Revisiting the SAS implementation.

[wess24m]

was brushing up on my A-10C knowledge and ran across an actual hog pilot AMA on reddit. One thing that has seemed off since the beta is the yaw SAS.

 

 

 

"How much do you use the rudder pedals? Are they required for maneuvering or even basic flight? Is finessing a gun aim the only time you would use them? This really bothers me as I want to feel I have basic flying correct, be a good hog pilot, before I really get deep with weapons. Can you recommend a way to learn just flying the hog "by the book" or at least somewhere near properly? I usually sim with civilian aircraft like the 172 in P3D as flying itself is my first love, followed closely by brrting things."

Hog pilot

"I only use the rudder pedals when: steering during taxi, takeoff to stay on my half, landing for crosswind corrections, single engine emergency ops to stay coordinated, and when rejoining to take out some HCA. Quick bank and pitch is how I adjust my gun shots."

 

Will this fixed in the A10C II? As of right now the A10C slips all over the sky without rudder input.

Edited September 14, 2020 by wess24m
links/quotations

[mastersetter]

Honestly, i never use the rudders in flight at all, just a little press puts the jet all over the place. Whether that is accurate or not i have no idea..

[Yurgon]

I put in a bit of rudder for coordinated turns, just like a pilot would in a Cessna 172. Otherwise, the ball indeed slips like crazy. I always assumed that's exactly the way it's supposed to be with an old aircraft like the A-10. But then again I'm not sure whether the yaw SAS should take care of coordinated turns, like the FBW does in the Hornet for example.

[BuzzU]

I use the rudder as much in the Hog as I do in the P-51.

 

In the Viper? Not much.

[Frederf]

The A-10C absolutely has some aileron-rudder-interconnect feature which I guess is a feature of the SAS. Can this be tested right now, checking ARI with and without yaw SAS?

 

The ARI in DCS seems decent as only really drastic banking causes significant slip. For normal standard rate-ish turns it feels like the ARI does the work of coordination for me.

[wess24m]

To be clear this wasn't me asking a question regarding rudder usage in the hog. I'm pointing out that an actual a-10C pilot saying that he uses rudder only in the conditions that he answered in the first post. Not for turn coordination as we have to do now which seem inaccurate.

 

 

 

[BuzzU]

I'm a retired truck driver. I drove an 18 wheeler for 30 years and I only used the clutch to get the truck moving. After that all shifts were made with no clutch. That's not the way the truck was designed to be driven and certainly wasn't by the book.

 

My point is how a real pilot flew the plane doesn't mean that's how the plane was designed to be flown.

[wess24m]

I'm a retired truck driver. I drove an 18 wheeler for 30 years and I only used the clutch to get the truck moving. After that all shifts were made with no clutch. That's not the way the truck was designed to be driven and certainly wasn't by the book.

 

My point is how a real pilot flew the plane doesn't mean that's how the plane was designed to be flown.

 

I'm a current truck driver (and pilot) and I can see the point you're trying to make, but there's no way a single pilot would have no use of the rudder if the hog behaved in the same manner as ours as simulated.

 

In a cessna or any non-fly-by-wire aircraft then yes you have to input rudder. Of all the DCS aircraft with a SAS system the hog is the sole one with this problem of sliding outside the turn.

[Frederf]

Maybe the ARI or yaw SAS isn't performing up to spec but it is doing something. If you fly around without touching the pedals the rudders will move from non-pilot action. And if you turn off yaw SAS that rudder response goes away.

 

The A-10 coordination is quite good when the bank rate is zero. For any steady state turn and I checked up to 135 degrees AOB, it keeps the ball centered without any pedal input. What the SAS isn't that good at is keeping the ball centered during non-zero bank rate. Maybe it should, I don't know.

[BuzzU]

I'm a current truck driver (and pilot) and I can see the point you're trying to make, but there's no way a single pilot would have no use of the rudder if the hog behaved in the same manner as ours as simulated.

 

In a cessna or any non-fly-by-wire aircraft then yes you have to input rudder. Of all the DCS aircraft with a SAS system the hog is the sole one with this problem of sliding outside the turn.

 

You could be right. I may use the rudder when I don't have to out of habit.

[Precog]

Yeah I hope this issue gets addressed. SAS should provide turn coordination..

[QuiGon]

Will this fixed in the A10C II? As of right now the A10C slips all over the sky without rudder input.

