MiG-29 regulated intakes are not able to decelerate air to subsonic at Ma2,9 so it would surge the engines somewhere at Ma2,5 i guess.

(It's the case in full fidelity modules like i.e. MiG-21bis.)

 

Other thing is even if MiG-29 would have it's intakes and engines modified to go Ma2,9 it's probably too dragy airframe to go that fast anyway.

 

And even assuming it would manage to go Ma2,9 the duralumin airframe and canopy would start to melt.

[Ashcroft]

I was just doing some refresher flying and noticed that the Mig 29A seemed extraordinarily powerful. It was screaming along even at 50% throttle with weapons loaded.

 

I thought I had just forgotten what it was like to fly

[Eber]

Did you test that at realistic FM option? No mods?

 

Yes, realistic FM, no mods.

[bbrz]

How do you get TAS displayed on the HUD?

 

What was the temp and wind during this test.

 

Even with cheating (starting the flight at 12500m with full internal fuel) I couldn't get past M2.58.

 

Furthermore after a few minutes at M2.58 I get a LH afterburner failure on each test.

Edited March 1, 2020 by bbrz

[Eber]

I did this on the Aerobatics Online Multiplayer Server. The temp is as i remember -2 °C. The wind was coming from west and I was heading north as i can remember... Tomorrow i will repeat the test in single player. Maybe this is an influence?

 

Edit: the TAS can be displayed using the "2" BVR mode. Or in F2 view Ctrl Y (or Z)

Edited March 1, 2020 by Eber

[bbrz]

Just tried at -2°C (gnd temp) and M2.2 was max.

[Eber]

I just tested in singleplayer Instant action free flight with mig29A. I reached M2.56. I will do more flights tomorrow.

[six.dof]

The flight models of Mig29 and Su27 compared with F-18, F-16,F15 feels like that the US are far superior, much more easy to fly, in contrast real pilots love the MIG29 for it precise and good behavior ...

anyway, just my unqualified comment on this topic

[Eber]

In a test in a Mission Builder mission the Mig-29S made it to M2.60. The Max speed bug seems to appear only in that MP server. I did not test other servers. I dont know special conditions.

 

Anyway:

 

The flight models of Mig29 and Su27 compared with F-18, F-16,F15 feels like that the US are far superior, much more easy to fly, in contrast real pilots love the MIG29 for it precise and good behavior ...

anyway, just my unqualified comment on this topic

 

This is the central point of my bug report, as shown in the video linked above. Maybe you guys from ED can have a look at the Mig-29, even though we are just unqualified non-pilots IRL.

[bbrz]

This is the central point of my bug report, as shown in the video linked above. Maybe you guys from ED can have a look at the Mig-29, even though we are just unqualified non-pilots IRL.

As a RW pilot I'm quite happy with the MiG-29 FM. This and the F-5 FM I like most due to their general handling and responsiveness.

The FBW aircraft like the F-16 & 18 are really boring if it's about flying, not fighting IMO.

[draconus]

Eber, go to MP server where the bug exists and try to reproduce again. Save the track after and attach here. Remember some settings may be forced by server so they may be not what you have selected in DCS options.

[bies]

The flight models of Mig29 and Su27 compared with F-18, F-16,F15 feels like that the US are far superior, much more easy to fly, in contrast real pilots love the MIG29 for it precise and good behavior ...

anyway, just my unqualified comment on this topic

 

MiG-29 is a beautiful machine but in opinion of every pilot lucky enough to fly both MiG-29 and F-16/F-18 the US planes are far easier to fly and far less engaging, simply care free. They use so called FBW, computer indirect flight controls.

 

MiG-29 use classic older solution - direct mechanical flight control, something like first F-14 Tomcat and it's obviously far more challenging to fly than FBW jets.

 

MiG-29 due to it's aerodynamics with big lift surface was far easier to fly than previous Soviet fighters - rocket with pilot inside interceptors - like MiG-21, MiG-23, Su-15, MiG-25. That's why in opinion of most Soviet pilots MiG-29 was easy to fly.

 

Cheers

[Eber]

Hello,

 

well I think have to add something. ED, please have a look at the FM of the MiG-29, no matter what me or others say. I think most of us are unqualified non-pilots so the revisit should just depend on your own opinion. Please just revisit your own creation for best sim/gameplay experience. If then you think its fine, ok then let it be fine. If you think it's not fine, then you could change it. If you are already sure that no revisit is necessary at all, please tell me.

