Taz1004 Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 (edited) Yeah, like you tried to explain to me in another thread, that Windows, mirroring a screen directly from the front-buffer of the GPU to a second monitor is exactly the same like the extra VR mirror window on the desktop while having VR running. And that this extra window doesn't need extra VRAM to be rendered on the desktop. (Well it does, because it's copied from the VR screen buffer and stored in the front-buffer for the monitor, of course this takes extra space in VRAM. If more windows are open, the more information needs to be stored in the front-buffer) LMAO, you're bringing the other thread into this one too? That one I stopped responding to you just like this one. That there's no reasoning with you and not worth my time. Not because you are right. You can continue to believe VR mirror take extra resources. Edited October 15, 2020 by Taz1004 Better Smoke - Better Trees Caucasus - Better Trees Syria - Better Trees Mariana - Clear Canopy Glass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealDCSpilot Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 LMAO, you're bringing the other thread into this one too? That one I stopped responding to you just like this one. That there's no reasoning with you and not worth my time. Not because you are right. You can continue to believe VR mirror take extra resources. https://www.bradford.ac.uk/t4-ssis/ruski-files/academic-voice/page_07.htm Please provide evidence then. Real information how stuff works and how it matches your posts. i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eatthis Posted October 15, 2020 Author Share Posted October 15, 2020 well this is really bloody helpful. 2 directly contradictory answers 7700k @5ghz, 32gb 3200mhz ram, 2080ti, nvme drives, valve index vr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svsmokey Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 well this is really bloody helpful. 2 directly contradictory answers About par , isn't it ? :) 9700k @ stock , Aorus Pro Z390 wifi , 32gb 3200 mhz CL16 , 1tb EVO 970 , MSI RX 6800XT Gaming X TRIO , Seasonic Prime 850w Gold , Coolermaster H500m , Noctua NH-D15S , CH Pro throttle and T50CM2/WarBrD base on Foxxmounts , CH pedals , Reverb G2v2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taz1004 Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 (edited) well this is really bloody helpful. 2 directly contradictory answers The answer is in his post. If you actually try to read and understand, you'll see it does not make sense at all. For example, Reverb reports 100% in SteamVR because of it's higher native resolution. Not because of WMR. Other lower resolution WMR HMD will have same issue as Index. He's just passing on his own theory as facts. He's done that on every thread. He believes VR mirror display (not cockpit mirror) hurts performance. Enuf said. Edited October 15, 2020 by Taz1004 Better Smoke - Better Trees Caucasus - Better Trees Syria - Better Trees Mariana - Clear Canopy Glass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathieas Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 So it makes sense to me that each eye on a VR head set needs to be treated as a separate image as each has a different perspective. What i do not understand is why a mirrored display would use more resources... isn't it the same signal just being routed to two places instead of one? If the mirrored screen was a different resolution then I could see this taking more resources for the up or down scaling... but otherwise I am hard press to see where more Vram or processing time would be needed. Full disclosure I am not an expert by any means and I am always looking to learn. Mathieas CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 5800x - Fclk@1800mhz, Mother Board: Asus Crosshair VIII Formula, GPU: 1x 3090 FTW3 Ultra Hybrid, RAM: 2x 16GB G.Skill Trident Z Neo @3600mhz CL14 (B-Die), SSDs(NVME): 1X Samsung 970 EVO Plus 2TB, SSDs(SATA): 1x Samsung 850 Pro 512GB, 1x Samsung 840 Pro 256GB, HDDs: 2x WD 750GB HD in raid 1, Sound: Creative Sound Blaster ZXR, PSU: EVGA SuperNOVA 1000W T2, Monitor(Main): Acer Predator XB271HU (144hz IPS), Monitor(2ndary): Benq XL2420T(120hz TN), OS: Windows 10 pro 64bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taz1004 Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 (edited) So it makes sense to me that each eye on a VR head set needs to be treated as a separate image as each has a different perspective. What i do not understand is why a mirrored display would use more resources... isn't