Please, remove unnecessary liveries from DCS builds. Put them in separate packs

[buceador]

On 9/12/2023 at 11:17 AM, Rudel_chw said:

yet there are users who would like to have even more skins:

 

which users group should ED please? … 

 

I believe this has already been answered, create a livery manager - choice is the key word.

On 9/14/2023 at 1:46 AM, SharpeXB said:

Not a great idea because there are hundreds of them. It’s too time consuming to sort through. Like the User Files Skin section, just too much extra work. 
 

You can also get a 2TB SSD these days for $65 so this whole topic isn’t worth worrying about. 

 

That would suggest that your solution to all aspects of PC bloatware would be keep buying bigger storage devices...

[Northstar98]

13 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

and I don't appreciate the users that want to reduce my freedom of choice just so they can save a few dollars of disk capacity.

Well, aren't you in luck? Nothing has been suggested that would do that, even remotely. You'd have exactly as much freedom of choice as you do now and not one bit less.

I don't appreciate users seeking to restrict my freedom of choice, for quite literally, zero reason.

 

And seeing as nobody can just add a few dollars of disk space, you're expecting them to fork out for a new drive to store data they don't want, need, or use, that can be deleted with little to no consequence.

Even if I have plenty of storage space (I do), why should I clutter it up with files I don't need, want or use, that can be deleted with little to no consequence? Why am I storing them in the first place?

Even better, a system is already in place for modules, maps and campaigns that does the exact same thing a livery manager would need to do. Is that reducing your freedom of choice? Is it restricting the standard modules, campaigns and maps?

Some of these campaigns also only represent a few dollars in storage space (if that) and yet there's a system for uninstalling those, so it's not the fact that they take up relatively low amounts of storage space that's the problem here - so why can't it be done with the liveries?

13 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

I'm all the time adding more liveries to my DCS thanks to those users that share them at User Files, and enjoy the choice that they afford me when I edit a mission.

And you still would be perfectly free to do that, if a livery manager was developed. I even suggested that its default behaviour should be to install everything, like what happens now. That way, only the people who don't want that to happen need touch it, for those like you, you'd be hard pressed to tell if its even there.

This comes at no disadvantage to yourself, I don't get why you and several others are perfectly fine with the exact same system for our modules, campaigns and maps, but so opposed to one for the liveries.

12 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

You’re just making this too complicated over $1 of hard drive space. It’s 2023 today not 2012

Sharpe, there's nothing complicated about it - the system already exists it just doesn't for the liveries.

The repair utility is already able to detect which liveries you have/have not installed, it can even tell when the files in those liveries match with what's on ED's internal system and then redownload only what's missing/different. Not only does it do liveries, but it checks (for my installation), nearly 90,000 files in over 10,000 different folders and can do so fairly quickly.

So all the under-the-hood functionality is already done, all we would need is a way to control which files it redownloads.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Northstar98

[Northstar98]

41 minutes ago, buceador said:

That would suggest that your solution to all aspects of PC bloatware would be keep buying bigger storage devices...

Exactly - it's bordering on the mentality of a hoarder.

I somehow doubt that Sharpe downloads random files off of the internet that he doesn't want, need or use, that can be deleted with little to no consequence, because hey, just buy a new drive, they're cheap now, don't you know?

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, Northstar98 said:

Well, aren't you in luck? Nothing has been suggested that would do that, even remotely.

The thread title seems to contradict that.

 

1 hour ago, Northstar98 said:

And seeing as nobody can just add a few dollars of disk space, you're expecting them to fork out for a new drive to store data they don't want, need, or use, that can be deleted with little to no consequence.

 

honestly, if someone believes that just deleting some liveries from his almost full drive, is gonna help him to install a new dcs map or avoid having to upgrade his storage, I’d say that he is kidding himself. Storage units are not eternal, they have to be upgraded before they get full, and they will get full even if you delete some liveries.

 

1 hour ago, Northstar98 said:

This comes at no disadvantage to yourself, I don't get why you and several others are perfectly fine with the exact same system for our modules, campaigns and maps, but so opposed to one for the liveries.

