Flap setting?

[Orwell]

Flap setting?

 

On a FRESH plane, spawn in the air, I can shoot an approach on the carrier just fine. I land pretty well. I use trim to set up my 8.1 degree approach with onspeed AOA. All good.

 

However, when I take off again (then gear UP, and flaps AUTO) and circle around the carrier for a second approach, I put gear DOWN, hook DOWN, and hit SHIFT+F... I think I have an incorrect flaps setup or something because when I set up in my onspeed AOA, it puts me at a -2200FPM rate of descent. So I speed up, get on AOA and I'm nose at the horizon at 200kts.

 

I don't know what I'm doing wrong with the flaps? Should they be on auto, half or

full?

 

Am I forgetting to "cycle" a system after takeoff? Is my plane stuck in a "mode" I'm unaware of?

[Gierasimov]

Flaps to full and not half. For landing, Shift + F gives you Half flaps maybe? Not sure as I am using HOTAS.

[CBStu]

I haven't done this exactly but on my approaches I go to full flaps. You will see 'FULL' illuminated. Keyboard setups can be strange and different so I'd just say do whatever you have to do to get the FULL light on. Take off is 'HALF'.

[Gierasimov]

Concur!

 

I haven't done this exactly but on my approaches I go to full flaps. You will see 'FULL' illuminated. Keyboard setups can be strange and different so I'd just say do whatever you have to do to get the FULL light on. Take off is 'HALF'.

 

Correct

[Tholozor]

Gierasimov is correct, LShift + F sets the flaps switch to HALF, LCtrl + F sets the switch to FULL.

[Orwell]

One last question....

 

Is there a graceful way to put in the trim required to get on speed AOA after putting the flaps down?

 

When I hit 250kts, I put flaps FULL with CTRL+F (it's working a lot better than SHIFT+F half flaps haha). But then I find that the nose pitches up a lot, and it's a struggle to get my trim into the system in a graceful way.

 

I notice the ideal trim appears on the FCS screen to be 9-10 STAB.

Is there a way to program it to come on with flaps FULL?

 

Right now I'm just pitching down hard and poking my trim in, but it leads to porpoising until I get it settled down. Is there a nicer way to do it?

 

Side question...

 

On VFR straight in Mission, to practice landing, FPS drops from my normal 100+ to 25FPS once I land. Taking off and flying over the sea again, my FPS will only go back to about 50.

 

SHIFT+R, spawns a new plane, and I'm back to 100+fps.

 

What's the issue here?

[Gierasimov]

Way too fast.

At carrier allowed arresting weight of 33000 lbs this is how it works best for me --

230 KIAS - gear down

190 KIAS - flaps half

160 KIAS - flaps full

Then trim for AOA

About 130 KIAS is my AOA descent - however throttle travels back and forth to account for pitching deck / turbulence / wind ..so not really constant speed either

[victorlima01]

this might work in DCS but not correct procedure. Correct procedure is to drop gears and full flaps as soo as 250 is reached during the level break. The aircraft will balloon like crazy and this is something that is expected but not as much as what we currently have (according to two rw sources). You'll really have to maintain fwd pressure on your stick to compensate.

 

About 2.5 to 3 seconds of constant trim should get you very close to AOA/on speed.

 

To be fair to Gierasimov, I used to do it just like he suggests. Much more manageable. But I'm a stickler to rw ops. I'm sure if the jet behaved the way it does in DCS mayeb they'd change procedure to look something like what he's suggesting. So what technique to use really will depend on what you're looking to emulate

Edited March 11, 2020 by victorlima01

[majapahit]

When doing a really short abeam brake, <0.8-1nm TCN/DME at abeam, I dirty up when in the final break at about 230-240knts, gear down, full flaps, hard in the break, when banking that much you do not experience any flaps ballooning, nothing, keep speed up, about 170kts at the start of leveling into the groove or you drop too much, then anticipated cut for targeted onspeed in the groove.

An advantage is, that more often than not, because one can manage the pull on the stick to make this short turn, one levels out with AOA around 8, without having to trim, because de FCS does this for you.

