Japanese aircraft

[Jester986]

Which Japanese aircraft do we want for the Pacific? I'm not very well educated on them and aside from the Zero I'm not sure which are most relevant. So to those of you who know, which would be the most important to flesh out the theatre?

[Proof]

I'm unsure if you are asking for modules or AI, we know there is a Zero at least planned so for me I'd like to see both the B5N Kate and either the D3A or D4Y (the latter of which I believe saw action in the Marianas).

 

With the Zero as a fighter, these two options would add both a dive bomber and a torpedo bomber into the mix; a trio of roles I would also love to see the represented on both sides, as an example the Avenger and Dauntless for the US.

 

I'm sure there are people out there who will correct me on any historical inaccuracies/discrepancies for the time periods but I think these three roles for both sides would make for a very interesting and dynamic line up with a relatively small number of planes needed.

 

From my understanding information required to make complete Japanese aircraft modules is hard to come by, and so as much as I would love for the two I mentioned to be modules, I would still think they would be great additions even if limited to AI.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Proof
Typo

[Jester986]

I meant either AI or full module but your answer was just what I was looking for. It will be difficult to get enough information to do full modules but hopefully some will be manageable.

[Cunctator]

The G4M Betty would be my first choice. Long range, land based level and torpedo bomber operated by the IJN. Can double as transport. It does not require the presence of an aircraft carrier but can threaten any allied fleet while realistically operating from outside the map if necessary.

 

As an AI plane the G4M would be hugely valuable until the Japanese fleet can be modeled.

 

Since Magnitude is already developing the A6M5 Model 52, I would also opt for its predecessor A6M2. Refitted older A6M2 Zero models were used as (also carrier based) dive bombers in the 1944 time frame, as supplement and replacement for the dwindling number of D3As.

[twistking]

The G4M Betty would be my first choice. Long range, land based level and torpedo bomber operated by the IJN. Can double as transport. It does not require the presence of an aircraft carrier but can threaten any allied fleet while realistically operating from outside the map if necessary.[...]

Interesting consideration!

[Hiromachi]

Well, if I may recommend something for your wishes, since it's Marianas, aircraft relevant for 1944 Battle of Philippine Sea should be mentioned, namely:

Combined fleet:

- A6M2 and A6M5 fighters and fighter - bombers

- B6N and B5N torpedo bombers

- D3A2 and D4Y1 dive bombers

Land based units:

- A6M5 fighters

- G4M2 and P1Y bombers

- J1N1 twin-engine fighters

- D4Y dive bombers

- L2D and G5N2-N transport aircraft

[Jester986]

Thanks Hiro! Any of those stand out to you or anything interesting to share about any of them? I know assets are all a long way off but I'd like to learn more about the Japanese side through discussion.

[Hiromachi]

D4Y because it's probably the fastest dive bomber around. In 1942 they packed two of those (in 1942 it was only a reconnaissance aircraft) on board of IJN Soryu for combat evaluation during Midway Operation. One of them did its job, but obviously ended up in water. But in a level flight that soon to be capable dive bomber could outrun Wildcat :)

Plus I love the shape of that thing. Really clean lines.

 

Dont think I have to talk about Zeros. They are as legendary as Hellcat and Wildcat.

 

Another cool aircraft is P1Y which was a fast twin-engine bomber, fairly similar to German Ju-88 but with more emphasis on speed and ability to deliver torpedoes. Battle of Philippine Sea was it's combat debut. Unit which brought them to the Marianas was led by Takashige Egusa, dive bombing expert and creator of Japanese dive bombing doctrine. He perished during the battle during early morning attack I believe.

 

All in all Japanese had a mixed setup of older and newer designs. D3A, B5N and G4M were dated designs by that time of the war. Then you had newer machines such as D4Y, B6N, P1Y or C6N which were in most things comparable to US contemporaries. In some ways they bested them, in others they fell short.

[wasizyayo]

Army aircraft Oscar, which was an excellent aircraft because it had automatic air combat flaps

[Baco]

Since the first american Fighter we are getting is the Corsair I think you need the K Fighters.

I woudl say a Ki-84 to make it interesting, the Zero as legendary as it is, is no macth for the Corsair.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Baco
typos

[xvii-Dietrich]

Good discussion. I looked up Hiromachi's list and learned a few interesting things. Thanks!

 

Given the Marianas map and an Essex Class carrier... it strikes me that whatever attacked the USS Bunker Hill might be a good choice (REF). (But I couldn't find out details on which types were involved in that attack... does anyone know?)

 

But, personally, an E13A (REF) would be my first choice, but any seaplane would do. I know it is extremely unlikely to happen, but I can dream, right?

[WinterH]

@Hiromachi, definitely agree about D4Y and Zero.

 

D4Y packed some fighter-like performance and looks into a dive bomber body.

[Hiromachi]

(But I couldn't find out details on which types were involved in that attack... does anyone know?)

 

Probably D4Y from 601st Air Group. Around 6 of them managed to sneak through Hellcats at 3 PM local time and released bombs on Bunker Hill and Wasp.

But to be certain I would have to dive into this: https://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4499229502/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=%E3%83%9E%E3%83%AA%E3%82%A2%E3%83%8A%E6%B2%96%E6%B5%B7%E6%88%A6&qid=1579194426&sr=8-1

But I dont think it ever got translated, even though its the newest and most accurate account on Japanese actions during the battle.