I’m not opposed to a livery manager, have you seen me say otherwise?

But I know that I wouldn’t use it, just as I don’t remove the Campaigns that I have already finished, nor the aircrafts that I have already learned and I’m at the moment no longer flying … I like to have them available the moment the mood strikes and I want to re-fly them.

 

[Northstar98]

On 9/23/2023 at 11:38 AM, Rudel_chw said:

The thread title seems to contradict that.

No it doesn't - the total amount of liveries remains the same, just extra ones needed to be installed.

For the record, I'm not as onboard with that idea, I think any new system should leave it as it is and if people want to delete stuff, then only they should need to use the manager. For those that don't, they need not be concerned with it.

The OP wanted to only have a small amount of liveries installed and the rest in optional packs, the livery manager idea does more-or-less the same thing, but by default leaves things as they are.

Neither option would take away your freedom to have as many liveries as you want and neither option means new liveries don't get developed - nobody is trying to stop you.

On 9/23/2023 at 11:38 AM, Rudel_chw said:

honestly, if someone believes that just deleting some liveries from his almost full drive, is gonna help him to install a new dcs map or avoid having to upgrade his storage, I’d say that he is kidding himself. Storage units are not eternal, they have to be upgraded before they get full, and they will get full even if you delete some liveries.

Okay, great.

Why does that mean I should store data I don't want, need or use, that can be deleted with little to no consequence?

On 9/23/2023 at 11:38 AM, Rudel_chw said:

I’m not opposed to a livery manager, have you seen me say otherwise?

Admittedly I haven't heard you say it explicitly, but then what's prompting the disagreement? In either the OPs case (both the post and the title) or the livery manager wouldn't entail what your argument suggested.

But if you aren't opposed to a livery manager than fine - there's no quarrel then.

On 9/23/2023 at 11:38 AM, Rudel_chw said:

But I know that I wouldn’t use it, just as I don’t remove the Campaigns that I have already finished, nor the aircrafts that I have already learned and I’m at the moment no longer flying … I like to have them available the moment the mood strikes and I want to re-fly them.

Which is and should be your call to make.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Northstar98
Actually finishing a sentence

[SharpeXB]

5 hours ago, buceador said:

That would suggest that your solution to all aspects of PC bloatware would be keep buying bigger storage devices...

This isn’t bloatware, it’s part of the core game. 

5 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

Sharpe, there's nothing complicated about it - the system already exists it just doesn't for the liveries.

The repair utility is already able to detect which liveries you have/have not installed,

Right, it’s already possible to manage this. You can and should be able to purge out unwanted  content from DLC campaigns, user skins and such. But the official skins in the core shouldn’t be alterable since that can be a way of cheating. 

[buceador]

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

This isn’t bloatware, it’s part of the core game. 

I am aware of that, my point, as I'm sure you know, is that buying bigger and bigger storage is not solving what many people see as a problem. 

[Northstar98]

7 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

But the official skins in the core shouldn’t be alterable since that can be a way of cheating. 

Then add it to the integrity checker and provide the option to enforce core liveries at the mission editor's discretion. I've brought this up several times now.

That way, if server hosts/mission designers want to ensure that users have x, y and z core liveries installed in an unaltered state, they have the option to enforce it. If they don't care, then it can be left off, at their discretion.

Once again, the system to do this already exists, it just doesn't exist for liveries.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Northstar98

[SharpeXB]

12 minutes ago, buceador said:

I am aware of that, my point, as I'm sure you know, is that buying bigger and bigger storage is not solving what many people see as a problem. 

Again storage today is very cheap, making this topic rather irrelevant. 

13 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Then add it to the integrity checker and provide the option to enforce core liveries at the mission editor's discretion. I've brought this up several times now.

That way, if server hosts/mission designers want to ensure that users have x, y and z core liveries installed in an unaltered state, they have the option to enforce it. If they don't care, then it can be left off, at their discretion.

Trying to manage these individually per server or mission would cause a big pain for players. Again not worth dealing with because the hard drive space involved is so small. 

[LucShep]

On 5/27/2020 at 4:34 PM, Hardcard said:

Please ED, remove unnecessary liveries from DCS builds, put them in separate packs, for optional download.

