Forward visibility in the F14 SUCKS!!!!!

[VC]

That's what I found most immersive/real with available hardware... until I go VR. Changing fov/zoom to anything wider or narrower breaks it for me by messing with the scale of the world. I can live without peripheral vision for now.

 

That's a very admirable realism goal. For me though, even in VR it's more about not being able to see/read what I would IRL. If the FoV is realistic but in the virtual world I can't see what I would in the real one due to resolution... that's actually not realistic. In the end still need compromise one way or the other.

[QuiGon]

Can't speak for the frontseat, as I'm almost exclusively flying backseat, but there the all around visibility is really awesome. Even the forward visibility is pretty good from there if you raise your head a bit.

[sublime]

well Qui thatd make sense - the backseat is noticeably higher than the front.

this is what OP forgot. it was a 2 man plane. I almost always tally ho first when flying RIO. and i think IRL the same was true, less workload and more time (especially closer where the AWG 9 is more or less out of my hands because PAL/PLM) to just use the mark I eyeball

[captain_dalan]

That's a very admirable realism goal. For me though, even in VR it's more about not being able to see/read what I would IRL. If the FoV is realistic but in the virtual world I can't see what I would in the real one due to resolution... that's actually not realistic. In the end still need compromise one way or the other.

 

Well, he's right. Having flown both VR and flat screen, a FoV angle of about 50-80 degree, gives the most similar detail of spotting as VR does, with the lack of peripheral vision of course. However, like you, i too find that the loss of that peripheral vision is often too detrimental to accept it. Especially when maneuvering and maintaining spatial orientation. So yeah, both cases have their merits. It's why i use that pinky knob. Adjusting the FoV based on the situation. 60 seams like a good default state.

 

Can't speak for the frontseat, as I'm almost exclusively flying backseat, but there the all around visibility is really awesome. Even the forward visibility is pretty good from there if you raise your head a bit.

 

Yeah, and moving the perspective further back, eliminates the perspective distortion that results from having only one, center mounted PoV. If you've seen 3D photos from the inside of the pit, or even camera footage, you'll see the canopy bows look much more like they do (IRL) when looked from the Jester's seat, then from the front (on flat screens).

[sublime]

That's a very admirable realism goal. For me though, even in VR it's more about not being able to see/read what I would IRL. If the FoV is realistic but in the virtual world I can't see what I would in the real one due to resolution... that's actually not realistic. In the end still need compromise one way or the other.

 

ah I see. makes sense

I wont use many 'aids' for the same reason. Theres a limit though - once watching real world fighter jocks play one uncheckd a couple of the crazier realism options on a game. when queried he said 'in a real plane I have advantages I *DONT* have sitting on a screen, no haptic feedback etc, and also, I want to enjoy the game, not WORK.'

 

Not using zoom doesnt seem like WORK but it doesnt seem like a cheat either. but whatever makes you happy bro dont let anyone tell u otherwise

[shagrat]

I've tried TrackIR but just find it very unnatural/disorienting so far - so not using it much.

Give it a little time. Your brain needs to adjust to the "head-eye-movement". Don't try to force it. When you get discomfort, or nausea, stop, take a break and try again after an hour or the next day.

I had my comfort level after 3-5 days, after 2 weeks it really "clicked" and became "natural".

Try exaggerating a bit what you would do IRL when you lean to the side. That helps to watch around the canopy bows.

VR will be more one-to-one headmovement, but needs some getting used to, as well.

[Uxi]

Funny enough but was just reading guys who came from Phantoms praised the excellent visibility from the Tomcat canopy. It's too bad F-14D didn't go to the single piece windscreen that was planned for ST-21.

 

Definitely love the cat in VR. Being able to look around the HUD to see the backup compass is one example that's easy in VR but awkward if not pointless in 2D. The big canopy frame bugs me only in aerial refueling. I still gotta try taking off the HUD cam in trapping, but have gotten used to it. Anything to help with regular 3 wires will be welcome though.

 

Speaking of frames, always thought the Hornet was quite nice... until I tried the Falcon. Frame way behind the pilot is very nice.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Uxi

[captain_dalan]

Funny enough but was just reading guys who came from Phantoms praised the excellent visibility from the Tomcat canopy

 

Yeah, in the Phantom you had to deal with not just the canopy bows, but also with the low recessed cockpit. Everything from the F-14 onward has a raised 360 cockpit.

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

Funny enough but was just reading guys who came from Phantoms praised the excellent visibility from the Tomcat canopy. It's too bad F-14D didn't go to the single piece windscreen that was planned for ST-21.

 

Definitely love the cat in VR. Being able to look around the HUD to see the backup compass is one example that's easy in VR but awkward if not pointless in 2D. The big canopy frame bugs me only in aerial refueling. I still gotta try taking off the HUD cam in trapping, but have gotten used to it. Anything to help with regular 3 wires will be welcome though.