[Vanguard]

Yep, a lot of things have to start going right for the proper procedure to work smoothly. I found after lots of practice that, by properly achieving 250kts during the break-turn, and deploying full flaps while I'm still almost completely horizontal, the "balloon" is obviously diminished and I roll out and trim without too much issue. If I roll out and then hit full flaps, ya... hold on to your hats, she's gonna balloon. Make sure you're dumping throttle on entry to the break turn to ensure you're hitting 250 maybe 3/4 into your turn.

 

@victorlima01, curious to know if this makes sense, I'm not familiar with the documented proc.

[victorlima01]

Yep, a lot of things have to start going right for the proper procedure to work smoothly. I found after lots of practice that, by properly achieving 250kts during the break-turn, and deploying full flaps while I'm still almost completely horizontal, the "balloon" is obviously diminished and I roll out and trim without too much issue. If I roll out and then hit full flaps, ya... hold on to your hats, she's gonna balloon. Make sure you're dumping throttle on entry to the break turn to ensure you're hitting 250 maybe 3/4 into your turn.

 

@victorlima01, curious to know if this makes sense, I'm not familiar with the documented proc.

 

Not really sure this stuff is documented. But it makes sense!

 

What I've learned came from talking to a couple of pilots when they had discord channels. But every time we tried to get them to give us hard numbers or rules to live by they'd say "do some of that pilot sh%$t and get it done safely and expeditiously. And if you think you might be looking bad just point your nose down and become a submarine. :lol: But general rules to live by according to them were: level break at idle +/- boards out at the usual 3.5 to 4gs depending on your airspeed and easing out of the hard turn somewhere in the middle of the break to get you 1.2 to 1.4 abeam depending on weight and aoa onspeed. This easing out was done by feel and looking at the geometry, if that makes sense. In so doing you'd hit 250 somewhere halfway around the break and then immediately dirty up and deal with any ballooning accordingly so as to roll out at 800 and begin descent to 600 on speed and aoa. The lots they flew had the aoa thingy on the hud making trimming for on-speed a breeze, but Ive read here that if you actuate the trim for around 2-3 seconds that'll put you spot on and that's what I've been doing with good results and without having to look at FCS page on the MCPD. On the real bird you'd just feel it trimmed out I guess.

 

One thing I did ask once was regarding what to do when flying lead in a 4-ship which means having to break right at the bow. In my experience "bow breaks" make for a very challenging transition from break to abeam at 600 on speed/aoa, and I was breaking and descending. The answer was that in general level breaks are recommended and you'd do pilot sh*#t to descend accordingly if you were little high at the 180. I'm sure every hornet/rhino driver has his/her preferred technique.

 

Cheers,

Victor

[majapahit]

NATOPS 'proc' is dirty, level and onspeed at the downwind and on point at abeam. But who does that. (I bet that's only the trainees who have to prove a point)

Couple of DCS virtual squadrons insist on flying like that, which is boring and slow, don't join, avoid, you'll be a rookie forever :)

Edited March 11, 2020 by majapahit

[Vanguard]

150 kts for 1 min at the end of a sortie is reason enough to bail on it ? lol

 

This is why most MP servers are worries of the likes of you... bunch of peeps trying to land on a boat, 50% doing it right, 50% doing it "wrong", either way, bad things will happen... ripping downwind, landing straight it, whatever... it will be chaos.

 

That's why this community is so split. Neither side is right or wrong, they are just looking to get different things out of the sim. Bring those two groups to the same party... not a great idea.

[Andrei]

When doing a really short abeam brake, <0.8-1nm TCN/DME at abeam, I dirty up when in the final break at about 230-240knts, gear down, full flaps, hard in the break, when banking that much you do not experience any flaps ballooning

 

Yepp, I follow the same technique usually. When you're still in the break your lift vector is going more to the side, so the ballooning effect is nearly unnoticeable. Once you start leveling our heading to abeam, your speed should drop low enough so that you start losing altitude from 800 to 600. All you need to do is work your thrust and trim to arrest your decent rate to level of at 600.