[Bozon]

Since the first american Fighter we are getting is the Corsair I think you need the K Fighters.

I woudl say a Ki-84 to make it interesting, the Zero as legendary as it is, is no macth for the Corsair.

 

I agree. Zeros will be slaughtered by F4Us. KI84, KI100, and maybe N1K can give a Corsair a fight.

[Jester986]

Well I'd like to emphasize balance is not what were going for. If Corsairs fought Zeros we need the Zero. I'm all for other assets/modules but the Zero is iconic and we don't need a fair fight.

[WinterH]

One thing about DCS and Japanese aircraft, as far as I know, most of the Japanese documentation of Imperial Japanese military equipment was destroyed.

 

To see an aircraft made to the standard came to be expected of DCS modules needs original documentation and/or access to airframe. For less fidelity, things can be interpolated but, for DCS, not sure anything less would suffice.

 

If the design&operation docs of the aircraft were really destroyed, this only leaves the option of still operational aircraft, probably. I think there are some surviving A6M, and I think even one Ki-100. But not too sure on likes of Ki-43 and N1K.

 

Regardless of balance, I'd most definitely love flying a DCS quality A6M anyway, and don't care much about balance myself. Not saying I wouldn't love others of course. Nor am I saying that I don't see concerns for other people who are more into online PvP. But as far as I'm concerned, a Zero would be most welcome regardless of the fact that a late-ish Corsair will outfly it comfortably in capable hands.

[Hiromachi]

You can have balanced and historical (period correct) setups for Japanese as well. In June 1944 Japanese Navy could bring to the table J2M Raiden and Japanese Army had in it's inventory more than similar to Zero, Ki-43, namely Ki-61 and Ki-44. While those are not 1:1 capable aircraft, they are more capable of handling threats such as Hellcat and Corsair.

 

Of course real high performance contemporaries were yet to arrive. Japanese Navy wanted to bring to the Marianas 343rd Ku with N1K1-J fighter, but slow production forced Navy to reequip unit A6M5s.

 

As for the documentation. I would argue that a lot more documentations was destroyed by and because of Americans in 50s and 60s. US Intelligence carried an enormous task of following all combat units and capturing whatever documents were left and translating them. While this effort was somewhat disappointing throughout 1943 due to lack of larger bases being overrun, capturing of Saipan, Tinian and Guam changed this completely as this was a major Japanese Navy HQ in the region and also South Pacific intelligence center. It's hard to comprehend how much documents were then captured and since then until the end of the war US collected a lot more than one may think. This documentation was only partially returned, and decent portion of it was torched in decades following ww2 due to lack of interest.

Japanese themselves have a lot of documents from the period but I think more in private hands than any facilities.

All in all I think that one should not be worried about possibility of having a detailed FM for an aircraft such as A6M. There is enough data to make accurate FM for A6M2 and following versions. There are also flying Zeros. Ask Steve Hinton of Planes of Fame. He frequently rides A6M5 with the only Sakae engine still running.

[xvii-Dietrich]

Probably D4Y from 601st Air Group. Around 6 of them managed to sneak through Hellcats at 3 PM local time and released bombs on Bunker Hill and Wasp.

But to be certain I would have to dive into this: https://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4499229502/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=%E3%83%9E%E3%83%AA%E3%82%A2%E3%83%8A%E6%B2%96%E6%B5%B7%E6%88%A6&qid=1579194426&sr=8-1

But I dont think it ever got translated, even though its the newest and most accurate account on Japanese actions during the battle.

 

 

Great. Thanks.

 

That D4Y is looking a good choice then.

[Akatsuki]

@Hiromachi, is there enough data to model a Suisei?

[Hiromachi]

I've seen engine manuals and diagrams and I know where maintenance manual for it can be found. Famous Airplanes of the World series (Bunrin-do) published few years ago book about Judy with some excerpts from flight manual too. If this flight manual could be found in full, I think having maintenance manual and engine data should be enough to get it running, but there is still question about some systems such as Navy Type 2 sight. Also it would be nice to find any data from design and construction period for detailed FM.

 

If this issues would be overcome I think its totally doable.

[Al-Azraq]

Or at least, I think it should be enough to make a FC3 level japanese plane. I think that many of us will settle with that.

[Akatsuki]

I would take a FC3 level IJN/A aircraft anytime if there’s not enough data to make it full fidelity.

[Snapage]

Is the A6M5 really that bad vs the corsair? Isnt there things the Zero can do better, like sustained turns and maybe climb rate?

[Jester986]

I don't think its so much worse that it would get slaughtered online. It would probably be easy to sucker Corsairs into a turn fight.

[Buckaroo13]

I don't think its so much worse that it would get slaughtered online. It would probably be easy to sucker Corsairs into a turn fight.

 

Mission building too. Corsairs on bombing runs or interdiction will be low where the Zero can shine.

 

Personally, for Japanese planes, I would start with Zero, Val, Kate and Betty. Maybe the Oscar as well. As much as the corsair is my favorite plane of all time I find the naval air battles of 1942 to be much more interesting to simulate as the performance and skill level between sides was a lot closer then later 1944+