 

Speaking of frames, always thought the Hornet was quite nice... until I tried the Falcon. Frame way behind the pilot is very nice.

 

For AAR, lowering the seat helps me somehow, give it a try.

[sublime]

What was Grumman thinking when they designed the canopy/front windscreen? Clearly not close-in dog fighting as you constantly loose the enemy in the frames when in close - it is INCREDIBLY frustrating when you can't tell which way he is maneuvering.

 

It makes it so much harder (and seemingly unnecessarily so) to dogfight than the windscreen designs of contemporaries like the F15. I'm surprised they never changed that design over the 30 year service life as it would have made a huge difference - I guess the fact that they didn't reflects what they felt was the true mission? Damn shame, though...

 

Any tricks to try working around this? I'm hoping VR in the Reverb G2 might help to be able change head position to look around this mess mighty help keep sight a bit more? I've tried TrackIR but just find it very unnatural/disorienting so far - so not using it much.

 

I challenge you to a dogfight.

I have track ir and hotas thats it.

you can haev any plane you like. ( bear in mind if you take half modelled not full fidelity planes, ill do it, but only full fidelity modelled counts, like the f14 is) me F14.

Ill ROCK you. with the 'sucky' forward viz

[sublime]

Yeah, in the Phantom you had to deal with not just the canopy bows, but also with the low recessed cockpit. Everything from the F-14 onward has a raised 360 cockpit.

 

My dad was a phantom WSO

he said you couldnt see a fckn thing unless dogfighting and looking up or w.e

I dont know if he could lean like I can in RIO and see the pilots front, like his hud etc.

I think the F4 the seat was higher and there was more clutter in the cockpit

the F4 was like as far as they could take it with dials and stuff for sensory overload

the fighterpilots podcast on the F4 is fascinating. Early RWR was literally commercial stuff with suction cups put on the canopy

first LGB was buddy lazed.. by a hand held lazer.

[Koty]

With the F-14 they had to reduce the landing speed as much as possible due to the higher weights (reducing total energy the arresting cable/hook has to absorb). For this they used effectively full span fowler flaps, something not used on fighters anywhere else, which cannot deflect up and as such cannot be used as flapperons. They do however provide much greater lift increase over plain flaps/drooped ailerons (i.e. Hornet). I have never been left wanting more for the roll rate of the Tomcat at any speed.

 

 

Not sure what you're on about, Hornet has fowlers as well...

[Baco]

try sitting in a real live Mirage III ;) LOL

[Vampyre]

Not sure what you're on about, Hornet has fowlers as well...

 

Wrong. The Hornet uses a slotted flap.

[Spurts]

A Fowler flap is on a curved rail that extends back and down and by definition cannot deflect up.

[wadman]

Wrong. The Hornet uses a slotted flap.

Just like the Tomcat which used simple, hinged single-slotted flaps - not fowler flaps.

[Spurts]

Just like the Tomcat which used simple, hinged single-slotted flaps - not fowler flaps.

 

Yes but the way the hinge is designed they cannot deflect upward. In that sense they are similar to fowlers.

 

http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-detail-wingcontrol.gif

[wadman]

Yes but the way the hinge is designed they cannot deflect upward. In that sense they are similar to fowlers.

 

http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-detail-wingcontrol.gif

Are there any modern jets that have flaps that deflect upward? Isn't that what spoilers are for (and for that lift dumping job, they extend/retract almost instantly unlike slowly-driven flaps)?

[r4y30n]

The super hornets have both leading and trailing edge flaps that can deflect upward. Not as much as the down range but more than 0.

[Spurts]

Are there any modern jets that have flaps that deflect upward? Isn't that what spoilers are for (and for that lift dumping job, they extend/retract almost instantly unlike slowly-driven flaps)?

 

On top of what r4y30n said, most modern fighters use what are called Flaperons (F-16, F/A-18, F-22, F-35, Rafale) and no modern fighters use spoilers AFAIK. Some fighters have dedicated flaps inboard (F/A-18, F-22, F-35C, Rafale) of the flaperons while some just use flaperons that are the majority of the span (F-16, F-35A/B). Typhoon and Grippen do not appear to be using flaps or flaperons so they may just be elevons and the Su-57 looks to be a conventional flaps inboard of aileron combo.

[Slant]

I'm hoping VR in the Reverb G2 might help to be able change head position to look around this mess mighty help keep sight a bit more? I've tried TrackIR but just find it very unnatural/disorienting so far - so not using it much.

 

I mean, if you can't move your head around, yeah the visibility sucks. But Grumman had Pilots in mind that were able to move around. It is actually surprisingly good once you (literally) wrap your head around it.