[CBStu]

If I am doing a straight in approach (Quick Action carrier trap) gear and hook down at 250 but I don't lower flaps til <180. I then go to full so I just have to deal w/ the transition one time. At <180 all the flaps do is slow the plane w/ almost no ballooning. I will start cranking in trim right after that. Trim is 100% adjusted by looking at the E bracket in the HUD. At about 150 I start slowly adding in throttle because, as mentioned above, normal approach will be in the 130-135k range. If doing a pattern approach I am usually flying Banklers training mission. Into the first turn at 350, throttle to idle, 30deg or so of bank, slight back pressure on the stick, and finger on the trim button. I haven't gotten to a stage where I know exactly how long to hold trim because I just switched sticks and have a different trim setup now. Before I get to the boat hook, gear and flaps switches to full down. The hook is all that will drop at that point. flaps and gear won't drop til you drop below 250k. So somewhere in that 180 turn the flaps and gear drop automatically. You may feel somewhat of a bobble but it's not hard to adjust to and maybe 60-70% of the time I don't feel flaps and gear drop at all.

[victorlima01]

NATOPS 'proc' is dirty, level and onspeed at the downwind and on point at abeam. But who does that. (I bet that's only the trainees who have to prove a point)

Couple of DCS virtual squadrons insist on flying like that, which is boring and slow, don't join, avoid, you'll be a rookie forever :)

 

Actually everyone does that, except for the fight lead who breaks the deck at charlie, if he's proficient enough to go for SHB that is. (or anyone thereafter who finds a hole in the pattern to go for shb as well). I used to think that everyone who had the chance would always try to go for a shb. Apparently that is not the case. When a wing begins the deployment guys are usually a bit rusty and are more cautioous.

 

Also, to maintain adequate separation you have to follow these rules and do pilot sh@*&t to adjust as necessary. You can't just break at will, you have to look towards downwind lest you break into someone already there. And soemtimes that means lead will break 1 nm after the bow and -2 and -3 a good deal after that. Dash four might have to spin if it were a 4 ship. So if -3 breaks at 3.5 nm he's obviously going to be at 600' and somewhere around 140kts at the 180 (as a matter of fact maybe a mile before).

 

I don't claim to know these things from firsthand experience, but I've picked the brains of guys who lived it in a daily basis enough!

 

To each his own... it's just a game after all. I like pretending I'm a JG on his first criuse. Majapahit likes to pretend he's Cag. It's all good.

[FightsOn]

The real jet has a trim value that shows up in the HUD when the trim hat is moved. Just hold it aft until 8.1 shows up and the jet is trimmed on-speed. Both Hornet and Rhino have it. Then you’ll just deal with the forward stick pressure until the jet decels to on-speed.

 

ED refuse to implement this even though it is an accurate feature to the real world and would make landing much easier.

 

The other option is to implement BIT Memory Inspect, but that is more involved, and nobody uses it anymore with the new functionality in the HUD.

[Harker]

The real jet has a trim value that shows up in the HUD when the trim hat is moved. Just hold it aft until 8.1 shows up and the jet is trimmed on-speed. Both Hornet and Rhino have it. Then you’ll just deal with the forward stick pressure until the jet decels to on-speed.

 

ED refuse to implement this even though it is an accurate feature to the real world and would make landing much easier.

 

The other option is to implement BIT Memory Inspect, but that is more involved, and nobody uses it anymore with the new functionality in the HUD.

I thought their claim is that was added later than the period they're simulating (2005).

[majapahit]

The real jet has a trim value that shows up in the HUD when the trim hat is moved. Just hold it aft until 8.1 shows up and the jet is trimmed on-speed. Both Hornet and Rhino have it. Then you’ll just deal with the forward stick pressure until the jet decels to on-speed.

 

ED refuse to implement this even though it is an accurate feature to the real world and would make landing much easier.

 

The other option is to implement BIT Memory Inspect, but that is more involved, and nobody uses it anymore with the new functionality in the HUD.

I can remember this was there for a while, only it had a time out which made it less than useful.

When I really want to know I display the FCS page.

[victorlima01]

I can remember this was there for a while, only it had a time out which made it less than useful.

When I really want to know I display the FCS page.