it the same signal just being routed to two places instead of one? If the mirrored screen was a different resolution then I could see this taking more resources for the up or down scaling... but otherwise I am hard press to see where more Vram or processing time would be needed. Full disclosure I am not an expert by any means and I am always looking to learn. Mathieas Your system spends its resources calculating the frames. Not on displaying it. You can mirror your games to multiple displays and wouldn't hurt fps. You can google it. But this is whole another topic and there's another useless thread about it. Some people will believe that it does and there's nothing you can do to convince them otherwise. Edited October 15, 2020 by Taz1004 Better Smoke - Better Trees Caucasus - Better Trees Syria - Better Trees Mariana - Clear Canopy Glass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VirusAM Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 So leaving pd on 1.0 instead of 1.2 and setting ss to 120% will hafe the same graphical effect but shift the load from the cou to the gpu? No...pd of 1.2 is much higher res then ss of 120%. For example pd of 1.4 equals to a SS of about 200%. The pixel density is calculated multiplying horizontal res * pixel density value and vertical res * pd value. While the steam supersampling is calculating multiplying the total pixel count per SS value. Practical example: Base res 2880 horizontal * 1600 vertical (valve index physical res). Pd of 1.2 equals to 3456*1920 = 6.635.520 pixels SS of 120% equals to (2880*1600)*1.2 = 5.529.600 pixels Apart from this difference, there are technicalities that other users can explain better. Usually the standard 100% resolution is different from the real physical res due to lens distortion correction algorithms...so for example for me the valve index reported 100% res is almost 200% of the physical one. So before going crazy with the supersampling values think about your hardware R7-5800X3D 64GB RTX-4090 LG-38GN950 Valve Index VPForce Rhino FFB, Virpil F-14 (VFX) Grip, Virpil Alpha Grip, Virpil CM3 Throttle + Control Panel 2, Winwing Orion (Skywalker) Pedals, Razer Tartarus V2 SpeedMaster Flight Seat, JetSeat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VirusAM Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 LMAO, you're bringing the other thread into this one too? That one I stopped responding to you just like this one. That there's no reasoning with you and not worth my time. Not because you are right. You can continue to believe VR mirror take extra resources. It does...the impact is negligible anyway R7-5800X3D 64GB RTX-4090 LG-38GN950 Valve Index VPForce Rhino FFB, Virpil F-14 (VFX) Grip, Virpil Alpha Grip, Virpil CM3 Throttle + Control Panel 2, Winwing Orion (Skywalker) Pedals, Razer Tartarus V2 SpeedMaster Flight Seat, JetSeat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Trooper Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 I cannot find fault in Alec Delorians' argument here. It is as I find it, PD is just a nightmare for frame rates. Perhaps the technical reasons may be incorrect but the results are spot on and that is all we need. No need to muddy the waters on this topic as far as I am concerned. 1.0 PD is the max! HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me. DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz. Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eaglecash867 Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 I cannot find fault in Alec Delorians' argument here. It is as I find it, PD is just a nightmare for frame rates. Perhaps the technical reasons may be incorrect but the results are spot on and that is all we need. No need to muddy the waters on this topic as far as I am concerned. 1.0 PD is the max! +1. I tried to give the bottom line to the OP back on page 1, but I guess verbosity is what gets peoples' attention. Oh well..:doh: EVGA Z690 Classified, Intel i9 12900KS Alder Lake processor, MSI MAG Core Liquid 360R V2 AIO Liquid CPU Cooler, G.SKILL Trident Z5 RGB Series 64GB DDR5 6400 memory, EVGA RTX3090 FTW3 Ultra 24GB video card, Samsung 980PRO 1TB M2.2280 SSD for Windows 10 64-bit OS, Samsung 980PRO 2TB M2.2280 SSD for program files, LG WH14NS40 Blu-Ray burner. HOTAS Warthog, Saitek Pedals, HP Reverb G2. Partridge and pear tree pending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Big.Biggs Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 No...pd of 1.2 is much higher res then ss of 120%. For example pd of 1.4 equals to a SS of about 200%. The pixel density is calculated multiplying horizontal res * pixel density value and vertical res * pd value. While the steam supersampling is calculating multiplying the total pixel count per SS value. Practical example: Base res 2880 horizontal * 1600 vertical (valve index physical res). Pd of 1.2 equals to 3456*1920 = 6.635.520 pixels SS of 120% equals to (2880*1600)*1.2 = 5.529.600 pixels Apart from this difference, there are technicalities that other users can explain better. Usually the standard 100% resolution is different from the real physical res due to lens distortion correction algorithms...so for example for me the valve index reported 100% res is almost 200% of the physical one. So before going crazy with the supersampling values think about your hardware Our systems are very similar. Would you mind screen shot ing me your steam and in game settings? (Assuming you’re happy with your performance. You can pm if you like. Thanks I9 (5Ghz turbo)2080ti 64Gb 3200 ram. 3 drives. A sata 2tb storage and 2 M.2 drives. 1 is 1tb, 1 is 500gb. Valve Index, Virpil t50 cm2 stick, t50 base and v3 throttle w mini stick. MFG crosswind pedals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taz1004 Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 I cannot find fault in Alec Delorians' argument here. It is as I find it, PD is just a nightmare for frame rates. Perhaps the technical reasons may be incorrect but the results are spot on and that is all we need. No need to muddy the waters on this topic as far as I am concerned. 1.0 PD is the max! Maybe you guys aren't reading what he said. Going higher on the PD setting will start to waste rendered pixels because the panels aren't able to display them 1:1 anyway. This will also cost valuable CPU frametime. Better Smoke - Better Trees Caucasus - Better Trees Syria - Better Trees Mariana - Clear Canopy Glass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taz1004 Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 It does...the impact is negligible anyway He was claiming VR mirror having separate frame buffer and taking 1.4GB of VRAM. Not negligible. Windows took 1.4GB. Having VR mirror on top of it doesn't. Better Smoke - Better Trees Caucasus - Better Trees Syria - Better Trees Mariana - Clear Canopy Glass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealDCSpilot Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 (edited) @Taz1004 Read again, don't twist what i wrote. I was measuring the whole windows desktop taking 1.4GB VRAM on a ultrawide monitor. Every new window aka "running app" on the desktop, takes a bit more VRAM for the Desktop's screenbuffer. That's how Windows GUI works. Every new opened window needs VRAM to get it's content displayed, because it's a 2D plane with graphical elements which need pixels to be drawn and stored somewhere. It doesn't cost "performance" but it needs resources like VRAM. The more windows aka "apps" are open the less VRAM is left for the game. It's a couple of hundred MB per window on a high resolution monitor. The need for a bigger rendered frame to counter lens distortion is common VR technology for every headset: Edited October 16, 2020 by Alec Delorean i9 13900K @5.5GHz, Z790 Gigabyte Aorus Master, RTX4090 Waterforce, 64 GB DDR5 @5600, Pico 4, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with Rhino FFB base made by VPforce, DCS: all modules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taz1004 Posted October 16, 2020 Share Posted October 16, 2020 VR needs more VRAM because it needs to reserve more videomemory for 3 screenbuffers instead of just one (your monitor and 2 additional panels in your HMD). Didn't twist anything. I ignored your distortion argument the first time because it wasn't even relevant. We were talking about why SteamVR reports upscaled resolution as 100%. Not why it upscales it. eatthis' question was if i set the index native res of 1440x1600 its only showing 50% why is that? Anyway, I'm done with this. Hope you don't follow me to another thread and bring this up again. Better Smoke - Better Trees Caucasus - Better Trees Syria - Better Trees Mariana - Clear Canopy Glass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Trooper Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 There is NOTHING free in this world. If the mirror is seen on the monitor then work is being done, no matter how small, it is work best served on my VR Goggs! HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me. DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz. Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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