(...)

I think it would be better for everybody to keep non-essential liveries as separate packs (faster downloads, less stress on the servers, fewer complaints from me...:lol:).

 

Yep.
That and Taz's Optimized Textures (which became essential for DCS) should be incorporated.



 

[Beirut]

13 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Again storage today is very cheap, making this topic rather irrelevant. 

 

 

Subjective, but still true.

 

A 1TB Samsung 980 Pro NVME is on sale for $99Cdn. ($73US) on Amazon right now. That's pretty cheap for quality and capacity. And 1TB is chunky enough for a lot of DCS content. And good 2TB SSDs - Samsung, Crucial - are in the $150Cdn. and less range. For a vital component, that's not terrible at all.

 

We're either at the stage or close to it where storage space should not be an issue.

[Northstar98]

32 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Again storage today is very cheap, making this topic rather irrelevant.

The only thing that's irrelevant here, is this ^ point, right here. Whether storage is cheap or not, is utterly irrelevant to whether I should store data I don't need, want or use.

Even if I've got loads of storage space (I do), why should I clutter it up with data I don't need, want or use?

Why should anyone buy a new drive so they can store data they don't need, want or use?

How does storage being cheap mean people should store data they don't need, want or use? Answer? It doesn't - it's a non-sequitur, the conclusion doesn't follow from its premise.

I don't fill where I live with things I don't want, need or use, even if I've got space for it. I don't fill up the car I drive with stuff I don't need, want or use even if I've got space for it. I don't download apps on my phone that I don't need, want or use, even though that's got the space for it. So why should I fill my SSD with stuff I don't need, want or use?

Filling whatever up with unnecessary stuff you don't want, just because you can (either you've got the space, or space is cheap), is the mentality of a hoarder.

 

Find a better argument than "storage space is cheap" - it's red herring nonsense that doesn't even begin to justify why I need to store stuff I don't want, that I don't need to store.

32 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Trying to manage these individually per server or mission would cause a big pain for players.

[citation needed]

It's a checkbox Sharpe...

One single checkbox...

I somehow doubt that something as minor as a single additional checkbox is going to cause "a big pain" for players, especially when they only need to interact with it if they see fit.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Northstar98

[Northstar98]

7 minutes ago, Beirut said:

 

Subjective, but still true.

 

A 1TB Samsung 980 Pro NVME is on sale for $99Cdn. ($73US) on Amazon right now. That's pretty cheap for quality and capacity. And 1TB is chunky enough for a lot of DCS content. And good 2TB SSDs - Samsung, Crucial - are in the $150Cdn. and less range. For a vital component, that's not terrible at all.

 

We're either at the stage or close to it where storage space should not be an issue.

Why should anybody, spend any amount of money, on a new drive, just so they can store files they don't want, don't use and don't need to store?

Nobody can seem to answer this one. The only thing I've got so far is "there's the potential to cheat" - which is already perfectly possible already, as a consequence of them not being something the integrity checker checks for; the game doesn't stop you from deleting liveries you don't want, need or use nor does it stop you from making edits to them. The only thing that happens is that it redownloads missing liveries/the originals whenever you update or repair. Fortunately, the core technologies required to facilitate this have already been fully developed to adequately achieve this.

[SharpeXB]

15 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

I somehow doubt that something as minor as a single additional checkbox is going to cause "a big pain" for players, especially when they only need to interact with it if they see fit.

If you tried to join a server which allows all the skins, only these things could happen:

- You get kicked and then have to go install all of these yourself before trying to join again.

- The server pushes all these out to your hard drive.

- You just can’t join the server.

None of these options seem preferable. The better option is to stop worrying about $1 of drive space. 

6 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Nobody can seem to answer this one.

Yeah we can. Stop being worrying about $1 of drive space.

Edited September 23, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Beirut]

1 minute ago, Northstar98 said:

Why should anybody, spend any amount of money, on a new drive, just so they can store files they don't want, don't use and don't need to store?

Nobody can seem to answer this one. 

 

I can: because it's an imperfect sim in an imperfect world. (Except for the Ka-50 which is just glorious!)