 

This. Also, just hold the trim for 3 seconds. It'll get you pretty close. With just a bit more tweaking once you've decelerated to on-speed you'll be at nominal AOA

[majapahit]

Actually everyone does that, except for the fight lead who breaks the deck at charlie, if he's proficient enough to go for SHB that is.

..

Also, to maintain adequate separation you have to follow these rules and do pilot sh@*&t to adjust as necessary. You can't just break at will, you have to look towards downwind lest you break into someone already there. And soemtimes that means lead will break 1 nm after the bow and -2 and -3 a good deal after that. Dash four might have to spin if it were a 4 ship. So if -3 breaks at 3.5 nm he's obviously going to be at 600' and somewhere around 140kts at the 180 (as a matter of fact maybe a mile before).

 

I don't claim to know these things from firsthand experience, but I've picked the brains of guys who lived it in a daily basis enough!

 

To each his own... it's just a game after all. I like pretending I'm a JG on his first criuse. Majapahit likes to pretend he's Cag. It's all good.

".. to maintain adequate separation ..' separation is done on the upwind, which is not adequately denoted in most images I see on DCS forum.

 

The NATOPS 'US Navy Day case 1 landing pattern' image show the 'level break' upwind at starboard for one (1) F18, here is where the separation is done of the wing, in the 'fantail',

 

not at abeam breaking into final which I see so often. Thus, all wing, timed right of course, can do a fast break at abeam, dirtying up in the base leg turn to final.

 

Problem for the DCS pilot now is to clear the deck in time, as in 7 seconds for the closest separation, but this can be extended to 15sec 30sec whatever beforehand. Also the abeam break into base leg can be delayed if the separation timing appears off, and an LSO can always break in when he expects the deck not to be clear, but that's not the pattern.

 

In RL, most likely indeed these short separation and fast scheiss final will only be done by the resident squadron who are 'in the groove' and have gotten their timing spot on (no one else is allowed probably also, and all this dependent on the commander, and for instance all these brand new F35's probably not allowed to scratch their shiny objects either for quite a while).

[majapahit]

It's a bit more graceful if you're not trying to slam down gear and flaps right as soon as you get under 250 KIAS. Allow the aircraft to slow further (under 200 KIAS), trimming as you slow, before extending flaps and gear.

 

It takes practice and a gentle hand, so don't try to hamfist it. Again, it's all weight dependent, so the dynamics vary infinitely between speed and mass variables, which is why it's not automated in flight control software written in the 70's and only modded since.

Test out the response of the F18 extending flaps when slowing down way below 250kts - and descending, which makes a difference -. Extending half flaps @180 or lower to test so you know behaviour and range, while descending is no problem, when in the groove slowing even further down before full flaps, where you know your trap onspeed is 128-135 depending on your weight, your fuel state, keep in mind F18 extending full flaps will brake the aircraft and you have to anticipate throttle up a tad and that the process is slow, very, and that you need a couple of seconds to set trim, so you need to know how the visual looks like, how your ILS path looks like if on and what the TCN DME read out is if that is on. Throttle up is slow and cut throttle is fast, watch you speed-delta throttling up, don't balloon. All this is the hurry-it-up unofficial straight in procedure, and CASE II-III.

[FightsOn]

I can remember this was there for a while, only it had a time out which made it less than useful.

When I really want to know I display the FCS page.

 

The actual jet times out too...I don’t see how this makes it less useful? Just hold the trim aft to 8.1 then it’s set, and disappears. You shouldn’t need to see it anymore after this?

 

I get that it was added post 2005 (I didn’t fly the Hornet until 2013) but I think it would be a worthwhile concession for usability.

[majapahit]

The actual jet times out too...I don’t see how this makes it less useful? Just hold the trim aft to 8.1 then it’s set, and disappears. You shouldn’t need to see it anymore after this?

I think I remember it triggered when entering dirty config, it timed out - in only couple of seconds - when one did not set the trim (yet)

[FightsOn]

I think I remember it triggered when entering dirty config, it timed out - in only couple of seconds - when one did not set the trim (yet)

 

Ah, it should display whenever pitch trim is changed, stay for 3 seconds, then declutter.