 

Kind regards

Eber

 

PS. I will now try to reproduce the Max speed test on the Aerobatics Online Server.

[draconus]

ED does not simply go and "revisit" all the FM of the module just because you asked. It's a huge undertaking and it costs man hours better spent elsewhere. So you do your tests and provide info on what is wrong. Only with that information when ED testers can reproduce the bug it will get to the bug tracker and wait for a fix.

[Eber]

ED does not simply go and "revisit" all the FM of the module just because you asked. It's a huge undertaking and it costs man hours better spent elsewhere. So you do your tests and provide info on what is wrong. Only with that information when ED testers can reproduce the bug it will get to the bug tracker and wait for a fix.

 

 

Hello Draconus,

alright. I asked for a revisit. The reason for this is documented in the video I linked in the first post. Its a strange behaviour in my opinion ("leaf in in the wind") which I can't describe with further data. If that is not enough reason for revisit and adjustment, then it's okay. Sorry for asking.

 

I did just test the Speed of the Mig-29S in AO server and I again went faster than 3000 kph. I then opened the replay menue and saw a possible explanation for the high speed:

 

 

So maybe the low pressure in the mountains fastens my plane?

The Replay has a size of 18 MB, that is a bit high. The tacview file i cant attach, because the uploader does not accept these acmi files.

 

Sorry for the missing data, but as I've said before it's not the speed thing but the "leaf like behaviour" which makes a revisit a good choice in my opinion. And herefore I've just got that airshow video above. :/

[danvac]

@Eber, check here, what all you should do to proper report bug: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=147710

 

Testers and develepors have a lot on their shoulders, so you should provide as much info as possible. Try to report each issues separately and provide short tracks showing it instead of long track showing all at once.

[draconus]

Large files can be uploaded to free external servers like this: https://uploadfiles.io/

[BIGNEWY]

Hi

 

we would need to see a track replay to do a bug report, it needs to be as short as possible as large track replays can create problems.

 

If you do have a short track replay that you think demonstrates the issue please attach and we will take a look

 

thank you

[Eber]

Ok, here we go:

 

Mig29FMissue.trk

 

Please have a look at that flight behavior. In my opinion it is not realistic.

[BIGNEWY]

Ok, here we go:

 

[ATTACH]229095[/ATTACH]

 

Please have a look at that flight behavior. In my opinion it is not realistic.

 

Can I ask you what you think is wrong and what that opinion is based on? do you have info that shows it is incorrect?

 

Thanks

[Eber]

Can I ask you what you think is wrong and what that opinion is based on? do you have info that shows it is incorrect?

 

Thanks

 

 

Yea in my opinion the MiG29S in DCS pitches up rapidly and "snaps" back like its was way too light. It just behaves like a leaf. You pitch up do your cobra but immediatly snap back. The plane is a nervous model plane not a 15 tons fighter jet.

 

I posted the real Mig-29 in another thread in december:

 

At minute 2:50 he does that legendary maneuver.

 

 

thanks for your time

Edited March 2, 2020 by Eber

[BIGNEWY]

Thanks found the thread and merged it.

 

As it stands I dont think any change will be made, the devs have worked on the flight model and will have used the best data available. If better data becomes available I am sure they will look at it again but feelings are not the best source.

 

thanks

[Eber]

Alright, thank you!

[bbrz]

Just watched your track but I didn't see any 'snap' back. If you watch the replay from the cockpit POV you will notice that a lot of forward stick is being applied before the nose pitches down.

The pitch up rate is noticeable higher than the pitch down rate.

 

Nowhere in your track I did see an AoA which came even close to the AoA which occurs during the cobra.

[Ironhand]

Yea in my opinion the MiG29S in DCS pitches up rapidly and "snaps" back like its was way too light. It just behaves like a leaf. You pitch up do your cobra but immediatly snap back. The plane is a nervous model plane not a 15 tons fighter jet.

 

...

I'll admit that your track seems odd in F2 view with its 2-dimensional movement. But, when you view it in 3 dimensions, it seems pretty normal given your airspeed: