AIM-54 Changes / new API fixes are live in today's patch

[sparrow88]

PSTT or BRSIT or (ACM cover up with no track or PSTT or PDSTT): LTE 1s (unless STT and angle >15deg then 3s), no loft, active immediately

 

Does that mean that in PSTT we can just fire and forget immidiately, regardless of the range? I assume in case the lock is lost, it would just go straight until its own seeker finds a target?

[Golo]

 

Does that mean that in PSTT we can just fire and forget immidiately, regardless of the range? I assume in case the lock is lost, it would just go straight until its own seeker finds a target?

 

No, I belive target distance has to be less than 10nm for Phoenix to be active of the rail.

[sparrow88]

 

No, I belive target distance has to be less than 10nm for Phoenix to be active of the rail.

 

Just tested that. I fired at a big target from 20 miles in PSTT and broke the lock immidiately. Phoenix went straight for a while then suddelny turned like a GBU when it sees laser and got the bomber.

[Lurker]

ACM cover up should mean that the missile is active immediately off the rail. I believe it will not guide using the AWG9 radar at all in this instance.

[sparrow88]

ACM cover up should mean that the missile is active immediately off the rail. I believe it will not guide using the AWG9 radar at all in this instance.

 

This would be my understanding as well especially since I saw this bit in the docs:

ACM active is commanded when BRSIT (boresight) is selected on the pilot ACM panel, when having the ACM active without a WCS track and when using a non pulse doppler radar mode or TCS track. When using boresight or ACM without a track the missile will launch along the ADL locking onto the first target seen while launching at a non pulse doppler radar track the seeker head will be prepositioned onto that track.

[Lurker]

 

This would be my understanding as well especially since I saw this bit in the docs:

 

That last bit about the TCS track is fairly interesting. It is actually possible to lock (this was confirmed to by a dev, quite a while ago) onto a target , slave your TCS to the target, go radar silent (standby or off) flip your ACM switch and launch at the target. The AIM54 should be looking directly at the target in that case for a higher pk close range shot.

 

Theoretically this could be used to sneak up to an unsuspecting victim, who would be unaware of being launched on until they hear the bip-bip-bip of a 10nm active Phoenix screaming down at them :)

 

You can even get away without using the radar at all, if you have a skilled RIO in the backseat. (Jester AFAIK can not lock a target just using the TCS)

[GGTharos]

ACM cover up should mean that the missile is active immediately off the rail. I believe it will not guide using the AWG9 radar at all in this instance.

 

Correct. The active command is loaded on the rail, as opposed to transmitted in-flight.

[Skysurfer]

 

That last bit about the TCS track is fairly interesting. It is actually possible to lock (this was confirmed to by a dev, quite a while ago) onto a target , slave your TCS to the target, go radar silent (standby or off) flip your ACM switch and launch at the target. The AIM54 should be looking directly at the target in that case for a higher pk close range shot.

 

Theoretically this could be used to sneak up to an unsuspecting victim, who would be unaware of being launched on until they hear the bip-bip-bip of a 10nm active Phoenix screaming down at them :)

 

You can even get away without using the radar at all, if you have a skilled RIO in the backseat. (Jester AFAIK can not lock a target just using the TCS)

 

Yeah but usually at those ranges you have the target already visual and can just yeet the Phoenix boresighted in ACM mode at the guy. The TCS isn't an IRST.

[eatthis]

 

That last bit about the TCS track is fairly interesting. It is actually possible to lock (this was confirmed to by a dev, quite a while ago) onto a target , slave your TCS to the target, go radar silent (standby or off) flip your ACM switch and launch at the target. The AIM54 should be looking directly at the target in that case for a higher pk close range shot.

 

Theoretically this could be used to sneak up to an unsuspecting victim, who would be unaware of being launched on until they hear the bip-bip-bip of a 10nm active Phoenix screaming down at them :)

 

You can even get away without using the radar at all, if you have a skilled RIO in the backseat. (Jester AFAIK can not lock a target just using the TCS)

 

so gettign a lock (thus slaving the tcs to it) then breaking the lock. the phoenix will slave to the tcs? so as long as you keep the tcs in the gimbal limits i can flip the acm switch and fire the phoenix and it will track the tcs lock? wont the bandit get a warning off the rail because the phoenix will be active straight away?

 

 

[Skysurfer]

 

so gettign a lock (thus slaving the tcs to it) then breaking the lock. the phoenix will slave to the tcs? so as long as you keep the tcs in the gimbal limits i can flip the acm switch and fire the phoenix and it will track the tcs lock? wont the bandit get a warning off the rail because the phoenix will be active straight away?

 

 

Yes. The TCS only tells the Phoenix where to look/point its seeker - off the rail the 54 is all on its own.

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

So am i reading this correct ? Phoenix still has 'magic ins' ? Also what's the range (in degrees) of it's onboard radar once it goes active ? Watching some tacviews and it appears to be 180 degrees in all directions. That's not right is it ?

[GGTharos]

So am i reading this correct ? Phoenix still has 'magic ins' ? Also what's the range (in degrees) of it's onboard radar once it goes active ? Watching some tacviews and it appears to be 180 degrees in all directions. That's not right is it ?

 

What are you reading exactly?

 

And is saying 'watched some tacviews' the new scientific standard for reporting a problem?

[SgtPappy]

So am i reading this correct ? Phoenix still has 'magic ins' ? Also what's the range (in degrees) of it's onboard radar once it goes active ? Watching some tacviews and it appears to be 180 degrees in all directions. That's not right is it ?

 

I'm pretty sure it is not 180 degrees. Right now it appears the AIM-54 is not reacquiring at all if there is chaff + beaming in the air. Before the CM resistance was readjusted to today's levels, it would certainly reacquire. I think my tacviews showed roughly 60 degrees in both azimuth and elevation directions (give or take).

 

I have had it reacquire at the very last second and then turn really hard 180 degrees behind the target but I have never ever been shot down one of those if I was the target. Not sure how realistic that behaviour is. After all, the AIM-54 is supposed to fall back to datalink or SARH homing from the AWG-9 if it loses the target so perhaps it is following the datalink and turning around?

[GGTharos]

I have had it reacquire at the very last second and then turn really hard 180 degrees behind the target but I have never ever been shot down one of those if I was the target. Not sure how realistic that behaviour is. After all, the AIM-54 is supposed to fall back to datalink or SARH homing from the AWG-9 if it loses the target so perhaps it is following the datalink and turning around?

 

I could see this for other DL systems but AFAIK the 54 operates in such a way that it adjusts trajectory based on radar returns from the target during TWS. The M-Link tells it where to look and how to adjust the doppler gate, but the missile does the rest. So, turning around due to an M-Link message here is less likely for this missile IMHO, it's just a DCS-ism.

[Harlikwin]

So am i reading this correct ? Phoenix still has 'magic ins' ? Also what's the range (in degrees) of it's onboard radar once it goes active ? Watching some tacviews and it appears to be 180 degrees in all directions. That's not right is it ?

 

Supposedly magic ins is gone.

 

I haven't had a single successful long range engagement with the phoenix-A online yet due to jester not being able to keep a lock on a tanker 30mi away and 10k feet higher than us. But it works fine against maneuvering fighters in Active off the rail mode if you lock them with PAL or other ACM modes, or even just maddoging it.

[dundun92]

So am i reading this correct ? Phoenix still has 'magic ins' ? Also what's the range (in degrees) of it's onboard radar once it goes active ? Watching some tacviews and it appears to be 180 degrees in all directions. That's not right is it ?

 

Magic INS is gone, has been for some time. Seeker gimbals are ±60°. These 180° turns are being caused by datalink telling the missile where to turn (which as GGTharos said isn't realistic for the AIM-54 specifically when outside gimbals, but there's not much HB can likely do in that regard, its just a DCS thing), the seeker isn't actually seeing the target.

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

Can’t speak to all the technical mumbo jumbo but fired 5 hit 5 aim54 today multi player and maybe had 10% hit ratio prior(against ai targets I believe).

on the other hand, couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn with the side winders in just dogfight server and usually have very good luck.

butt meter observation I know but telling for a hack pilot like me....

[SgtPappy]

Can’t speak to all the technical mumbo jumbo but fired 5 hit 5 aim54 today multi player and maybe had 10% hit ratio prior(against ai targets I believe).

on the other hand, couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn with the side winders in just dogfight server and usually have very good luck.

butt meter observation I know but telling for a hack pilot like me....

 

Yes the missile certainly guides better than it did way back before the API update. Back then I could easily roll through 7G rather lazily and the AIM-54 would miss. Notching it seemed easier as well. Chaff appears to be the biggest enemy of the AIM-54 in the tests I did with a friend.

[Lurker]

 

Yeah but usually at those ranges you have the target already visual and can just yeet the Phoenix boresighted in ACM mode at the guy. The TCS isn't an IRST.

 

Well the point is that you acquire the guy at a longer range say 15-20nm, then go radar silent. And use your TCS to sneak up on the bogey, once you feel you have a good firing solution, flip the ACM switch up and let her rip. The TCS is not an IRST but it can be used to good effect in this way.

[SNAFU]

I did some test fligts (rouhly 80+) on different altitudes 1v1 vs ACE AI F-16C and noted down, at which range a AIM54C or AIM54AMk60 hit the Viper in which radar mode. Procedure was always go for max speed, shoot, crank, recommit, shoot until the Viper was hit or I was out of missiles. At the same time I evaded the incoming AIM120C or AIM9X. The results be summarized shown in this table. Red meands Viper was hot most of the time, green flanking or blue cold:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/163D...ew?usp=sharing

 

If you want TacVIEW Files or MIZ files of tests, contact me.

 

 

My Interpretation:

 

> 35.000ft: 2 AIM54C are required for a certain kill shot in PSTT between 40-30nm, while 1 AIM54A is likely to be enough

 

~ 20.000ft: 2 AIM54C and A are required for a certain kill shot in PSTT between 35-35nm, while 2 AIM54A has a slight range advantage

 

~5.000ft: Don´t be there. Range of the AIM54C sinks drastically and 3 C-Missiles are required between 5-10nm for a PK>1, while 2 A-Missiles are needed between 15-5nm in PSTT.

 

 

TLDR:

-AIM54A is better than AIM54C, TWS launches have a PK~0 and only PSTT can hit a fighter like an F-16C. Don´t engage BVR 1v1 below 20.000ft against ACE AI, if you don´t want a fair fight.

 

[QuiGon]

TWS launches have a PK~0

 

I've made similar experiences lately in multiplayer (despite making sure not to loose the target untill 16 TTI). Hit chance of Phoenixes launched in TWS mode has dropped significantly with the recent updates, even when respecting the 16 TTI restriction.

Now I wonder: Why is this? Seems like a pretty big issue to me :huh:

[UWBuRn]

Well, the latest missile changes (complete or not that they are) made missile more reliant on support from the launching platform - as it should be. With the current Jester/AWG-9 combination it's rather easy having issues with TWS or losing PDSTT lock, hence trashing missiles.

 

Yesterday i've been surprised to find out that TWS-A "seems" (as i'm testing with AI, so lot of quirks involved) to perform better against target far away. My typical testing ground is firing at two Veteran MiG-29S at around 30-35 nm angels 20, this ends up almost always with ghost contacts in TWS-A, with missiles trashed. Yesterday i tried engaging them at 50 nm, and, to my surprise, TWS tracks were more stable, with less ghost contacts and with quite a few missile scoring (A Mk60).

 

Overall, up to a certain range, i would say 40-45 miles, the Tomcat-Phoenix combination it's quite effective, punishing unreacting bandits or keeping pressure over them allowing you to keep the initiative. Below 15 miles you have PAL, you tend to go straight in STT and active off the rail or not, Phoenix are rather deadly as it will have a lot of energy. In the middle between 40 miles and 15 miles you are on the weak side, with TWS more prone to screw up, less time to react, high risk of losing of losing PDSTT lock: unfortunately, given the effective range of the AIM-54 it's were you are willing to fire most of the times against fighters.

[QuiGon]

Well, the latest missile changes (complete or not that they are) made missile more reliant on support from the launching platform - as it should be. With the current Jester/AWG-9 combination it's rather easy having issues with TWS or losing PDSTT lock, hence trashing missiles.

 

Jester isn't the issue in my case, as I fly as the RIO myself and make sure to retain TWS lock untill 16TTI. Still, the Phoenix PK has dropped significantly with the past few updates.

 

[SNAFU]

I tested from the RIO seat in SP. MLC out and loss of track untill pitbull.

 

I checke every tacview, in tws and pdstt they loft but guide only after becoming Active.

[UWBuRn]

Jester isn't the issue in my case, as I fly as the RIO myself and make sure to retain TWS lock untill 16TTI. Still, the Phoenix PK has dropped significantly with the past few updates.

 

If you really ask me, AWG-9 it's disappointing many times, i asked a lot of times how much this is accurate or not (i even PMed IronMike) but i didn't got any answer. Reading "thorugh the lines" of other answers in other topics here and there, they say the limitations are accurate, yet there are a few conditions that are somewhat hard to belive.

 

Honestly (look at my registration date), i witnessed ages when missiles behaviour has been much worse than now: yet i know it's frustrating, you do things right and then things completely out of your control (ghost contacts, PDSTT lost lock, weak missile guidance, questionable chaff resistance) screw you up. Personally i would prefer the WCS/missile combination to be more on the overperforming side to concentrate on the tactical aspects - not just for the Tomcat, i mean for every a/c.