 

When you have a sim that takes up several hundred GBs - 550GB in my case, on its own 1TB NVME - there is little merit in canoodling over a few extra GB over thisaway or a few GB over thataway. The truth of the matter is that it's a great big fat honkin' flightsim and takes up a lot of space. Just as we want to/have to have good CPUs and GPUs for DCS, storage space is also on the list of things to keep up to date. 

[Northstar98]

57 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

If you tried to join a server which allows all the skins, only these things could happen:

- You get kicked and then have to go install all of these yourself before trying to join again.

- The server pushes all these out to your hard drive.

- You just can’t join the server.

None of these options seem preferable.

All but the 2nd option is something that already happens with the integrity checker as it is, if it's not a problem already, it won't be so with the liveries, especially if its default behaviour remains as it is now (i.e liveries unenforced).

57 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Yeah we can. Stop being worrying about $1 of drive space.

"Yes we can!" Followed by a complete non-answer, that's been addressed over and over again, only to be totally ignored.

Shocking.

54 minutes ago, Beirut said:

I can: because it's an imperfect sim in an imperfect world. (Except for the Ka-50 which is just glorious!)

And why does that mean that none of the imperfections should be improved?

54 minutes ago, Beirut said:

When you have a sim that takes up several hundred GBs - 550GB in my case, on its own 1TB NVME - there is little merit in canoodling over a few extra GB over thisaway or a few GB over thataway.

Oh, so it's fine to have a system for campaigns (which, some of those are only a few gigabytes and a very small percentage of the install size), but not for liveries?

I mean, clearly if we can remove stuff using manager that's also small and that's not an issue in the slightest and nobody wants to have it removed, then it being small isn't an argument against a livery manager then, isn't it? So we can discard both arguments as being irrelevant nonsense whose conclusion doesn't even follow, can't we?

54 minutes ago, Beirut said:

The truth of the matter is that it's a great big fat honkin' flightsim and takes up a lot of space.

And it would take up less space if there was a way of stopping it from redownloading things you don't need, want or use.

Even if I've got loads of space, why should I store files (even if they're only small files) that I don't need, want or use?

Edited September 23, 2023 by Northstar98
reworded to make more sense

[Exorcet]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Trying to manage these individually per server or mission would cause a big pain for players. Again not worth dealing with because the hard drive space involved is so small. 

I am a player. Not having the option to manage these individually per server or mission is the pain. So I disagree completely, as does a large group of people in this thread.

[Slippa]

I just bought two ssds, 2tb each at over a hundred quid a pop. 

That didn’t come easy as I’m on a budget. Storage isn’t cheap for everyone. I had to save a fair bit to get me in the DCS air at a time when most of the country was forbidden to work and earn anything. My point here is for some, the fact that they have a computer capable of running flight sims with all the peripherals, modules and wotnot doesn’t mean they can afford to spend money without it stinging. We all need storage whatever we do though.

As for the skins, I think the core liveries should be installed whatever. Custom skins are optional. If there are skins in the core I don’t use I don’t delete them but don’t see the harm in having a checkbox to decide what I want to install. When I got started I had DCS stable installed and it’s fat but is par for the course. I installed OB too and had them both for a while before uninstalling one because my C drive got a little sunburnt and went red. It’s fat enough.

I try not to install anything on any device that I don’t want but I don’t take it as far as stripping out parts of the package of things I do want. There’s no need for anything to be taking up space if those things are unwanted. You wouldn’t put up with it if you jumped in your car and it was full of someone’s luggage would you? Unless there was a luxury holiday ticket with it addressed to you, then you’d have the holiday of a lifetime. Nor would you enter your bathroom naked expecting to shower if you found it jam packed with the finest looking dancing girls you ever saw in your life. Ok, I relent. Maybe we would. I need more sleep and like posting when drunk, sleep deprived posting should be avoided for the sake of sensibility.

I’d just like to take this opportunity to wish everyone the cleanest of socks, the brightest of smiles and hope the day is marvellous for all.

 

[Beirut]

4 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

And why does that mean that it should be kept as imperfect?

