[WIP] RAID SCAN

[Beamscanner]

Raid Scan does not function properly.

RAID scan is not used to zoom in on closely spaced trackfiles. (thats what EXP is for) RAID is used on a single trackfile to see if that one trackfile is actually two (or more) aircraft in close proximity sharing a very close doppler. RAID scan will center the screen on the trackfile and populate Hits behind it in a range vs doppler display (X axis = doppler, Y axis = range). The pilot then monitors the path of the Hits to see if there are two or more linear paths indicating two or more aircraft within the beam.

 

further details:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3956626&postcount=1

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4129145&postcount=12

 

 

Track can be found here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4147257&postcount=1

 

 

 

Mods require separate threads for each item, but the forum will not allow me to upload the same track twice.

 

"You have already attached this file in thread : [ONE ITEM PER REPORT] TWS and other Radar issues"

Edited December 26, 2019 by Beamscanner

[falcon_120]

Raid Scan does not function properly.

RAID scan is not used to zoom in on closely spaced trackfiles. (thats what EXP is for) RAID is used on a single trackfile to see if that one trackfile is actually two (or more) aircraft in close proximity sharing a very close doppler. RAID scan will center the screen on the trackfile and populate Hits behind it in a range vs doppler display (X axis = doppler, Y axis = range). The pilot then monitors the path of the Hits to see if there are two or more linear paths indicating two or more aircraft within the beam.

 

further details:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3956626&postcount=1

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4129145&postcount=12

 

 

Track can be found here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4147257&postcount=1

 

 

 

Mods require separate threads for each item, but the forum will not allow me to upload the same track twice.

 

"You have already attached this file in thread : [ONE ITEM PER REPORT] TWS and other Radar issues"

 

 

You are right, on the other hand the problem is not that RAID is not working properly, the problem is it cannot work properly if doppler cell resolution (2 targets in close proximity appearing as a single contact) is not simulated. So I would ask ED to please simulate this effect in order to improve realism and radar management fun :).

[NineLine]

Please make a specific track to the issue, please.

[falcon_120]

Please make a specific track to the issue, please.

Nineline what are you expecting exactly? As already explained RAID mode works ok, since it cannot do what is designed to do in DCS.

 

-For it to make any sense you should sometimes see singles contacts for more of one aircraft flying in tight formation, WHICH NEVER happens in the DCS F18 radar.

 

Or am i missing something?

 

Enviado desde mi SM-G950F mediante Tapatalk

[Harker]

I don't know if a track would help, since this is not a bug. Right now, RAID does the same thing as EXP, with the difference that the beam is focused on the L&S. IRL, that L&S contact could instead be two closely grouped aircraft and RAID would be used to try and split the L&S into two radar contacts; that's why the beam focuses on the L&S, in order to use sharpening to tell the two contacts apart.

But in DCS, two aircraft will always produce two distinct radar contacts, no matter how closely spaced they are. It might be difficult to designate them both, because they'll be so close to each other and that's what EXP is for. Another way to look at it is that RAID right now helps to visually resolve bunched up contacts and manage them, at least. Which, as long as the aforementioned effect is not simulated, I guess makes RAID useful in that way, at least.

Beamscanner's link shows how the Raid Assessment Mode (RAM) works in the F-15's radar, at 2:30 and 6:15. It might be useful to the devs. @Beamscanner if you have any documents that describe how it works in the F/A-18C, consider sending a PM with them to NL.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Harker

[Beamscanner]

This paper somewhat describes the theory of operation.

 

http://www.radarindia.com/irsi13papers/13-FP-015.pdf

[NineLine]

Ok, I see what you guys are saying now, I will look into it this weekend. Might be RAID is WIP, but I will ask around.

[Beamscanner]

any update on this?

[falcon_120]

+1

 

Enviado desde mi SM-G950F mediante Tapatalk

[aaron886]

DCS still seems to have pretty oversimplified radar modeling, hence the lack of resolution cells, apparent lack of range gating, and “dice roll” chaff effects. I also see trackfiles with no apparent ability to absorb missed frames and STT with poor resolution/interpolation

[bies]

Doppler resolution is crucial factor in BVR air combat tactics and it doesn't seem to be complicated to code at all, even in scripted form. Other old sims did that.

 

Just include the distance between two targets in formation in function of distance. And some factor for each radar.

 

RAID will allow to distinguish if there is one target or more in a single contact on radar at further distance.

Seems to be a low hanging fruit.

Edited March 27, 2020 by bies

[Krippz]

Doppler resolution is crucial factor in BVR air combat tactics and it doesn't seem to be complicated to code at all, even in scripted form. Other old sims did that.

 

Just include the distance between two targets in formation in function of distance. And some factor for each radar.

 

RAID will allow to distinguish if there is one target or more in a single contact on radar at further distance.

Seems to be a low hanging fruit.

 

Agreed.

[Beamscanner]

Below is an illustrative explanation on how RAID generally works in air-to-air radar.

 

Source:

 

Basic explanation:

 

Normal search modes:

 

Using RAID:

[Smashy]

From TWS, establish STT and then enter RAID mode.  All visible trackfiles are shown with L&S star symbol.

Additional oddities:

• entering RAID seems to "work" after establishing STT track from RWS
• EXP is boxed when entering RAID.  Note: in the attached track, I'm not hitting the OSB to box EXP, I'm using the "RAID/FLIR FOV" HOTAS function to enter RAID
• weird numerical values displayed in RAID mode where target altitude differential is typically displayed

 

multiple L&S with SCAN RAID.trk

[Hulkbust44]

All expected behavior. The L+S Star for all tracks is just old logic, not wrong. Wrong for what we should have but correct by ED's documentation.

Edited May 14, 2022 by Hulkbust44

[Beamscanner]

This is correct, and not old logic. 

 

The problem is that you can see multiple aircraft flying near each other (in range/velocity/angle) in the first place in RWS/TWS/STT.

 

The whole point of RAID is to breakout aircraft that may have combined into the same range/doppler bin.

 

ex I know y'all have seen Top Gun before. Remember when the ships radar sees two contacts, and as they got closer, it 'turned into 4 contacts'. Those pairs of aircraft combined on the radar screen because they were so close. as they got closer the enemy jets could of been broken up into separate contacts by

 

What SHOULD happen is that the contacts should of appeared as one target in your radar. (again assuming they were in roughly the same range and closing velocity)

The pilot would sanitize the target by performing a RAID on the 'single' target. 

This forces the radar to slow down and process a lot more data to figure out if that target is truly one target or if multiple targets exist. 

 

So yes, one L&S should exist in RWS/TWS/STT. In RAID, it looks at that 'one L&S' and determines if its actually multiple jets. 

 

DCS does not simulate target combining and treats RAID like an expand (zoom in) option. (its not)

 

Target combining would also increase the 'combined targets' RCS. 

 

ie if you could detect a Su-27 at 50nmi. two Su-27s flying in close formation (same range/doppler bins) would be detected well in excess of 50nmi. This is because both of their reflections would sum in the same range/doppler bin. Also, the combined RCS would be greater than the sum of their parts, because of multipath between the two (or more) aircraft. ie two 5msq targets would likely have a single RCS in excess of 12msq. 

 

 

The real bug is here: 

 

Edited May 14, 2022 by Beamscanner

[wwWolfcom]

So,this issue is still on going?