It does? I fly the DCS A-10C for almost 10 years now and never noticed. :huh:

It flys absolutely fine without rudder input (unless you're down to one engine).

Edited September 19, 2020 by QuiGon

[Frederf]

Yeah I hope this issue gets addressed. SAS should provide turn coordination..

SAS does provide turn coordination. Try it with yaw SAS on and off and you'll see.

[Kid18120]

Yeah I hope this issue gets addressed. SAS should provide turn coordination..

 

SAS currently DOES provide turn coordination, not sure what you guys are talking about

[Eldur]

I just flew it a few days ago and it does slip tons without rudders, especially on onset. You literally can aim your gun with counter-aileron instead of stepping onto the pedals. It's almost as flying a Horten in another old product that shall not be named.

[wess24m]

I just flew it a few days ago and it does slip tons without rudders, especially on onset. You literally can aim your gun with counter-aileron instead of stepping onto the pedals. It's almost as flying a Horten in another old product that shall not be named.

 

Yup, has a very noticeable pendulum effect that no other SAS enabled aircraft in game. Hopefully this will get looked at. The SAS as of now only provides turn coordination with gentle turns.

[wess24m]

It does? I fly the DCS A-10C for almost 10 years now and never noticed. :huh:

It flys absolutely fine without rudder input (unless you're down to one engine).

 

I bought it the day it came out, has been this way since release. You're prob just used to it, try turning onto a target from orbit, when you turn in with no rudder it will slip outside then when you level out it swings in the direction you were turning. Pendulum effect.

[QuiGon]

I bought it the day it came out, has been this way since release. You're prob just used to it, try turning onto a target from orbit, when you turn in with no rudder it will slip outside then when you level out it swings in the direction you were turning. Pendulum effect.

This works fine for me as well (bold text):

was brushing up on my A-10C knowledge and ran across an actual hog pilot AMA on reddit. One thing that has seemed off since the beta is the yaw SAS.

 

 

Hog pilot"I only use the rudder pedals when: steering during taxi, takeoff to stay on my half, landing for crosswind corrections, single engine emergency ops to stay coordinated, and when rejoining to take out some HCA. Quick bank and pitch is how I adjust my gun shots."

[Eddie]

Quigon, keep a close eye on the slip indicator when making large roll inputs, you’ll see a fair amount of slip (you’ll see the same reflected by the TVV) which should be dealt with by roll SAS. You have to manually counter with rudder to keep things coordinated, this has always been the way since release. As the comment you quoted points out, this shouldn’t be the case.

 

It’s got nothing to do with needing and/or using rudder to line up on a target.

 

The SAS in DCS can handle small roll inputs and smooth turns, but nothing more than that. Because you don’t feel slip in a sim, its easy to ignore/not notice it

[QuiGon]

Quigon, keep a close eye on the slip indicator when making large roll inputs, you’ll see a fair amount of slip (you’ll see the same reflected by the TVV) which should be dealt with by roll SAS. You have to manually counter with rudder to keep things coordinated, this has always been the way since release. As the comment you quoted points out, this shouldn’t be the case.

 

It’s got nothing to do with needing and/or using rudder to line up on a target.

 

The SAS in DCS can handle small roll inputs and smooth turns, but nothing more than that. Because you don’t feel slip in a sim, its easy to ignore/not notice it

Thanks, I see what you mean now :thumbup:

[Gruw]

Yeah I hope this issue gets addressed. SAS should provide turn coordination..

 

In the video Wags released it seems the behaviour of the SAS is way smooth than before.

I'd like to watch the behaviour during some more demanding maneuver as well.

[Frederf]

DCS SAS provides high quality coordination at all banks and near zero bank rate. What it doesn't do very well at all is coordination with significant bank rates. I think that is not communicated very well with the simplistic statement "SAS doesn't work." Perhaps a better statement is that SAS needs to be tuned to handle coordination during transient bank.

[wess24m]

Quigon, keep a close eye on the slip indicator when making large roll inputs, you’ll see a fair amount of slip (you’ll see the same reflected by the TVV) which should be dealt with by roll SAS. You have to manually counter with rudder to keep things coordinated, this has always been the way since release. As the comment you quoted points out, this shouldn’t be the case.

 

It’s got nothing to do with needing and/or using rudder to line up on a target.

 

The SAS in DCS can handle small roll inputs and smooth turns, but nothing more than that. Because you don’t feel slip in a sim, its easy to ignore/not notice it

 

Exactly.