 

 

Because it will always be imperfect. It's doesn't have to be kept that way, it simply will be.  

 

4 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Oh, so it's fine to have a system for campaigns (which, some of those are only a few gigabytes and a very small percentage of the install size), but not for liveries?

 

If they decide to incorporate it, fine with me. But that does not negate the truth that good high capacity storage is essential for DCS anyway. Anyone running the sim on a 250GB HDD is definitely a man out of time. I just looked on Amazon US and a 1TB Crucial SSD, which is a fine option for DCS, is less than $50. We're getting into non-issue territory. 

 

4 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Even if I've got loads of space, why should I store files (even if they're only small files) that I don't need, want or use?

 

Because life is full of slings and arrows.

 

And there's a point where you're best to just take a bite and chew and not worry too much about the small stuff. 

[Exorcet]

1 minute ago, Beirut said:

Because it will always be imperfect. It's doesn't have to be kept that way, it simply will be. 

Not much point to bringing this up then? The sim being imperfect doesn't warrant giving up on lack of improvements.

Quote

If they decide to incorporate it, fine with me. But that does not negate the truth that good high capacity storage is essential for DCS anyway. Anyone running the sim on a 250GB HDD is definitely a man out of time. I just looked on Amazon US and a 1TB Crucial SSD, which is a fine option for DCS, is less than $50. We're getting into non-issue territory. 

Just because DCS is big that doesn't make small space savings irrelevant. Not everything is 500 GB. If reducing DCS install size from 500 to 480 allows you to install a 20GB thing, then removing 20 GB was beneficial. This remains true no matter how big DCS gets.

Quote

And there's a point where you're best to just take a bite and chew and not worry too much about the small stuff.

When that happens is an individual's choice to make. It seems like you won't benefit much from the ability to free up 10-20 GB or whatever. You're not everyone though.

[Beirut]

4 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Not much point to bringing this up then? The sim being imperfect doesn't warrant giving up on lack of improvements.

 

I'm all for improvements. And if this one is made, fine with me. But I see it as a minor thing. Just my opinion of course. 

 

4 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Just because DCS is big that doesn't make small space savings irrelevant. Not everything is 500 GB. If reducing DCS install size from 500 to 480 allows you to install a 20GB thing, then removing 20 GB was beneficial. This remains true no matter how big DCS gets.

 

Saving space is fine and dandy. no argument. But if a game is in the 500GB +/- zone, then there comes a point where, if the player is "dedicated to the issue", he's going to have a 1TB just for it. We're the nerds and geeks who go from 16GB RAM to 32GB, possibly because of a single map. And then maybe to 64GB because of MP. We do all manner of upgrades for DCS. And as a worker bee I fully understand the value of a dollar. But in the grand scheme of DCS, investing less than the price of a single module for high speed adequate capacity storage is not much of a stretch.  

 

4 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

When that happens is an individual's choice to make. It seems like you won't benefit much from the ability to free up 10-20 GB or whatever. You're not everyone though.

 

No, I am certainly not. 

 

I played DCS on a cold baked potato years ago, and now I have a rig with a 4070 in it. That's a real luxury for me. And in the grand overview of DCS hardware requirements, storage is one area where the fix is easy to install, affordable, and benefits the game as a whole.

 

There are many arguments to made for this and that with DCS, but as far as storage space goes, we need it and we're in a good time and place to make it better for a very fair price.

[Northstar98]

26 minutes ago, Beirut said:

Because it will always be imperfect.

Yes.

What's your point?

26 minutes ago, Beirut said:

It's doesn't have to be kept that way, it simply will be. 

If you improve an imperfection, it won't be as imperfect there, will it?

26 minutes ago, Beirut said:

If they decide to incorporate it, fine with me.

Then as far as I'm concerned, we're done here, there's no argument to be had.

But in that case, why are you seemingly arguing against something if you are by your own admission fine with it being incorporated?

26 minutes ago, Beirut said:

But that does not negate the truth that good high capacity storage is essential for DCS anyway.

But, for however many times I've said it, having a good, high capacity storage drive (which I have), doesn't justify why I should store files I don't want, use or need, that can be deleted with little to no consequences (less so in multiplayer, but definitely so in single player).

I don't know why people keep bringing up this point when it's irrelevant in that it doesn't justify, nor does it follow at all that you should store unnecessary files you don't want or need, because they're small and storage is cheap.

26 minutes ago, Beirut said:

Because life is full of slings and arrows.

Which doesn't justify keeping it full of slings and arrows.

Things simply being the way that they are, doesn't justify keeping them that way, does it?

And if it doesn't justify keeping things the way that they are (especially things that can be improved), then what point are you trying to make here? You're just saying a whole lot of nothing.

Worse, is that this logic is completely useless, if everybody had this mindset nothing would get done, nothing would be improved. No bugs would be fixed, no new features would ever be developed.

Is that what you want?

Edited September 23, 2023 by Northstar98

[Beirut]

Just now, Northstar98 said:

Yes.

What's your point?

 

Just citing reality for its own sake.

 

Just now, Northstar98 said:

If you improve an imperfection, it won't be as imperfect there, will it?

 

Why Northstar, you're a philosopher.  

 

Just now, Northstar98 said:

Why are you arguing against something if you admittedly are fine with it being incorporated?

 

I'm not arguing against the improvement. I'm saying that 10 or 20GB in the size of DCS is a small matter. Literally. 

 

Just now, Northstar98 said:

But, for however many times I've said it, having a good, high capacity storage drive (which I have), doesn't justify why I should store files I don't want, use or need, that can be deleted with little to no consequences (less so in multiplayer, but definitely so in single player).

 

If you have the storage, and the files aren't escaping at night and eating all the food in your fridge, it just seems to be a non-issue. 

 

Just now, Northstar98 said:

I don't know why people keep bringing up this point when it's irrelevant in that it doesn't justify, nor does it follow at all that you should store unnecessary files you don't want or need, because they're small and storage is cheap.

 

I think you just answered your own question. If they change this fine. If they don't, then it rests comfortably at #3481 on the list of desired/required changes for DCS. 

 

Just now, Northstar98 said:

 

And if it doesn't justify keeping things the way that they are (espeically things that can be improved), then what point are you trying to make here? You're just saying a whole lot of nothing.

 

I think the whole matter is a lot of nothing. Hence most of what is said about it will be the same, no?

 

Just now, Northstar98 said:

Worse, is that this logic is completely useless, if everybody had this mindset nothing would get done, nothing would be improved. No bugs would be fixed, no new features would ever be developed.

Is that what you want?

 

I'm not against a "fix". I'm against the idea that it's actually an issue when storage is, in your case, on hand, or can be had on the cheap and is required anyway. 

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Northstar98 said:

All but the 2nd option is something that already happens with the integrity checker as it is, if it's not a problem already, it won't be so with the liveries, especially if its default behaviour remains as it is now (i.e liveries unenforced).

But right now the IC is invisible to players who don’t screw around with their install. Adding livery selections would mean it bugging you constantly. And the only solution to avoiding that would be to acquiesce and just install all the skins. Then you’re back at square one. 
Having skins unenforced is a problem as it means the game is open to cheating. Other CFS games have the official skins locked. 

[Northstar98]

20 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

But right now the IC is invisible to players who don’t screw around with their install.

And it would remain just as invisible to people who don't screw around with their liveries.

If I'm to screw around with the liveries (something I already do), then I just have to deal with the consequences that I won't be able to join servers that require all liveries in an unmodified state to be installed; just as people who run integrity checker breaking mods have to do now. I have a sneaking suspicion that, as someone who 99% of the time plays single player and for the remaining 1% plays on multiplayer servers that I myself host, this won't be an issue for me in the slightest.

What's the problem here?

If you want to play on servers enforcing all the liveries but you want to delete some of them, then you have to weigh up what's more important for you, something that should be entirely your call to make.

20 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Adding livery selections would mean it bugging you constantly.

Why, exactly?

20 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

And the only solution to avoiding that would be to acquiesce and just install all the skins.

There wouldn't need to be a solution, because nothing proposed here would lead to this problem you've just invented.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Northstar98